Impulse drive

[Alyeska]

"Best of Both Worlds PT2" TNG. In this episode the Enterprise comes out of warp near Saturn and is told they can intercept the Borg cube in less then 30 minutes. The last known location of the Borg ship was Mars. Using the closest orbital approach the Enterprise had to be moving at FTL speeds, yet it was at impulse.

Assuming of course that at some point they didn't go to warp some time during the process.

They specicicaly excited warp near saturn and did not reenter warp with Wesley giving the time estimate. Wesley's estimate was that of the E-D moving at Impulse power.

[Gil Hamilton]

They specicicaly excited warp near saturn and did not reenter warp with Wesley giving the time estimate. Wesley's estimate was that of the E-D moving at Impulse power.

And they could have re-entered it off camera. Which is a better explaination, assuming that Wesley's ETA was right.

(A) They briefly went to warp to make up some of the time.
(B) They somehow went faster-than-light on a drive known to be a fusion drive.

(A) makes a hell of alot more sense. After all, it was an emergency. They didn't have time to go pissing through the solar system.

[Alyeska]

They specicicaly excited warp near saturn and did not reenter warp with Wesley giving the time estimate. Wesley's estimate was that of the E-D moving at Impulse power.

And they could have re-entered it off camera. Which is a better explaination, assuming that Wesley's ETA was right.

(A) They briefly went to warp to make up some of the time.
(B) They somehow went faster-than-light on a drive known to be a fusion drive.

(A) makes a hell of alot more sense. After all, it was an emergency. They didn't have time to go pissing through the solar system.

A does not fit the facts. That assumes Wesley gave an ETA bassed on a speed at which they were not going. Furthermore this makes then completely incompetent for not going using Warp all the way into the system.

B fits the facts. They exit warp. They are at Impulse speed and accelerating towards the Borg. Riker asks an ETA, Wesley gives it. Your "theory" assumes incompetence and things happening of screen that there is no evidence to support.

[Gil Hamilton]

A does not fit the facts. That assumes Wesley gave an ETA bassed on a speed at which they were not going. Furthermore this makes then completely incompetent for not going using Warp all the way into the system.

B fits the facts. They exit warp. They are at Impulse speed and accelerating towards the Borg. Riker asks an ETA, Wesley gives it. Your "theory" assumes incompetence and things happening of screen that there is no evidence to support.

We do have evidence for them briefly going to warp, and that is that Wesley's ETA doesn't make sense they did not. How can a ship travel faster than light on a fusion drive?

Besides, there were none of the earmarks of real faster than light travel on the part of the Enterprise, like Cherenkov radiation due to them travelling faster than light in that medium (vacuum). Or time travel, for that matter. I can see it. "We seemed to have arrived before we left, sir! We are ahead of the Borg cube!" Neat trick.

[Alyeska]

=We do have evidence for them briefly going to warp, and that is that Wesley's ETA doesn't make sense they did not. How can a ship travel faster than light on a fusion drive?

You have no evidence of them going to warp. You are making the assumption that Wesley was giving an ETA for a speed at which they were not going with a drive system that was not turned on while not telling any of this to Riker. Furthermore had they been going at Warp they would have done so MUCH faster then just Warp 1.2. They dropped out of warp and used Impulse power. If they were going to use warp to get to the inner system, they would have done so without dropping out of warp near Saturn to begin with.

Besides, there were none of the earmarks of real faster than light travel on the part of the Enterprise, like Cherenkov radiation due to them travelling faster than light in that medium (vacuum). Or time travel, for that matter. I can see it. "We seemed to have arrived before we left, sir! We are ahead of the Borg cube!" Neat trick.

And now your not making any sense.

[Gil Hamilton]

You have no evidence of them going to warp. You are making the assumption that Wesley was giving an ETA for a speed at which they were not going with a drive system that was not turned on while not telling any of this to Riker. Furthermore had they been going at Warp they would have done so MUCH faster then just Warp 1.2. They dropped out of warp and used Impulse power. If they were going to use warp to get to the inner system, they would have done so without dropping out of warp near Saturn to begin with.

Then how exactly do you explain them actually meeting that ETA on a fusion drive and without any earmarks of real faster than light travel (see below)?

And now your not making any sense.

No, I'm making perfect sense. Even assuming they managed to somehow break the speed of light (a tricky problem due to relativity), there are certain things that would happen.

One is that the Enterprise would glow visibly due to production of Cherenkov radiation. See, when a particle moves faster than light in a certain medium, it produces bits of radiation. This can be confirmed in experiments where the speed of light is particularly low due to the medium. Vacuum is no different. When the Enterprise travel faster than light in a vacuum, is should have been producing the stuff. Did you see the Enterprise glowing visibly when it was moving? I did not.

