How Star Trek Time travel works:

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Post by Batman »

Admiral_K wrote: Um do you just make shit up when it doesn't fit with the facts?
In Parallels, none of the parallel worlds was "identical" to the other. There were subtle differences in some, but in others there were things far changed. In some, it was something as simple as a picture being moved, or someone being present at a party and another where he wasn't. With infinite realities, such things are possible. Things became gradually more different as we saw universes where Picard was dead, and Riker was captain of the Enterprise. Universes where the Borg succeeded and the Enterprise was heavily damaged. We've also seen other far more radically different universes such as the one seen in Yesterday's Enterprise
, and the numerous episodes based off Mirror, Mirror
"Virtually identical" my ass...
Thanks for proving my point. EVERY LAST ONE of the ships we saw saw was E-d, and thus from a universe easily identified as Trek. As per your 'Many Worlds' theory, what we SHOULD have seen were like 13,000 E-Ds, 4700 E-Es, 13,000 ISD-IIs, 4700 Orion VIIIs, 500 Crest IIIs, 19 LEXXes, 17,000 Galacticas...
For the "Branching timelines theory" as people have been defining it, there would have to have been a time travel element that created each of the 275,000 enterprise universes we saw.
Uh-huh. By all means prove why that can't be. Oh, and as shown above, the very fact that it shows 275,000 universe containing Enterprise-D's seems to favor the branched-timeline theory...
So basically you're arguing they have no clue how time travel works in the first place?
The obviously have an idea of how to do it. But as far as the mechanics of time travel, no they have only the vaguest clue of how it works. I'm sure it appears to them that they are actually "changing history" when the reality is they are merely shifting to parallel worlds which are so nearly identical to the ones they left, they write off any variation of their memories and history as being the result of some strange "temporal anomaly".
A simple 'Yes' would have accomplished much the same, you know...
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Post by Batman »

Oh, and I find it interesting that nothing in the quotes you posted contradicts the 'branching timelines theory', Admiral_K...
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Post by RedImperator »

An illustration of branching timelines:

Code: Select all

 P-----X-----Y  
This is our default timeline. The time traveler's present is point Y. Point X is where he intends to go. Point P is some event that happened prior to X.

To take an example: Point Y is the regular TNG universe on the day the events of Yesterday's Enterprise took place, just prior to when they encountered the temporal rift. Point X is the Battle of Narendra III. Point P is, oh, say, Kirk's encounter with the Gorn.

Code: Select all

 P-----X-----Y
       |
       |-----Y'
Our time traveler successfully goes back to point X and changes history, creating a branching timeline. His home timeline is unaffected. However, he can't return to it, because now he's on the new timeline he created. He returns to the future to find it changed to Y'.

To continue our example: Enterprise-C has been yanked forward in time through the temporal rift. She's saved, but unfortunately, there's no evidence a Federation starship responded to a Klingon outpost's distress call. Relations between the two states decay until war breaks out, a war which the Federation is losing. Point Y' is the day in which the events of "Yesterday's Enterprise" took place, immediately AFTER E-D encounters the rift. The history of the past 22 years is obviously very different. However, if for some reason Captain Garret decided to page through the E-D computer's history files, she'd find that it says Captain Kirk staved off a war with the Gorn by sparing the Gorn captain's life and establishing contact between the Gorn and the Federation.

Code: Select all

 P-----X-----Y
       |
       |-----Y'
       |
       |-----YY
Our time traveler HATES the Y' present, and decides to do something about it. So he returns to point X and alters history again, either by preventing himself from changing history or correcting the results. A new timeline branches off the Y' timeline, and when he returns home, it will be to point YY, which isn't exactly like point Y, but it's close enough for him.

To return to our example: The Y' E-D sends E-C back through the rift, with refreshed torpedo stocks and some repairs, along with Tasha Yar. We don't see what happens to E-C once she returns, but it's quite possible she did better for herself than she did in the Y timeline, which is how there managed to be survivors for the Romulans to capture. At any rate, Tasha Yar, who was an infant on a dying Federation colony at the time of the Narendra incident, is now present as an adult in the battle, and later as the love-slave of some Romulan bigwig. Meanwhile, the Klingons see the Federation helped them, relations improve, war is avoided, and history in the new timeline unfolds about the same way it did before, bringing us to point YY, a future basically like point Y except that there's a Romulan-Human crossbreed with a chip on her shoulder named Sela Yar climbing the Romulan power structure. And history students can still read about how Captain Kirk avoided war with the Gorn by refusing to kill the Gorn captain.

Why do I bring up the Gorn? Because you, Admiral_K, have said several times that because of time travel and many worlds, continunity doesn't matter. You've whined that this thread isn't about Enterprise, but you've trotted out this theory several times in defense of that show, and since it DOES have continunity errors, it makes for a good illustration of what's wrong with your theory.

