Origin of the Reman Warbird Scimitar

[Uraniun235]

I'm just saying that it should also be close in firepower to a D'Deridex, since there's no point in a fast ship that shows up quickly only to make little difference.

What do you mean, little difference? A D'Deridex was, for some time, slightly better than anything the Federation could throw at it. Even a ship with only 2/3rds the firepower of a D'Deridex would still be a formidable opponent.

If firepower is such a gigantic issue, why does the Federation bother building smaller ships like the Steamrunner or the Saber when they can build big battleships like the Soveriegn?

As I just don't see how a quasi slave could get his hands on that kind of tech from the Romulans.

GEORDI: "Yeah, but how did a Reman become Praetor? I don't get it."
RIKER: "We have to assume that he had Romulan collaborators."
PICARD: "Coup d'etat?"
RIKER: "Praetor's power has always been the Romulan fleet. They must have been behind Shinzon for him to have overthrown the Senate."
PICARD: "What have we learned about Shinzon?"
DATA: "Starfleet Intelligence was only able to provide a partial account of his military record. We can infer he is relatively young and a capable commander. He fought twelve major engagements in the war, all successful. Beyond that we know nothing."

Shinzon wasn't acting alone; he had Romulan backing, and enough of it that he could overthrow the Senate without triggering a civil war throughout the Romulan Empire. He probably made powerful friends in the fleet during the war, especially if he was so talented as to have won twelve major battles in the Dominion War.

The Scimitar was likely constructed in secret by the Romulans in preparation for a war with the Federation (or as a last ditch defense should the Dominion begin to seriously overwhelm the Alliance), whose opening strike would be the sterilization of Earth. Shinzon, known as a highly able commander, may have been given the command of this ship ostensibly in recognition of his abilities and victories, influenced in part or whole by his friends within the Romulan fleet.

[JME2]

Palpatine was the emperor. Tarkin was what, the equivalent of a fleet admiral? Hardly a comparison with my US Navy captain and Shinzon. And the Death Star had already been designed. Getting it built was a matter of materials and labor. The Scimitar's weapon was totally new.

Isn't a Moff more like a political figure? Sort of a local govenor/ruler? Grand Moffs controlling Moffs who control systems.

Yes, but Tarkin knew Palpatine personally from many years before the DS construction; the Essential Chronology and Rogue Planet make that clear. So, he knew him well enough to entrust him with the construction of the station - at least until the Wookies revolted and Vader was sent in.

[JME2]

I'm just saying that it should also be close in firepower to a D'Deridex, since there's no point in a fast ship that shows up quickly only to make little difference.

What do you mean, little difference? A D'Deridex was, for some time, slightly better than anything the Federation could throw at it. Even a ship with only 2/3rds the firepower of a D'Deridex would still be a formidable opponent.

If firepower is such a gigantic issue, why does the Federation bother building smaller ships like the Steamrunner or the Saber when they can build big battleships like the Soveriegn?

As I just don't see how a quasi slave could get his hands on that kind of tech from the Romulans.

GEORDI: "Yeah, but how did a Reman become Praetor? I don't get it."
RIKER: "We have to assume that he had Romulan collaborators."
PICARD: "Coup d'etat?"
RIKER: "Praetor's power has always been the Romulan fleet. They must have been behind Shinzon for him to have overthrown the Senate."
PICARD: "What have we learned about Shinzon?"
DATA: "Starfleet Intelligence was only able to provide a partial account of his military record. We can infer he is relatively young and a capable commander. He fought twelve major engagements in the war, all successful. Beyond that we know nothing."

Shinzon wasn't acting alone; he had Romulan backing, and enough of it that he could overthrow the Senate without triggering a civil war throughout the Romulan Empire. He probably made powerful friends in the fleet during the war, especially if he was so talented as to have won twelve major battles in the Dominion War.

The Scimitar was likely constructed in secret by the Romulans in preparation for a war with the Federation (or as a last ditch defense should the Dominion begin to seriously overwhelm the Alliance), whose opening strike would be the sterilization of Earth. Shinzon, known as a highly able commander, may have been given the command of this ship ostensibly in recognition of his abilities and victories, influenced in part or whole by his friends within the Romulan fleet.

