NX-01 vs NCC-1701-D

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Post by JME2 »

Stofsk wrote:
Howedar wrote:No, adaptation in its original form was slightly reasonable. It was not a magical technowank ability, it was just trying out several things till something worked.
You mean spontaneously adapting to the deflector dish attack, even though they couldn't have had Picard for very long? It may have been slightly reasonable within limits, say the Borg needing significant time to adapt (and by significant, I mean more than a couple hours); the trouble is, they seemed to adapt quickly. A couple phaser blasts kill a couple drones; the next one has a shield which blocks it easily. A span of minutes from one to the other. :wtf:
But don't forget that given Jouret IV's location and its proximity to Sector 001 (Star Charts helps to confirm this) then, as can be surmised from the opening title placard in Emissary, then at least a couple of days, possibly even a week, passed while the 1701-D chased the Cube to the Federation Core. Who knows? Perhaps the Borg tested those frequencies on their own drones and then modifies their shields as was they saw fit from the results. The truth of it all is that Michael Piller had not written Part 2 when he finished the teleplay for Part 1; he thought that Paramount at that point, I think, would not renew his contract I think and so had left the resolution of the cliffhanger to someone else on the staff.

But here's the fun part: What if Rick Berman had written Part 2, hmm? What then? : :?
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Post by Uraniun235 »

I don't think Berman was actually writing scripts for TNG at that time, and I don't think Braga was around yet, so it would likely have fallen to one of the other regular writers... possibly little Ronnie Moore.

Frankly, where others tend to pooh-pooh the early seasons for being rough, I tend to find them enjoyable because they actually seem more like science fiction and boldly going rather than just another fucking episode of witless boring drama and technobabble. Makes me wonder when Jeri Taylor came onto TNG, as I think Braga was fifth season.
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Post by Stofsk »

Uraniun235 wrote:I don't think Berman was actually writing scripts for TNG at that time, and I don't think Braga was around yet, so it would likely have fallen to one of the other regular writers... possibly little Ronnie Moore.
Makes me wonder when Jeri Taylor came onto TNG, as I think Braga was fifth season.
Berman wrote "Brothers" which was two episodes after BOBW pt2. Braga and Taylor joined the TNG writing staff in season 4 (for some strange reason I keep hearing season 4 was the "best" season of them all :wtf:).

Source: my old battered copy of the ST Encyclopedia. incidentally, U235, Braga didn't write "Rascals." Indeed, he had nothing to do with it - in terms of credit. :?
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Post by Uraniun235 »

Huh... wonder how I got that into my head.

Season 4 had at least a few pretty good episodes. Personally I'd say Season 3 is the best season.
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Post by JME2 »

Well despite the fact that Rascals appealed to fans of age regression, the plot was mediocre at best and feels like a Berman script.
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Post by Stofsk »

JME2 wrote:Well despite the fact that Rascals appealed to fans of age regression, the plot was mediocre at best and feels like a Berman script.
Probably his Dark influence; he is a Sith lord after all. :P

I agree U-235, season 3 is my favourite. It has some of the best episodes in all of TNG: "Yesterday's Enterprise," "BOBW," "The Defector."
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Post by Sarevok »

JME2 wrote:Well despite the fact that Rascals appealed to fans of age regression, the plot was mediocre at best and feels like a Berman script.
Except for the Ferengi part Rasacals was ok. It was not spectacular but not as bad as Voyger either.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
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Post by Jeremy »

Growing up on TNG I never had the joy of watching TOS first (this is similar to wondering what your own language sounds like to foreigners) so I always had presumed that the Romulans were of equal and possibly greater military power than the Federation and Klingons. Was this not the case?

And knowing that the Klingons equated the Russians, who did the Romulans equate? Red China? France?
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Post by JME2 »

Jeremy wrote:Growing up on TNG I never had the joy of watching TOS first (this is similar to wondering what your own language sounds like to foreigners) so I always had presumed that the Romulans were of equal and possibly greater military power than the Federation and Klingons. Was this not the case?