Basically, ENT is set in a parallel timeline that diverges from the "regular" Trek timeline at the point of first contact with the Vulcans. On this, we don't disagree. And because of that, perfect continunity can't be expected--or should be. The most blatant sign is the design of ENT herself. She bears little resembalance to any known "primitive" Starfleet design, is unseen on the rec room wall in TMP or in Captain Picard's model collection, and shares several design elements with later Starfleet vessels, notably the blue glowing nacelles, which aren't seen in the "real" Trek timeline until U.S.S. Excelsior is launched. The rationalization seems fairly obvious: Cochrane got a look at E-E in orbit, and probably learned some things by talking to LaForge, and he refined his ideas. Thus we see a more advanced NX-01 (and for that matter, a Starfleet before we should have--again, Cochrane could have gotten the idea from the crew of E-E).

So, hooray. Why has this thread gone on this long? Because he's the one part of branching timelines you don't seem to understand or want to understand: events that happened before the divergence are unaffected. And therefore, the consequences of those events are unaffected. Anything not directly changed by the time traveler or the Butterfly Effect remains the same at point Y as it does at point Y' as it does at point YY, and so on ad nauseum. Which means CONTINUNITY DOES MATTER. There is no possible way the events of First Contact could make telepathic Vulcans rare oddities who can catch a fatal brain disease by mind-melding, no more than the E-C jumping ahead 22 years could have made Captain Kirk kill the Gorn captain.

Now, straight up "many worlds" is different.

Code: Select all

P--------X--------Y

P'-------X'-------Y'
        
Q------XX------YY
Our time traveler isn't actually time traveling at all. He travels to a parallel universe where the timeline is at point X, does whatever he cares to, and when he goes to the future, it's point Y' (he could do so merely by accelerating to near lightspeed in realspace and thus conveniently solve any parallel universe problems for the trip back for us). Y' is different because X has been changed--but since this is a parallel universe with no connection to his home timeline, point P might have changed, too (Kirk killed the Gorn). When he goes back to fix the mess he's made, he might be travelling to a parallel universe where X happened but P didn't happen at all (Kirk and Enterprise discovered the Planet of the Bimbos in Miniskirts two weeks before they were to be in Gorn space and haven't been heard from in months).

In this system, Vulcans who catch brain diseses by mind melding are perfectly possible in ENT, because we're not really on the real Trek timeline at all. Here's your first problem: what evidence there is one way or another points against you. Every single Trek incident where they recognized they were traveling to a parallel universe, they stayed on the same point on the timeline--jumped from Y to Y' directly, in other words. In fact, the DS9 mirror universe episodes showed that time in the Mirror Universe flows at the same rate as our universe. Not a single one of the E-D's seen in Parallels was visibly from the past or the future--no shots of crew in first season uniforms, no Galaxy-X modifications. Worf never randomly hopped to a universe further ahead or behind on the timeline. And Worf could be identified as being from another universe--his subatomic particles are out of line with the rest of the universe, something that's never been seen with time travelers, even though such a handy way to identify them would be useful, especially to the likes of Daniels.

Second problem for you, this one from a literary standpoint: if ENT is set in a parallel universe, than it isn't a prequel, even by your loose definition of it, any more than The Lord of the Rings is a prequel for The Hunt for Red October or a series set in the mirror universe in Kirk's time would be a prequel to TNG.

And finally, no, the differences we see in the mirror universe or parallels are NOT enormous. The same people live in them, for Christ's sake. There's nothing that says a parallel universe has to have the same physical laws as ours. That's why it's more likely the parallel universes are actually split from the same timeline and have just started diverging.

In conclusion: the evidence for either is thin, because Trek writers obviously intend for there to be only ONE timeline, and changing events at point X caused point Y to BECOME point Y'. But writer's intent is trumped by visual evidence and simple logic, and logic says most Trek time travel cannot work like that. So we need to find a rationalization. Yours ignores what we know about parallel universes in Trek. It introduces unnecessary extra terms. It makes Enterprise not a prequel. All your insisting that your theory is right and appealing to Mike's authority (who, by the way, makes allowances for BOTH theories in that essay) won't change any of that.
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Post by Admiral_K »