We'll have possible confirmation on Shinzon's Romulan friends at the end of July with the publication of the new anthology "Tales of the Dominion War', which focuses on other aspects of the War that we never saw on screen, from the Invasion of Betazed to the Breen attack on Earth from the POV of TNG and TOS characters.

One of the stories will be about Shinzon's 12 major engagements against the Dominion so we have a chance to see in better terms how he began plotting the coup with the Romulan military.

[Sarevok]

One thing about the Scimitars weapons have bothered me. Picard mentioned that the Scimatar carries 57 disruptors and 27 torpedo launchers. Yet during the battle we never see Scimatar fire so many weapons.

[Sarevok]

MY theory about the Scimitar is this.

Given its clear striking design similarities to Dominion Battlecruisers, it was a Dominion strategic weapons platform that was started to be built towards the end of the Dominion war. Designed as a last ditch weapon to steralise any planets the allied troops had taken or push to the homeworlds and wipe them out.

But the war was halted prior to its completion, when nothing more then the Thealorn weapon and hull frame was complete. Shinzon in his Dominion war campaign stumbles onto the shipyard where it is being built and takes it to a hiddle location. There he finishes the ship with Romulan/Remen technology he obtains throguh his supply line and later sympethetic supporters.

It explains quite a few things given how JH ships have always been technologicaly supperior to Starfleet ships. The Thealron weapon being another advanced Dominion weapon as well as the ships high warp speeds and ability to fire through her cloak.

As I just don't see how a quasi slave could get his hands on that kind of tech from the Romulans.

That is a good theory. The Scimitar may have been a Dominion battlecruiser hull being retrofitted with a Thalaron weapon. The Thalaron weapons shield piercing property is similar to Dominion phased poloron beams. When Shinzon captured it he added the Romulan cloaking technology.

[Uraniun235]

One thing about the Scimitars weapons have bothered me. Picard mentioned that the Scimatar carries 57 disruptors and 27 torpedo launchers. Yet during the battle we never see Scimatar fire so many weapons.

On the other hand, there are phaser emitters on the GCS from which we have never seen phaser fire.

[Metrion Cascade]

I'm just saying that it should also be close in firepower to a D'Deridex, since there's no point in a fast ship that shows up quickly only to make little difference.

What do you mean, little difference? A D'Deridex was, for some time, slightly better than anything the Federation could throw at it. Even a ship with only 2/3rds the firepower of a D'Deridex would still be a formidable opponent.

Not against the Scimitar. Were I Donatra I'd use ships closer to the D'Deridex in firepower than 2/3. And if they weren't at least 90% as powerful as the D'Deridex I'd call for backup. It also bears mentioning that the Norexans aren't much smaller than the D'Deridex in comparison shots from "Nemesis." They should be very close in overall power output, and if they're very close there's no reason they can't carry the same weapons or better ones.

If firepower is such a gigantic issue, why does the Federation bother building smaller ships like the Steamrunner or the Saber when they can build big battleships like the Soveriegn?

The ability to build larger warships doesn't translate into it being cost effective. And considering how rapidly Fed tech seems to be changing in the late 24th century, larger ships that are harder to refit/replace will become obsolete faster. And of course the Federation still has a strong anti-military bias.

As I just don't see how a quasi slave could get his hands on that kind of tech from the Romulans.

GEORDI: "Yeah, but how did a Reman become Praetor? I don't get it."
RIKER: "We have to assume that he had Romulan collaborators."
PICARD: "Coup d'etat?"
RIKER: "Praetor's power has always been the Romulan fleet. They must have been behind Shinzon for him to have overthrown the Senate."
PICARD: "What have we learned about Shinzon?"
DATA: "Starfleet Intelligence was only able to provide a partial account of his military record. We can infer he is relatively young and a capable commander. He fought twelve major engagements in the war, all successful. Beyond that we know nothing."

Shinzon wasn't acting alone; he had Romulan backing, and enough of it that he could overthrow the Senate without triggering a civil war throughout the Romulan Empire. He probably made powerful friends in the fleet during the war, especially if he was so talented as to have won twelve major battles in the Dominion War.

The Scimitar was likely constructed in secret by the Romulans in preparation for a war with the Federation (or as a last ditch defense should the Dominion begin to seriously overwhelm the Alliance), whose opening strike would be the sterilization of Earth. Shinzon, known as a highly able commander, may have been given the command of this ship ostensibly in recognition of his abilities and victories, influenced in part or whole by his friends within the Romulan fleet.