And knowing that the Klingons equated the Russians, who did the Romulans equate? Red China? France?
Yes, from a 60's political viewpoint, they were indeed Red China.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

Stofsk wrote:I agree U-235, season 3 is my favourite. It has some of the best episodes in all of TNG: "Yesterday's Enterprise," "BOBW," "The Defector."
As well as "The Survivors", "The Vengeance Factor", and "Sarek". The whole season is very good on average.
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Post by Stofsk »

Jeremy wrote:Growing up on TNG I never had the joy of watching TOS first (this is similar to wondering what your own language sounds like to foreigners) so I always had presumed that the Romulans were of equal and possibly greater military power than the Federation and Klingons. Was this not the case?
In TOS, I think it was made clear that the Klingons were a greater threat. Probably because we see them more often (they were 'cheaper' than Romulans for the makeup department), and in such situations where it was clear the Klingons and Federation were engaging in a sort of cold war. The Romulans only appeared three times during the entire show, once without even using actors (only stock footage of the Bird-of-Prey firing from multiple angles to give the impression there was a fleet of them).

In "Balance of Terror" we see one Romulan Bird of Prey wipe out IIRC 4 Federation outposts along the neutral zone. Approximately one year later a minor incursion into the neutral zone done at the behest of an idiotic Commodore resulted in the Enterprise being waylaid by a small fleet of bird-o'-preys in relatively short time (this was in "The Deadly Years"). This suggests that Romulans vigourously patrolled their borders, and possibly upgraded their BoPs with warp drive units; meaning the one in "Balance of Terror" was a prototype, and a year or so later the model had been upgraded and gone into mass-production. Approsimately one year after that the Romulans had formed a tentative alliance with the Klingons, gaining at least three D7-class battlecruisers through some means (I'd just assume they bought them). They were equipped with cloaking devices, which was a technology shared with the Klingons.

Now, the whole point of this tiresome history lesson was to point out the rising star that was the Romulan Empire. Assume that the 3 seasons of TOS covered the '5-year mission' of the Enterprise. In year one, the Romulans appear unexpectedly and with a powerful weapon and cloaking device. One or two years later (in the later half of season 2) the Romulans are shown again, this time with a expanded fleet of bird-o'-preys, who would probably be armed with warp drive units (given that there were no bases nearby, it was interstellar space, and the response time was fairly quick IIRC). Finally, 5 years after they reappear (season 3 of TOS), they are armed with battlecruisers that can go mano-e-mano with the Federation's heavy cruisers (the 'connie').

I therefore submit that the Romulans were *not* a power on the rival of the Two Big Ones, the Klingons and Federation, simply because they didn't engage in that sort of rivalry; we don't see a Romulan rep on Tyree's planet for example, trying to arm one faction to takeover the Federation supported camp. However, they were on the rise. Then the Tomed Incident occured and the Romulans retreated behind their borders and presumably spent 80 years (approx.) expanding their empire in the other direction. When they reappeared they were armed with ships that were reputedly superior to the Federation GCS, holding onto greater territory than before (and much of it hidden I'd assume to prying eyes), and never stopped being as cunning and devious as they were before; except now they could engage in the sort of rivalry the Klingons and Federation practiced with each other a century ago.

In comparison, the Klingons had regressed to a patriarchal and fundamentalist society, causing untold damage to it's societal stability (so much so that the 'old ways' of assassination and intrigue returned, where Chancellors could be replaced thanks to poison or dueling, and civil war between the Clans could occur if one side held an advantage over the other). The Federation suffered as well, with no rival to keep them on their toes their ship designs suffered; as has widely been stated the GCS had a lot of bumps that needed ironing out. Federation society also took a nose dive, with it embracing inhuman social engineering programs like putting civilians on warships.

From this I gather that the Romulans rose and rose and didn't stop rising until they could overreach the Federation in certain ares, though not enough to achieve supremacy; the Federation rose to a point and then dipped a little down, but weren't that far away from the Romulans; and the Klingons just sunk from TOS highs to TNG lows. The Federation complacency was addressed and corrected, thanks to Q and the Borg, and a one-sided war with the Cardassians. With the inclusion of that funky detection network, the Romulans prime advantage of the cloaking device was temporarily curtailed. This probably gave enough time for the Federation to get it's shit in gear.