Batman wrote:
Admiral_K wrote: Um do you just make shit up when it doesn't fit with the facts?
In Parallels, none of the parallel worlds was "identical" to the other. There were subtle differences in some, but in others there were things far changed. In some, it was something as simple as a picture being moved, or someone being present at a party and another where he wasn't. With infinite realities, such things are possible. Things became gradually more different as we saw universes where Picard was dead, and Riker was captain of the Enterprise. Universes where the Borg succeeded and the Enterprise was heavily damaged. We've also seen other far more radically different universes such as the one seen in Yesterday's Enterprise
, and the numerous episodes based off Mirror, Mirror
"Virtually identical" my ass...
Thanks for proving my point. EVERY LAST ONE of the ships we saw saw was E-d, and thus from a universe easily identified as Trek. As per your 'Many Worlds' theory, what we SHOULD have seen were like 13,000 E-Ds, 4700 E-Es, 13,000 ISD-IIs, 4700 Orion VIIIs, 500 Crest IIIs, 19 LEXXes, 17,000 Galacticas...
Incorrect. While 275,000 enterprises is quite a lot, it pales in comparison of infinitity. You see, given enough time, the scenario you just envisioned would've happened.
For the "Branching timelines theory" as people have been defining it, there would have to have been a time travel element that created each of the 275,000 enterprise universes we saw.
Uh-huh. By all means prove why that can't be. Oh, and as shown above, the very fact that it shows 275,000 universe containing Enterprise-D's seems to favor the branched-timeline theory...
Given time, the number of "enterprises" or other units would've been infinite. Data stated as much when espousing the problem. And how does this 275,000 was the only number we were given. As time went on, more Enterprises materialized. When trying to rationalize how these parallel universes could exist, Data makes direct refference to the many worlds theory, whereby any outcome that can occur at any point in time, does occur. Parallels is direct evidence of the Many Worlds theory. I can't make it any more plain then that.
So basically you're arguing they have no clue how time travel works in the first place?
The obviously have an idea of how to do it. But as far as the mechanics of time travel, no they have only the vaguest clue of how it works. I'm sure it appears to them that they are actually "changing history" when the reality is they are merely shifting to parallel worlds which are so nearly identical to the ones they left, they write off any variation of their memories and history as being the result of some strange "temporal anomaly".
A simple 'Yes' would have accomplished much the same, you know...[/quote]

I thought I'd be thorough.
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Post by Admiral_K »

Batman wrote:Oh, and I find it interesting that nothing in the quotes you posted contradicts the 'branching timelines theory', Admiral_K...
It wouldn't because the "branching timelines theory" as actually part of the many worlds theory. However, the difference is that with the Many worlds theory, these worlds already exist whereas some people are stating these worlds are actually created by people time traveling. In my mind, thats like people saying the Millenium Falcon actually creates hyperspace rather than simply entering it. Which of the two seems a more feasable explanation?
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Post by Admiral_K »

RedImperator wrote: In conclusion: the evidence for either is thin, because Trek writers obviously intend for there to be only ONE timeline, and changing events at point X caused point Y to BECOME point Y'. But writer's intent is trumped by visual evidence and simple logic, and logic says most Trek time travel cannot work like that. So we need to find a rationalization. Yours ignores what we know about parallel universes in Trek. It introduces unnecessary extra terms. It makes Enterprise not a prequel. All your insisting that your theory is right and appealing to Mike's authority (who, by the way, makes allowances for BOTH theories in that essay) won't change any of that.
I'll cut out your needlessly long winded post, and cut right to the conclusion.

First of all, you've developed an unhealthy obsession with Enterprise. I've barely mentioned it at all, and when I did it was only to coroborate other evidence from the rest of the star trek series. I'll not allow you to drag this off topic. As I said before, if you want to debate something about Enterprise, start a post on it and I'll give it a go.

Now, as for the rest of it, lets look at your charge of "appealing to mikes authority". First, since you don't appear to understand it, a definition of the appeal to authority fallacy:Argumentum ad verecundiam (argument or appeal to authority). This fallacy occurs when someone tries to demonstrate the truth of a proposition by citing some person who agrees, even though that person may have no expertise in the given area. For instance, some people like to quote Einstein's opinions about politics (he tended to have fairly left-wing views), as though Einstein were a political philosopher rather than a physicist. Of course, it is not a fallacy at all to rely on authorities whose expertise relates to the question at handp, especially with regard to questions of fact that could not easily be answered by a layman -- for instance, it makes perfect sense to quote Stephen Hawking on the subject of black holes.

I don't think anyone here will dispute that Mike is an expert on Star Wars, and Star Trek, among other sci fi series. It just so happens, that his essay is just about dead on with my personal views of Star Trek time travel.

What you fail to grasp is, when you have infinite worlds, you can have a world where Kirk goes back and averts the war with the gorn in several different variations, and you'll have others where he kills the gorn and starts a war. You'll have some where Sisko's wife lives well past when the Borg encounter would have occured. Some where Picard was killed in his battle with the Borg.