I didn't write the part you're responding to here, but I agree that the Romulan military must have funded the Scimitar's construction.

[Metrion Cascade]

Regarding the lack of additional ships, you should probably consider that Shinzon seemed to have some significant degree of influence over the Romulan military, and border patrol captains are not going to be privy to his plans for galatic domination. So, any reinforcements that Donatra tried to bring along might be just as likely to shoot her in the back as shoot at Shinzon, and those two ships were the only ones she was sure of.

Donatra also had the other commanders and senators to help her out. And even if Donatra isn't sure of the local patrols, they're more likely to attack a Reman ship captained by a human than a commander with a good chunk of the military brass and what's left of the Senate on her side.

[beyond hope]

I like U235's idea of the Valdore as a fast, less heavily-armed equivalent to the light cruiser/destroyer. It would fill a serious gap in the Romulan navy between the D'Deridex and that little scout ship. It would also make sense that that's what Donatra chose to pursue the Scimitar: the Scimitar would have to be faster than a D'Deridex if it's faster than the Enterprise-E, so she'd have to pin it down long enough for D'Deridex reinforcements to arrive on scene.

[Metrion Cascade]

I like U235's idea of the Valdore as a fast, less heavily-armed equivalent to the light cruiser/destroyer. It would fill a serious gap in the Romulan navy between the D'Deridex and that little scout ship. It would also make sense that that's what Donatra chose to pursue the Scimitar: the Scimitar would have to be faster than a D'Deridex if it's faster than the Enterprise-E, so she'd have to pin it down long enough for D'Deridex reinforcements to arrive on scene.

It is a good idea, but the Norexan isn't it. It's too big not to have firepower on par with the D'Deridex. And that having such a ship (a light cruiser like the above theory) is a good idea doesn't mean it should be the only thing you send up against the Scimitar. The Norexan is more likely the Arleigh Burke to the D'Deridex's Spruance class. A newer, more advanced if not much more powerful answer to basically the same role.

EDIT - and its size is a major disadvantage in fitting the role of light cruiser. The Norexans did boast good, almost fluid maneuverability (better than the E-E), but they were still too damned big to be anything but a replacement for the D'Deridex.

[Uraniun235]

Were I Donatra I'd use ships closer to the D'Deridex in firepower than 2/3.

Maybe she didn't have a choice? Maybe the ships she took were the only ones fast enough?

And if they weren't at least 90% as powerful as the D'Deridex I'd call for backup.

Who says there was backup to be called? At least, backup that would engage the Scimitar and not her own forces?

It also bears mentioning that the Norexans aren't much smaller than the D'Deridex in comparison shots from "Nemesis." They should be very close in overall power output, and if they're very close there's no reason they can't carry the same weapons or better ones.

But how much of that mass is going towards warp propulsion? And I'm not too convinced that the Norexans are so comparable in mass to the D'Deridex warbirds.

And, who needs comparison shots when we have production material?
Comparison drawing of Scimitar, Valdore, and Enterprise

[Metrion Cascade]

Were I Donatra I'd use ships closer to the D'Deridex in firepower than 2/3.

Maybe she didn't have a choice? Maybe the ships she took were the only ones fast enough?

From Romulus, maybe. But both sides have Neutral Zone patrols.

And if they weren't at least 90% as powerful as the D'Deridex I'd call for backup.

Who says there was backup to be called? At least, backup that would engage the Scimitar and not her own forces?

Donatra had several high ranking commanders and what was left of the Senate on her side. And even if the ship commanders didn't trust her, they'd trust Shinzon and the Remans less.

It also bears mentioning that the Norexans aren't much smaller than the D'Deridex in comparison shots from "Nemesis." They should be very close in overall power output, and if they're very close there's no reason they can't carry the same weapons or better ones.

But how much of that mass is going towards warp propulsion? And I'm not too convinced that the Norexans are so comparable in mass to the D'Deridex warbirds.

Their wingspan was greater than the E-E's length. And the D'Deridex is largely open space (less so than the Norexan). It looks a lot bigger than its actual volume or mass. But you're right - the Norexan's nacelles are fucking huge, even compared to those of the D'Deridex.