And that was one fucking long essay. My apologies to all who had the endurance to read through it. :oops:
And knowing that the Klingons equated the Russians, who did the Romulans equate? Red China? France?
Red China. And because of that I always thought Vulcans were a hybrid of Japanese and Britains (it's the stiff upper lip mixed with the mystical katra stuff).
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Post by Stofsk »

Uraniun235 wrote:
Stofsk wrote:I agree U-235, season 3 is my favourite. It has some of the best episodes in all of TNG: "Yesterday's Enterprise," "BOBW," "The Defector."
As well as "The Survivors", "The Vengeance Factor", and "Sarek". The whole season is very good on average.
Would I be alone in thinking that season 7 was pretty low in quality? I can't think of that many season 1 or 2 episodes which stood out, but I can think of plenty of season 7 episodes which downright stunk.

That episode where the crew 'devolve' into frogs and canines or some shit. :roll:

That episode where the computer - due to the holodeck - forms self-awareness, and so decides to leave the ship. :wtf:

The episode where Data was impaled by a villager with a metal spike. :wtf: This was also the episode where Deanna took the 'Bridge Command exam'. Although I liked the 'Kobayashi Maru' homage, I hated the fact she could be put into the command chain just by spending a couple hours in the holodeck. She was also a fucking counselor :roll: (of course, adherents to Communist Federation like me consider the good counselor to be the Enterprise's Political Officer. :twisted:)

"Descent pt 2" Lore returns, and turns from being a interesting villain to a pathetic one. Thankfully Data killed him, but damn would it have been special if he was never 'deactivated'. This was also the episode where the Chief Medical Officer was put in command of the ship, so the senior officers could go galivanting around on the surface of a hostile planet. :wtf: :roll: :x

Data's mum turns out to be an adroid as well (a soap opera episode). :roll:

The Geordi episode (another soap opera episode). :roll:

The episode with the shy telepaths and Lwaxana Troi going nuts (yet another soap opera episode). :roll:

"All Good Things" I would have liked it if it wasn't for the constant time-hopping. I never loved time travel in ST, with very few exceptions ("Yesterday's Enterprise" for example).

I liked "Gambit," "Pegasus," "Parallels," "Pre-Emptive Strike" and that "Masks" episode, although I hated the stupid "This artifact is reconfiguring the Enterprise!" idea, but loved the whole "This is a mysterious artifact, and we know fuck all about it" thing. Still, that's 4 episodes and a dodgy 5th. :shock: :o Not good for the last season of the show.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

I agree, Season 7 is the most unwatchable of them all. "Gambit" stands out as IMO one of the better of all the TNG episodes, but even "Pegasus" was pretty heavy on Riker-angst.

Frankly, I think Seasons 1 and 2 are better overall than 6 and 7.
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Post by Stofsk »

Uraniun235 wrote:I agree, Season 7 is the most unwatchable of them all. "Gambit" stands out as IMO one of the better of all the TNG episodes, but even "Pegasus" was pretty heavy on Riker-angst.
Yah. I only liked it because it showed a side to Starfleet I wanted to see - the whole 'black ops' let's cover up our embarassing mistakes oopsie, forget about that treaty we signed etc. Riker is usually a tool, but it was one of the few times he's been portrayed as anything but a yes man.
Frankly, I think Seasons 1 and 2 are better overall than 6 and 7.
Yay! A kindred spirit. ;)
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Post by Gandalf »

I'm going to defy convention and say season 5 was my favourite. It was where the show started to really feel like it had matured.

Redemption 2, Unification, Disaster, The First Duty, The Next Phase and Time's Arrow.

All good eps IMO.
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Post by Stofsk »

Gandalf wrote:I'm going to defy convention and say season 5 was my favourite. It was where the show started to really feel like it had matured.

Redemption 2, Unification, Disaster, The First Duty, The Next Phase and Time's Arrow.