You say Mike makes allowances for both theories in his essay... Quite honestly, thats only because the branching timelines theory is at the heart of the Many Worlds theory. The main argument is how they are created. The people I'm arguing against seem to think that there are X number of universes, and that whenever someone time travels there become X+1 universes. As if an entire universe is replicated, and then entered by the time traveler. Why this seems more plausible than there simply being an infinite number of parallel universes that the time travelers simply enter is beyond me...

However, even if you think that the ability to create an entirely new universe through time travel is plausible, the branching timelines theory doesn't account for several things. It doesn't explain how Trek characters are able to leave and enter the Mirror universe seemingly at will. It also doesn't explain the existence of the universes as demonstrated in the episode parallels, or Data's explanation of the existence of those universes.

I'm done arguing. I've tried all I can to get through, so if its not enough then so be it. The Many Worlds theory is the best fit for the situation whether you like it or not.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

I don't think I've seen such an obvious example of an arrogant little moron, who couldn't even allow the tiniest little chance that he was wrong enter his head...

Jesus.
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Post by Batman »

Admiral_K wrote: Incorrect. While 275,000 enterprises is quite a lot, it pales in comparison of infinitity. You see, given enough time, the scenario you just envisioned would've happened.
Too bad that under the 'Many Worlds' theory that scenario would have existed from the word GO. It wouldn't have needed 'enough time' to develop. Yet it wasn't present in 'Parallels'-all we see are Ent-Ds...
Given time, the number of "enterprises" or other units would've been infinite. Data stated as much when espousing the problem. And how does this 275,000 was the only number we were given. As time went on, more Enterprises materialized. When trying to rationalize how these parallel universes could exist, Data makes direct refference to the many worlds theory, whereby any outcome that can occur at any point in time, does occur. Parallels is direct evidence of the Many Worlds theory. I can't make it any more plain then that
Then you obiously don't understand the 'Many Worlds' theory. The number of ships is irrelevant, the fact that every last one of them is the Ent-D indicates that all of them come from a timeline that branched off the 'original' Trek timeline.
If 'any outcome that can occur at any point in time, does occur.', there should have been a shitload of other ships there.
NOT. A. SINGLE. OTHER. SHIP. APPEARS. EVER.
I thought I'd be thorough.
Well, you were THAT, I'll give you this much.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Post by Batman »

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I don't think I've seen such an obvious example of an arrogant little moron, who couldn't even allow the tiniest little chance that he was wrong enter his head...
Jesus.
I couldn't agree more.

Admiral_K-
1. Mike is, indeed, very savvy in all things Trek and Wars. Unfortunately for you, about time travel he knows no more than any of us (i.e. nothing), so claiming appealing to him is NOT an appeal to authority won't work.
(Sorry, Mike).
2. The 'branching timeline' theory is NOT 'at the heart' of 'Many Worlds'. It is, indeed, in direct contradiction of it. EITHER there was an infinite number of worlds from the word 'go', OR those timelines are created and 'split off' from the 'master timeline' by someone time-travelling.
3.
"Admiral_K wrote: What you fail to grasp is, when you have infinite worlds, you can have a world where Kirk goes back and averts the war with the gorn in several different variations, and you'll have others where he kills the gorn and starts a war. You'll have some where Sisko's wife lives well past when the Borg encounter would have occured. Some where Picard was killed in his battle with the Borg.
Oh, we know that all right. What YOU don't seem to know(or rather, are willfully ignoring) is THAT WE NEVER EVER SEE ANY OTHER KIND. The above selection shoes an astronomically small selection of available scenarios under the 'Many Worlds' theory. Yet somehow, the plethory of universes that, per 'Many Worlds' should exist and be nothing like the ones we see in Trek somehow never pop up. How come?
5.
Admiral_K wrote: It doesn't explain how Trek characters are able to leave and enter the Mirror universe seemingly at will.
Neither does 'Many Worlds'.
It also doesn't explain the existence of the universes as demonstrated in the episode parallels
It does that just as well as 'Many Worlds', and UNLIKE 'Many Worlds', it also explains why there are no OTHER ships.
, or Data's explanation of the existence of those universes.
Oh my god. Data having no clue what he's talking about. What a novel concept :wtf:
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Post by Admiral_K »

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I don't think I've seen such an obvious example of an arrogant little moron, who couldn't even allow the tiniest little chance that he was wrong enter his head...

Jesus.
Actually, there is the tiniest little chance I'm wrong. However, the evidence tends to point to my being right.
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Post by Admiral_K »

I can't say anything more that hasn't already been said. Believe what you want. There isn't any possible way to prove which of us is right, merely you weigh the evidence and decide which is the most likely theory. Personally, I think the "Many World's Theory" wins out but that's just me.
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