And, who needs comparison shots when we have production material?
Comparison drawing of Scimitar, Valdore, and Enterprise

It's not canon, but it looks about right. Er...I don' t know...the shot of the one ship's severed wing hitting the E-E makes it look a little smaller than in the drawing. Maybe 20% smaller.

One thing...the Scimitar looks better and better to me (from a purely visual standpoint) every time I see it. And it doesn't remind me of anything the Dominion fielded.

[Metrion Cascade]

Question...how good would you say DITL's estimate of the D'Deridex's length is?

[Solauren]

ACtually, Scimitar looks ALOT like the FASA Winged Defender Romulan Star cruiser.

[seanrobertson]

Question...how good would you say DITL's estimate of the D'Deridex's length is?

Hmm...a long time ago, he used to run with an approx. length of 1,280m. But didn't he apply _DS9 TM_ stuff to all his ship pages awhile back?

[seanrobertson]

In any event, I can tell you this about the different Warbird length figures I've heard:


1,041m, from the _TM_. This scaling was based on a chart from the _ST Encyclopedia, Vol.2_. Unfortunately, the chart was rife with errors, and a number of figures based on it turned out wacko.

Support for this figure--? I'm told fleet shots in DS9 episodes like "Tears of the Prophets" and perhaps "By Inferno's Light" show Warbirds at or smaller than this size. I've yet to see vidcaps supporting that claim, however.


~1,280m. I'm not sure of the exact source for this; fans had the idea that the D'Deridex-class was "roughly twice the size of a GCS" or "twice as long" and ran with it. (Some say this originates from "The Neutral Zone," but I'll have to check the transcripts.)

Support--Again, while this probably fits shots like we see in "The Defector" and "The Neutral Zone," I've never seen evidence presented.


1,341m. Andrew Probert, the dude who designed the ship, says she's 4,400 feet long.

Support--Maybe "The Neutral Zone," "The Defector," "Contagion" et al. Without a ton of very good vidcaps we still don't know for sure


Take your pick

[Metrion Cascade]

Question...how good would you say DITL's estimate of the D'Deridex's length is?

Hmm...a long time ago, he used to run with an approx. length of 1,280m. But didn't he apply _DS9 TM_ stuff to all his ship pages awhile back?

I don't know about all of them (especially since the Defiant has been in scenes that made it look anywhere from 70m to 300m), but the length he uses for the D'Deridex now (1041.65 m) is from the DS9 tech manual. Which I'd expect him to throw out were it contradicted by anything he'd seen onscreen. If one accepts that figure, it makes the D'Deridex probably twice the volume of the Norexan (and bigger than the Scimitar). But it also makes the D'Deridex a really shitty design for not being more powerful than the Scimitar at its size. If the D'Deridex is as big as DITL says it is, and only outstripped the E-D in terms of frontal firepower (not even overall firepower), then the Norexan may simply be their attempt at fixing horrid design mistakes made with the D'Deridex. That or Romulan tech is well behind Fed tech and they can only make up for it with sheer industrial capacity.

[Metrion Cascade]

In any event, I can tell you this about the different Warbird length figures I've heard:


1,041m, from the _TM_. This scaling was based on a chart from the _ST Encyclopedia, Vol.2_. Unfortunately, the chart was rife with errors, and a number of figures based on it turned out wacko.

Support for this figure--? I'm told fleet shots in DS9 episodes like "Tears of the Prophets" and perhaps "By Inferno's Light" show Warbirds at or smaller than this size. I've yet to see vidcaps supporting that claim, however.


~1,280m. I'm not sure of the exact source for this; fans had the idea that the D'Deridex-class was "roughly twice the size of a GCS" or "twice as long" and ran with it. (Some say this originates from "The Neutral Zone," but I'll have to check the transcripts.)

Support--Again, while this probably fits shots like we see in "The Defector" and "The Neutral Zone," I've never seen evidence presented.


1,341m. Andrew Probert, the dude who designed the ship, says she's 4,400 feet long.

Support--Maybe "The Neutral Zone," "The Defector," "Contagion" et al. Without a ton of very good vidcaps we still don't know for sure


Take your pick

If any of these figures are correct, then the Romulan fleet is about 80 years behind Starfleet technologically.

