First Contact or Nemesis. Which was less Dissapointing?

[Mange]

You don't like Kahn, yet you think FC had better villains? Wow, I... don't know what to think. My god, a tinplated zombie whore with nifty lipstick and wearing a bondage outfit beats Kahn, a guy who gets off putting brain-eating worms into people's ears.

Ok, you have your opinion and that's fair - just a question about Riker though, why do you like him? Explain that one to me.

While this isn't a thread for this, perhaps I should clarify my position on Khan. It's not that I don't 'like' Khan, rather I don't like his backstory. Ricardo Montalban made a good job portraying Khan and the F/X is well done (ILM rules). I don't know, perhaps I've seen it too many times to really enjoy it. I haven't seen the Special Edition though.

About Riker, I really don't know why I think he's a good character. In the first season, Riker was a wimp, but the character grew during the second season. Frakes was able to convey a true sense of authority, much more so than Patrick Stewart. On a sidenote, I mentioned the cast and charactes of Voyager, so I think it would be appropriate to mention Enterprise briefly. While Swedish television only have showed the first season and begun on the second, I think that it is pretty good. Heck, it's the only Star Trek show yet to feature not only one attractive woman, but TWO (Jolene Blalock and Linda Park). No, seriously, the cast is good and the characters are well developed. While some episodes have been somewhat boring, others have been great. It will be interesting to see if the series will be discontinued or not, and how the show will progress. This ties in with FC and the rest of the TNG movies as they have lost their focus on exploration. While FC shows the first warp flight, the movie is more or less an action movie. FC is also biased towards trekkers as some elements would be difficult to grasp for a casual movie-goer.

[Typhonis 1]

I thought it ending WAS Nemesis best part

Nah, even that sucked.

I didnt see anything wrong with the closing credits

[Crazedwraith]

I can't decide despite the plot holes and stupity of FC, I wasn't really expecting anything is a wasn't disappointed and I'd heard how crap Nem was so it didn't disappoint at all. In fact it lived entirely up to its repuation so I'll vote FC.

[JME2]

As fun as it was, I didn't like FC for two reasons.

1. The Borg Queen - while a fascinating foe, it contradicts the basic structure of the Hive-Mind and the Collective as we were given on TNG. Of course, this is to be expected given that Berman and Braga fucked up the Borg on VGR.

2. The Fleet Battle: Come on, could it please be more than 2 minutes? Please?

[Mange]

Any way you look at it, Nemesis was a disappointment. The teaser trailer contained some very cool dialogue: 'The time we have dreamed of is at hand.' 'The mighty Federation will fall before us.' And some clips that looked promising. When the movie came to the theaters, all that cool dialouge had been cut and the movie was boring as hell. Stiff and plastic acting, horrible writing, see-thru plot holes, the dreadful ARGO vehicle (it REALLY makes me cringe everytime I see it) and sub-par special effects made Nemesis a painful experience. Berman promised a villain that would rival Khan, all we got was a bleak villain who was more interested in mind raping Troi than following his agenda in one of the most contrieved scenes ever. I can't understand how AOTC was 'awarded' any Razzies (worst supporting actor: Hayden Christensen and worst screenplay: George Lucas and Jonathan Hales). That 'honor' is something that Nemesis should have been 'awarded' with.

[Jon]

As fun as it was, I didn't like FC for two reasons.

1. The Borg Queen - while a fascinating foe, it contradicts the basic structure of the Hive-Mind and the Collective as we were given on TNG. Of course, this is to be expected given that Berman and Braga fucked up the Borg on VGR.

I'd always thought the Borg Queen (is she actually referred to as that, on screen, FC?) wasn't as much a leader, but just a physical 'interactive' representation of the collective as a whole, used to kiss androids.

2. The Fleet Battle: Come on, could it please be more than 2 minutes? Please?

As discussed in another thread, I hardly think what we saw compromised the entire battle, and I would say the same for any other on screen trek battle that weren't within specifically quoted timeframes. But in the case of cinematography- I wish it had lasted longer, or at least have been portrayed as to have.

[Uraniun235]

I wish the battle had shown a more competent Starfleet, rather than just having ships randomly buzz around the Cube taking potshots at it.

[JME2]

I wish the battle had shown a more competent Starfleet, rather than just having ships randomly buzz around the Cube taking potshots at it.

Exactly. I wanted an image that impressed me like the Galaxy Wings surging forward in DS9's Sacrifice of Angels.

[Howedar]

FC was a decent B movie. Nemesis was not.

[Mange]

To clarify my earlier post. IMO there are many things that clearly separates FC from Nemesis.

The Villain:
FC had the Borg and Nemesis had Shinzon. The Borg epitomizes one great fear, the risk of losing your individualism. IMHO it works on the audience as well as the characters. Shinzon is a rather bleak villain that I personally can't relate to. I have to go purely on the character which is the object of this villains actions, namely Picard. Speaking of actions, I'm having difficulties understanding the choices that Shinzon makes. Although his time is very limited, he finds the time to do totally unnecessary things (for example, mind-raping Troi) than to proceed with his agenda.

The action:
Well, the fleet combat was a bit short, but it was very well executed. This was the last time ILM was hired to do the visual effects. The action on board the Enterprise was also good, with the exception of the EVA action. Nemesis had also contained some good action (for example the ramming scene), but not as good as in FC.