Another is causality. Going by special relativity, a particle or a spaceship that travels faster than light should be travelling backwards in time. This leads to jokes about FTL radar giving returns before the ping is sent. If the Enterprise was actually honest to god travelling faster than light, it should have arrived at it's destination before it had left in the first place. Did we see any evidence of weird time shit going on? I didn't, but it would be a neat way to beat the Borg to Earth.

[Ender]

Since impulse is a form of ion drive it should have other speeds as well besides one quarter, half and full impulse. Perhaps this speeds very commonly used standard speeds so we dont hear about other speeds.

Impulse engines can't possibly be ion drives unless they're shooting globs of lead out. The only way they could reach even 1/4 c is to use mass litening,

Wanna bet? Keep in mind what an Ion engine is and how it works. I can easily pull relativistic velocities in one, so long as I have a shitton of power to pour into it. We get low acceleration using kilowatts, and a few grams of fuel, yes. But use terawatts or higher to pump out a few tons of fuel at 99% of C and you can get some high acceleration.

[Alyeska]

Then how exactly do you explain them actually meeting that ETA on a fusion drive and without any earmarks of real faster than light travel (see below)?

Again your not making any sense. How come these earmakrs don't exist for Warp eh? Do we even know that Impulse drives are purely fussion drives? We know that Starfleet loves to use all sorts of odd technology in with its other tech. We know that Warp Cores are more then just simple M/AM reactors for starters. Now you assume that Impulse must react one specific way and can't go FTL when the available evidence indicates other wise.

No, I'm making perfect sense. Even assuming they managed to somehow break the speed of light (a tricky problem due to relativity), there are certain things that would happen.

Somehow manage to break the speed of light? OMG this is funny. Do please continue. (Need I remind you that Warp breaks the speed of light?)

One is that the Enterprise would glow visibly due to production of Cherenkov radiation. See, when a particle moves faster than light in a certain medium, it produces bits of radiation. This can be confirmed in experiments where the speed of light is particularly low due to the medium. Vacuum is no different. When the Enterprise travel faster than light in a vacuum, is should have been producing the stuff. Did you see the Enterprise glowing visibly when it was moving? I did not.

You did not see the Enterprise glow like this because we never saw the Enterprise in transit you dimwit.

Another is causality. Going by special relativity, a particle or a spaceship that travels faster than light should be travelling backwards in time. This leads to jokes about FTL radar giving returns before the ping is sent. If the Enterprise was actually honest to god travelling faster than light, it should have arrived at it's destination before it had left in the first place. Did we see any evidence of weird time shit going on? I didn't, but it would be a neat way to beat the Borg to Earth.

So should we throw out Warp since its impossible as well?

Gil, your humor is a little dry. Your claiming FTL isn't possible in one hand and claiming they used Warp FTL in another.

[Gil Hamilton]

Again your not making any sense. How come these earmakrs don't exist for Warp eh? Do we even know that Impulse drives are purely fussion drives? We know that Starfleet loves to use all sorts of odd technology in with its other tech. We know that Warp Cores are more then just simple M/AM reactors for starters. Now you assume that Impulse must react one specific way and can't go FTL when the available evidence indicates other wise.

Even if it's not purely a fusion drive it doesn't matter. Nothing can actually accelerate past the speed of light. See below for more on this. The point is that it makes for more sense that they used the Warp Drive to cross some of that distance than making up a unknown mechanism that does the same thing, which is what you are doing. It's like this:

Me: "They used the warp drive, a mechansim design to propel a ship that is pushed by an impulse drive to move faster than light relative to it's environment, to cross the distance in the time Wesley described."
You: "They used an unknown device which is not the warp drive but does the same thing to propel a ship that is pushed by an impulse drive to move faster than light relative to it's environment to cross the distance in the time Wesley described."

See the difference? We already know that the Warp Drive exists and can do exactly what you described. Making up a new unknown mechanism to do the same thing is pointless.

Somehow manage to break the speed of light? OMG this is funny. Do please continue. (Need I remind you that Warp breaks the speed of light?)

That's the thing. The Warp Drive doesn't accelerate past the speed of light. It warps space, scrunching it up ahead of the ship and expanding it behind (at least that's the last thing I've heard on literature based on how the warpdrive actually works), allowing the ship to cross vast distances without actually travelling faster than light itself. Without the warpdrive, a StarTrek ship can't cheat relativity.

You did not see the Enterprise glow like this because we never saw the Enterprise in transit you dimwit.

Sure we do, we see it when they shoot past Saturn and on approach to the Borg Cube itself. No glowing there.

So should we throw out Warp since its impossible as well?

Gil, your humor is a little dry. Your claiming FTL isn't possible in one hand and claiming they used Warp FTL in another.