In terms of overall firepower (NOT frontal):

Scimitar > E-E > E-D > D'Deridex

In terms of size, if any of the above figures are right:

D'Deridex > Scimitar > E-D > E-E

The D'Deridex is the biggest and the weakest. Does this mean they're built by the lowest bidder and Norexans aren't? Or that Norexans have roughly the same power to volume ratio as the D'Deridex, and somehow Shinzon built a ship decades ahead of anything the Romulans could build?

Looks to me like the D'Deridex's tech is actually rather obsolete by Romulan and Fed standards and they just have too many to phase out (or are too broke to build more Norexans and Scimitars, so only higher ups can get them). Donatra took two of her best ships, ships more modern than the D'Deridex and with a power to volume ratio more on par with that of the E-E or the Scimitar. Mind you, they should have put up a better show than they did. Despite being bigger than the E-E they were crippled in a fraction of the time. Apparently they're closer to the E-E in tech than the D'Deridex is, but the Scimitar is still well ahead of the Romulan military's best work. Maybe the Tal'Shiar funded the Scimitar?

[Uraniun235]

From Romulus, maybe. But both sides have Neutral Zone patrols.

Patrols which have been out of the loop of the internal strife at Romulus and would still be operating under the assumption that they're to protect the Praetor and not rebel against him.

And even if the ship commanders didn't trust her, they'd trust Shinzon and the Remans less.

So if they didn't trust Shinzon, why did they back him in the first place?

Besides, Shinzon is now the Romulan Praetor. This would be like asking a fighter squadron to intercept and fire upon Air Force One; you really think they'll follow such an order that easily?

But it also makes the D'Deridex a really shitty design for not being more powerful than the Scimitar at its size.

Uh, we have little idea of just how old the D'Deridex class is. IIRC, the Ent-C was stated to have engaged "warbirds" at Norendra 3, and if those were D'Deridex warbirds, that would put the D'Deridex design at at least two decades older than the Galaxy class. Considering how much progress has been made in Federation weapons and shield technology between the Ent-C and the Ent-E, is it really so incomprehensible that the D'Deridex may just be an old design with old technology?

[Metrion Cascade]

From Romulus, maybe. But both sides have Neutral Zone patrols.

Patrols which have been out of the loop of the internal strife at Romulus and would still be operating under the assumption that they're to protect the Praetor and not rebel against him.

He's a human on a Reman ship they've never seen before. And he's firing on Romulans. If they don't know about the shakeup (there's no reason they shouldn't if the Federation does), then Shinzon isn't the Praetor to them. Hiren is. And if they do know about it, chances are most of them are staying loyal to this commander or that Senator.

And even if the ship commanders didn't trust her, they'd trust Shinzon and the Remans less.

So if they didn't trust Shinzon, why did they back him in the first place?

Besides, Shinzon is now the Romulan Praetor. This would be like asking a fighter squadron to intercept and fire upon Air Force One; you really think they'll follow such an order that easily?

No, it's not. Our president isn't brought to power by force of arms wielded by people with no more political authority than anyone else who wants the seat. And our military isn't run by brass who don't answer to anybody. And you suggested that they don't know about the shakeup, meaning they won't se the Praetor. Just a human on a ship full of Remans, attacking Romulans.

But it also makes the D'Deridex a really shitty design for not being more powerful than the Scimitar at its size.

Uh, we have little idea of just how old the D'Deridex class is. IIRC, the Ent-C was stated to have engaged "warbirds" at Norendra 3, and if those were D'Deridex warbirds, that would put the D'Deridex design at at least two decades older than the Galaxy class. Considering how much progress has been made in Federation weapons and shield technology between the Ent-C and the Ent-E, is it really so incomprehensible that the D'Deridex may just be an old design with old technology?

There's no canon evidence of the warbirds at the Narendra 3 incident being D'Deridexes, but I do find it likely. The class is clearly not on par with anything else in the Alpha Quadrant in terms of power to size ratio. A modern ship the size of the Norexan should be more powerful than the D'Deridex, since other smaller ships of the same decade (built by pacifists) are.

[Jeremy]

Like Chris said, perhaps it was a captured Dominion design. A Dominion shipyard that was pocketed would be an excellent way to keep the Scimitar's construction hidden from the public eye.