All good eps IMO.
Ugh, they sucked man! ;) Actually I haven't seen "The First Duty" but most of the others I have problems with. Redemption pt 2 showed an absolutely retarded war being fought by space vikings, and a blockade of interstellar space being made by 20 starships. :wtf: Disaster was just "The burning inferno" in outer space. Unification was good, but nothing actually came of it. Spock's movement was reference ONE time afterwards, then quietly dropped. "The Next Phase" was... well, stupid. And "Time's Arrow" put me to sleep. :twisted:

If you had said "The Inner Light" "Darmok" "Powerplay" "Conundrum" and "Ensign Ro" I would have agreed with you.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

Gandalf wrote:I'm going to defy convention and say season 5 was my favourite. It was where the show started to really feel like it had matured.
I don't think you're really defying convention. I've usually felt like I was largely alone in preferring S1-2 over S6-7 (and to a lesser extent S5).

In fact, I think I'm defying convention by saying in a way I prefer the atmosphere of the first three seasons... they tended to have more energetic music, Data was more interesting as a character, and it seemed like they were actually going where no one had gone before, like it was actually an adventure and they were actually going places and doing things, not just episodes of talking heads.

Anyone else wish it was Troi who had bit it in "Skin of Evil" rather than Tasha? I understand the episode was someone's wish for the crew to confront something of pure evil, but I think the episode would have had more impact if after all they had done, they had still failed and Troi died despite their best efforts.
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Post by Stofsk »

Perhaps, maybe if she had died early we wouldn't have heard her yelp "I can sense EVIL! *sob*" every 5 minutes (actually I can't really remember that episode, it was a long while ago). But as I recall, Denise Crosby wanted to move on. Which was why her character was killed of. Didn't she want to pursue a movie career? Look at how that turned out... :roll:
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Post by JME2 »

Uraniun235 wrote:
Gandalf wrote:I'm going to defy convention and say season 5 was my favourite. It was where the show started to really feel like it had matured.
I don't think you're really defying convention. I've usually felt like I was largely alone in preferring S1-2 over S6-7 (and to a lesser extent S5).

In fact, I think I'm defying convention by saying in a way I prefer the atmosphere of the first three seasons... they tended to have more energetic music, Data was more interesting as a character, and it seemed like they were actually going where no one had gone before, like it was actually an adventure and they were actually going places and doing things, not just episodes of talking heads.

Anyone else wish it was Troi who had bit it in "Skin of Evil" rather than Tasha? I understand the episode was someone's wish for the crew to confront something of pure evil, but I think the episode would have had more impact if after all they had done, they had still failed and Troi died despite their best efforts.
My problem with TNG's final season is that, as with the last season of VGR, it didn't really feel like to me that they were moving towards closure, that they were afraid to take risks with those last epiosdes. In TNG's case, obviously because they were getting ready for the movie, in VGR's case, they got home - but that's it; nothing get's resolved (and the VGR relaunch novels - thankfully only two thus far - SUCK. Christie Golden has never been my favorite Trek writer and the Homecoming duology proves it with VGR fighting the Borg YET AGAIN; I think they should put Rick Berman's name on the cover instead of Golden's; it makes more sense that way). Even DS9, as good as the last nine-episode arc was, still left too much unresolved - hence the FAR BETTER relaunch novels.
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Re: NX-01 vs NCC-1701-D

Post by Hardy »

Drooling Iguana wrote: Due to damage incurred during the battle, the Enterprise-D's internal security systems (forcefields, etc) are offline, as are their transporters. However, since they forgot to put fresh explosives in the bridge consoles that morning, all of the crew are still alive.

Will the MACOs be able to overcome their numerical disadvantage and take the ship, or will the gold-shirts prevail?
One thing I noticed about the MACOs (which is incredibly obvious) is that unlike a 24th century security team, the MACOs actually "check their sixes". A MACO element always has a person guarding the rear, just like a modern group of soldiers. the MACOs are also moving quickly and finding as much cover as possible.
On the contrary, a Starfleet security team will march right towards an intruder without any overage of the rear or attempts to find decent cover. How many times have we seen a group of redshirts just run right up to an intruder and get knocked out by weapons fire since they weren't smart enough to find decent cover before engaging the enemy.