Apples and oranges. The Warp Drive isn't actually making the ship travel faster than light, it's "cheating" by warping space for the same effect, so there wouldn't be casuality weirdness. At least that's what the official literature on the matter says.

[Alyeska]

Even if it's not purely a fusion drive it doesn't matter. Nothing can actually accelerate past the speed of light. See below for more on this. The point is that it makes for more sense that they used the Warp Drive to cross some of that distance than making up a unknown mechanism that does the same thing, which is what you are doing. It's like this:

Me: "They used the warp drive, a mechansim design to propel a ship that is pushed by an impulse drive to move faster than light relative to it's environment, to cross the distance in the time Wesley described."
You: "They used an unknown device which is not the warp drive but does the same thing to propel a ship that is pushed by an impulse drive to move faster than light relative to it's environment to cross the distance in the time Wesley described."

See the difference? We already know that the Warp Drive exists and can do exactly what you described. Making up a new unknown mechanism to do the same thing is pointless.

Your still under the assumption that the Impulse drives are purely fussion. Furthermore your making the assumption that they did something not stated. Why drop out of warp to get a time estimate for a speed your not going and then go back into warp at a slower speed then you were previously traveling? The implications are very clear. They are traveling at Impulse.

That's the thing. The Warp Drive doesn't accelerate past the speed of light. It warps space, scrunching it up ahead of the ship and expanding it behind (at least that's the last thing I've heard on literature based on how the warpdrive actually works), allowing the ship to cross vast distances without actually travelling faster than light itself. Without the warpdrive, a StarTrek ship can't cheat relativity.

Do you have a canon source for this? We know its possible to COAST at FTL speeds without an active warp field.

Sure we do, we see it when they shoot past Saturn and on approach to the Borg Cube itself. No glowing there.

HELLO!!! There is such a thing as acceleration. The E-D wasn't moving FTL instantly. And when it approached the Cube it would have DECELERATED.

Apples and oranges. The Warp Drive isn't actually making the ship travel faster than light, it's "cheating" by warping space for the same effect, so there wouldn't be casuality weirdness. At least that's what the official literature on the matter says.

I would love to see canon references for these claims.

[Prozac the Robert]

The Warp Drive isn't actually making the ship travel faster than light, it's "cheating" by warping space for the same effect, so there wouldn't be casuality weirdness. At least that's what the official literature on the matter says.

Causality depends on the time taken to get from A to B being less than the time taken by light. Wormhole, warp, hyperdrive or stargate, they all allow you to violate causality.

[Gil Hamilton]

Causality depends on the time taken to get from A to B being less than the time taken by light. Wormhole, warp, hyperdrive or stargate, they all allow you to violate causality.

The thing is that Alyeska's argument banks on them not using a method to cheat relativity to travel faster than light, but rather doing it straight up with their impulse drive and some unknown mechanism.

[Gil Hamilton]

Your still under the assumption that the Impulse drives are purely fussion. Furthermore your making the assumption that they did something not stated. Why drop out of warp to get a time estimate for a speed your not going and then go back into warp at a slower speed then you were previously traveling? The implications are very clear. They are traveling at Impulse.

It doesn't matter if it was purely a fusion drive or if it used some other method of pushing hot gas in one direction and the ship in the opposite, the point remains.

We visually saw them passing Saturn at a speed that was less than interplanerary and certainly less than light. If Wesley was giving a speed estimate for that particular speed, then he was talking out his ass, because we clearly saw that they weren't travelling at supralight speeds or speeds where they'd reach earth in years, let alone minutes. That means they had to speed up anyway. This means that they could have very easily have gone to warp and had included that in his ETA.

Thus we have two explainations (yours and mine)
Mine: They went to warp as part of intercepting the Cube, thus explaining that short ETA. They moved at a low warp factor because as we've seen in other StarTrek episodes (particularly the DS9 episode were the changling impersonating Bashir tried to blow up Bajor's sun), going from point A to point B within the same solar system is bad juju. None of this is particularly new technology for them and fits all the facts.

Yours: They flew to the Borg Cube using their impulse drive and a hereto unmentioned mechanism that allowed them to travel at faster than light speeds but wasn't the warp core, which is normally what they use in concert with their impulse drive to travel at faster than light speeds. The effects are exactly the same as my theory, but it adds a new mechanism that we've never heard about before or since.

Which is better?

(ironically, we are getting into this fight because of suspension of belief... in a better world, we'd just agree that it was because the morons who wrote the episode threw out a random number that they didn't bother to check)

Do you have a canon source for this? We know its possible to COAST at FTL speeds without an active warp field.

When did they coast without a warp field?