[JME2]

Like Chris said, perhaps it was a captured Dominion design. A Dominion shipyard that was pocketed would be an excellent way to keep the Scimitar's construction hidden from the public eye.

The question of course is where that shipyard was located. The two obvious possibilities are near Romulan territory (since 'In the Pale Moonlight' established that the Jemmies were using the RNZ from which to launch raids against the Feds) or in a Romulan protectorate of what was Cardassian territory (My bet's the Orias system given its shipbuilding abilities as seen in 'Defiant'.) But yes, I also think given the dorsal similarities, it was a Dominion craft.

[seanrobertson]

If any of these figures are correct, then the Romulan fleet is about 80 years behind Starfleet technologically.

In terms of overall firepower (NOT frontal):

Scimitar > E-E > E-D > D'Deridex

I hate to nitpick, but I have to say this...

I agree Scimitar and the E-E rank above the other two, but I'm not sure I'd rate the E-D's overall firepower as greater than a D'Deridex's.

Before anyone says so, I already know the common belief is that a GCS makes up for a fwd. firepower deficiency with better firing arcs/coverage

I think that sounds nice, but I've never seen proof to that effect. More specifically, I don't dispute GCS's own weapons coverage, which is well-document; I just don't know that the Warbird's port, starboard and aft are as undergunned as some suggest. (A quick look at "Contagion" actually shows the former two quarters are covered; a midship disruptor fires at an Iconian probe and destroys it at least as easily as the E-D's phasers did. Since we've never seen a target behind a Warbird, how would we know their aft is poorly armed?)


Anyhow, I apologize for not addressing the rest of your post, Metrion. It's bedtime, and I wanted to get the above out of the way before proceding anyway I'll get to the rest as soon as I can.

[Sarevok]

D'Deridex > Scimitar > E-D > E-E

I believe the Enterprise-E is longer than the Enterprise-D. The Enterprise-E was mentioned to be nearly 700 meters long by Picard in First Contact. On the other hand the Enterprise-D appears to be around 600 meters long judjing from the visuals.

[Uraniun235]

The Ent-D is approximately 640 meters long. While the Ent-E is longer, it has only twentysomething (since the number of decks on that fucking ship can't seem to remain constant... and then you've got that fucking bottomless pit in Nemesis, god damn that cinematic atrocity and the dipshit who concieved it for all eternity) decks compared to the Ent-D's 42 decks. I would suggest that the Ent-D has a greater internal volume.

I agree Scimitar and the E-E rank above the other two, but I'm not sure I'd rate the E-D's overall firepower as greater than a D'Deridex's.

People point to incidents where the Warbirds really nailed the Ent-D in a matter of seconds, but we still don't know what a GCS could do to another GCS in the same amount of time... nor do we know whether a Warbird could take that same amount of punishment. I personally suspect that in a duel it would come down to whomever got the first shot in... but that's just me.

He's a human on a Reman ship they've never seen before. And he's firing on Romulans. If they don't know about the shakeup (there's no reason they shouldn't if the Federation does), then Shinzon isn't the Praetor to them. Hiren is. And if they do know about it, chances are most of them are staying loyal to this commander or that Senator.

...who is Hiren?

And I'm not suggesting that they're that out of the loop so as to not know about Shinzon... I'm suggesting they're unaware of the decision by Donatra and co. to overthrow Shinzon before he wrecks the Romulan Empire with a war it doesn't need.

And wouldn't you think they would have friend-or-foe signals in the 24th century? Eyes-only bulletins to the Romulan commanders informing them of a new ship class that is to be considered friendly?

And you suggested that they don't know about the shakeup

By "shakeup" I meant the decision by Shinzon's Romulan allies to backstab him.

There's no canon evidence of the warbirds at the Narendra 3 incident being D'Deridexes, but I do find it likely. The class is clearly not on par with anything else in the Alpha Quadrant in terms of power to size ratio. A modern ship the size of the Norexan should be more powerful than the D'Deridex, since other smaller ships of the same decade (built by pacifists) are.

I would have thought that my "if those were D'Deridex warbirds" disclaimer was enough, but apparently it wasn't.

On the other hand the Enterprise-D appears to be around 600 meters long judjing from the visuals.

Really? Compared to what? And how did you get the length for the object you compared it to?