MACO weapons are clearly superior to Starfleet weapons as well. MACO weapons are meant to be fired from the shoulder which makes for better aiming as opposed to the Starfleet rifles that are fired from the hip. The ergonomics are clearly more efficient for a number of reasons. The pulse rifle appears to be more sturdy than a Starfleet rifle as well.

Of course the MACOs have their stun grenades which provide instant knockouts and clearing if they happen to be pinned down. The proper use of the stun grenade could effectively knock out Starfleet security personell and allow the MACOs further adavnce owards their target (likely the bridge or engineering). I should hope that the MACOs are smart enough to throw a flashbang in every time they open a door for safety's sake.

So, here is a textbook asessment of both forces according to Sun Tzu's guidelines:

(1) Which of the two sovereigns is imbued with the Moral law?
To get a good answer here, we would have to know why the two ships are engaging each other.
However since the Enterprise D is on the defending side, I doubt there would be as much dissention amongst their crew as there would be on the NX01 for officers who would likely disagree with the NX01 attacking.
(2) Which of the two generals has most ability?
It depends on who we are comparing. Are we comparing Major Hayes to Worf/Yar? Archer to Picard? Major Hayes was educated at West Point, specifically to fight alien species in extraterrestrial and shipborne environments. I don't know too much about Worf or Yar's tactical training, but they are clearly competent. But I will say that Worf is more concerned with his hnor than the security of the ship and redshirts under his command are lost quickly. The same cannot be said for Hayes. The advantage goes to Hayes here.

(3) With whom lie the advantages derived from Heaven and Earth?
The 1701D has the homefield advantage, but I can't say that it can be defended well due to it's design as a luxury ship. The scenario involves all of the defensive mechanisms of the ship being down, so the Enterprise will be dependant on security teams. The layout of the Enterprise was made for easy navigation and comfortable movement, not for defense, so the MACOs just really need to move quickly and adpat quickly to master the "terrain". Another advantage for the MACOs.

4) On which side is discipline most rigorously enforced?
I haven't seen the MACOs get punished for anything other than having a fistfight. Starfleet has less strict procedures for insubordination. The MACOs are quick to follow orders without question. The Redshirts may be able to do the same, but the MACOs 1) don't get shot as often and 2) are more effective.
(5) Which army is stronger?
I've already explained the advantage goes to the MACOs for superior tactics and weapons.
(6) On which side are officers and men more highly trained?
In Starfleet, we note that every crew emeber has been to Starfleet ACademy. Apparently, they don't accept GEDs in Starfleet. I don't know about the MACOs and their education standards. But thee is adifference. The MACOs are a trained combat force. Starfleet Security is just a police force.
Again, the advantage goes to the MACOs
(7) In which army is there the greater constancy both in reward and punishment?
This, I haven't observed enough to come to a conclusion.

In all, the MACOs have gotten five out of the six applicable guidelines. Number seven was a draw since I didn't have enough observations to answer.

Clearly the advantage goes to the MACOs
Howedar wrote:How many MACOs are there? If there were more than, say, two squads then I'd give it to them, assuming they can somehow divine the layout of the E-D.
There are approximately 27 MACOs according to an estimate made by Lee from Phasers.net. The estimation was based on the fact that Enterprise would be removing a third of the crew for the MACOs.
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Post by TurboPhaser »

evilcat4000 wrote:In "Rascals" 7 Ferengi were able to take over the Enterprise by holding the bridge crew hostage so the MACOs stand a good chance if they employ hostage taking tactics.

*snip*.
Yes, that was a might humiliating.

7 Ferengi: Fear our rustbucket ships! We are taking over your ship, and theres nothing you can do about it!
1014 people with an armoury of phasers etc: Okay.


Anyway, The capabilities of the crews are irrelevant. the MACO's are simply outnumbered by a huge amount.

They would be repelled, the E-D gets it weapons on line, and blows up the NX before T'pol can say 'Illogical'.
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