HELLO!!! There is such a thing as acceleration. The E-D wasn't moving FTL instantly. And when it approached the Cube it would have DECELERATED.

But it was moving past Saturn. If that was the speed that Wesley was measuring from to calculate their ETA, as you contend with your theory, then they should have been moving faster than light then, which they very clearly were not.

I would love to see canon references for these claims.

There are no canon sources for how the warp drive worked. I culled that from a tech manual. Nothing in the show contradicts it and the lack of FTL effects supports it. Besides, it's really irrelevant to the argument anyway.

[Alan Bolte]

It doesn't matter if it was purely a fusion drive or if it used some other method of pushing hot gas in one direction and the ship in the opposite, the point remains.

How on earth did you read that as "some other method of pushing hot gas in one direction and the ship in the opposite," rather than 'some other method of moving the ship entirely, using technobabble.'?

[Gil Hamilton]

How on earth did you read that as "some other method of pushing hot gas in one direction and the ship in the opposite," rather than 'some other method of moving the ship entirely, using technobabble.'?

I read it as he was saying that the principle of the impulse drive wasn't entirely based on fusion propulsion. The effect, however, is the same whether it is a pure fusion drive or a hybrid (like the photon drive described by Niven in his short story "The Warriors" which was a fusion pumped photon drive); something shoots out the back and the impulse moves the ship in the other direction.

[The Nomad]

Ever considered the following :

"ETA is given in ship time, not Federation time" + "high relativistic speed = time dilatation" ?

[Howedar]

Technically possible but it would be a meaningless statement; they cared about how long in system time until they could engage the Cube, it doesn't matter how long it would take in an arbitrary time reference frame.

[teleguy]

The Techmanual says concerning Impulse drive:

...This necessitated the inclusion of a compact spacetime driver coil, similar to those standard in warp engine nacelles, that would perform a low-level continuum distortion ...

So the impulse drive is not just a fusion engine , but warps space as well, just not as much as warp drive does.

[Enola Straight]

Do you have a canon source for this? We know its possible to COAST at FTL speeds without an active warp field.

When did they coast without a warp field?

In the TNG ep where the warp 5 speed limit was implemented due to repeated warp travel in the Hekkaras Corridor wearing out the very fabric of spacetime, causing subspace rifts.

In order to rescue a ship inside one of these rifts without tearing a bigger hole in spacetime, the E-D saturated the warp nacelles with warp energy and merely coasted into the rift without using the engines.

[Gil Hamilton]

In the TNG ep where the warp 5 speed limit was implemented due to repeated warp travel in the Hekkaras Corridor wearing out the very fabric of spacetime, causing subspace rifts.

In order to rescue a ship inside one of these rifts without tearing a bigger hole in spacetime, the E-D saturated the warp nacelles with warp energy and merely coasted into the rift without using the engines.

In other words, they still had an active warp field, but just didn't have the engines turned on at the time.

[teleguy]

A Bajoran Solar Sailor travelled FTL without a warpfield in "Explorers".

[Jon]

A Bajoran Solar Sailor travelled FTL without a warpfield in "Explorers".

Yeah and they experienced no relativistic effects whatsoever, more bollocks.

Btw, your tech manual quote isnt canon and thus isn't acceptable. (As nice it is)

[Alyeska]

In the TNG ep where the warp 5 speed limit was implemented due to repeated warp travel in the Hekkaras Corridor wearing out the very fabric of spacetime, causing subspace rifts.

In order to rescue a ship inside one of these rifts without tearing a bigger hole in spacetime, the E-D saturated the warp nacelles with warp energy and merely coasted into the rift without using the engines.

In other words, they still had an active warp field, but just didn't have the engines turned on at the time.

Incorrect. Active warp fields caused damage to that area of space and they couldn't use them.

[Kamakazie Sith]

A Bajoran Solar Sailor travelled FTL without a warpfield in "Explorers".

Yeah and they experienced no relativistic effects whatsoever, more bollocks.

Btw, your tech manual quote isnt canon and thus isn't acceptable. (As nice it is)

I thought that was from the episode in which Sisko and his son build one of those ships.

[Alan Bolte]

Btw, your tech manual quote isnt canon and thus isn't acceptable. (As nice it is)

As has already been discussed, the tech manual is a potentially useful piece of speculation based at least partially on the cannon, and is admissible as such. No one complains if you say 'I like Kennedy's or Wong's speculation on this item, or it's a good illustration of what I'm talking about.' Furthermore, I assume the quote was presented as an attempt to to illustrate to Gil what Alyeska meant, which for some reason I failed at. Either I am or he is being increadibly dense here.
And finally, I must admit, I'm finding your posts in the past few months to be just a tad trollish. Subjectively, of course, with a bad memory; I don't mean to insult you. I dunno, could you tone it down?