The humour:
FC is a funny movie! Even Deanna Troi is funny, something that I didn't expect to happen. I mean the scene in which she is drunk, although Sirtis introduces the scene poorly, the resolution is hilarious. There are many other funny things in the movie that Nemesis is totally devoid of.

[Sokartawi]

Every minute of Nemesis made me cringe. What a horrible load of bullshit, especially the Reman plot, utter utter crap, aaghhh... And how the *bleep* can someone smuggle that radiation weapon into the Romulan Senate? When the Enterprise could detect a small amount of this radiation leaking from the Scimitar's powercore? Utter bull.

FC was enjoyable at times.

[Isolder74]

Not to mention it stomped all over the original back story for the Romulons. The Whole twin homeworld thing was cool.

Why make up a whole new vilian when they had on already that would fit the role better than anyone. That would be SELA! The one person on all of Romulas who has a reason to hate Picard and want revenge on him! The one person in Trek who would hae a reason to want to destroy earth!

[JME2]

Every minute of Nemesis made me cringe. What a horrible load of bullshit, especially the Reman plot, utter utter crap, aaghhh... And how the *bleep* can someone smuggle that radiation weapon into the Romulan Senate? When the Enterprise could detect a small amount of this radiation leaking from the Scimitar's powercore? Utter bull.

FC was enjoyable at times.

I take then you won't be reading the short story Twilight that's included in the upcoming Tales of the Dominion War anthology; it focuses on Shinzon's backstory and the 12 engagements he fought in the war.

[Stofsk]

Why make up a whole new vilian when they had on already that would fit the role better than anyone. That would be SELA! The one person on all of Romulas who has a reason to hate Picard and want revenge on him! The one person in Trek who would hae a reason to want to destroy earth!

Why the hell do people always bring up Sela? Did it not occur to you that as villains go, she was pretty incompetent?

"The Mind's Eye" First 'appearance' - her plot to use Geordi as a mind controlled assassin (*smirks *) fails. Somehow she keeps her job; maybe because the Romulans weren't implicated and therefore their security wasn't compromised. Either way she's given a second chance.

"Redemption" Second appearance - her plot to destabilise the Klingon empire by pitting noble houses against one another in futile combat meets with some success... until the part where her supply fleet get's stopped by a blockade in (*smirks *) interstellar space. Why she couldn't go around is one of those mysteries that will never be solved. Strike two.

"Unification" Third and Final appearance - now her plot is to destablise the Federation by invading Vulcan with (*smirks *) a couple thousand troops. Yep, she was going to attempt a planetary invasion with a couple thousand GIs and maybe a Warbird providing aerial/orbital support. The fact she was outsmarted and defeated by a 3 individuals who should have been put into a prison cell speaks wonders for her competence. Strike three - she's OUT.

In all seriousness I can't see Sela being anywhere near a major assignment after this one. She was probably given the Romulan Tal Shiar equivalent of a CIA posting in Alaska monitoring communications; that's assuming she wasn't executed for gross incompetence which lead to lost Romulan lives (a precedent set by "Face of the Enemy" where Commander Toreth recounts how an intelligence officer was executed for providing useless data to a battlegroup, which as a result had been ambushed).

If you were going to pick an established Romulan adversary you should have picked Tomalok! How could anyone pass up Andreas Katsulas? He would certainly be more entertaining that either Sela or Shitzon.

[Alyeska]

Sela would have been a good villian because she is still smarter then Schinzon and we wouldn't need a made up story to create her hatred for Picard or the Federation. Sela is a hell of a lot better then Schinzon for a plot and the movie would have flowed with the idea of TWOK (pick a villian from the past who wants revenge) much better. With Sela we could even have included Spock in the movie. Sela wanted Picard, Data, and Spock dead above everyone else. Data's death would have had more meaning if Sela was involved and it would have given the movie more emotional feel to it.

[JME2]

Sela would have been a good villian because she is still smarter then Schinzon and we wouldn't need a made up story to create her hatred for Picard or the Federation. Sela is a hell of a lot better then Schinzon for a plot and the movie would have flowed with the idea of TWOK (pick a villian from the past who wants revenge) much better. With Sela we could even have included Spock in the movie. Sela wanted Picard, Data, and Spock dead above everyone else. Data's death would have had more meaning if Sela was involved and it would have given the movie more emotional feel to it.

I concur, even though John Logan said that they couldn't find a good way or reason to put Spock and Sela in. It would really have been a great way to finish off the Romulan arc that began in TNG than the one that Nemesis provided. As it is, Spock and Sela will have a major role to play in the Romulan-arc of my Trek/Wars crossover.

[Alyeska]

Couldn't find a good reason to put Sela or Spock in?!?!? What kinda of fucking incompetent is Logan?

[Gil Hamilton]

Is he smoking bad crack? Sela had the means, the motive, and the opportunity! Picard, Data, and Spock are personally responsible for dicking her over three times. Plus, they've got a storyline that was hanging in the air waiting to be wrapped up in a movie. That movie was begging for Sela and Spock.

[JME2]

Is he smoking bad crack? Sela had the means, the motive, and the opportunity! Picard, Data, and Spock are personally responsible for dicking her over three times. Plus, they've got a storyline that was hanging in the air waiting to be wrapped up in a movie. That movie was begging for Sela and Spock.

Well the only benefit is that this route is unoffically being done in the Shatner-verse of Trek Novels with 'Captain's Blood'.[/i]

[Stofsk]

So... you all think that Sela somehow survived her incompetent career as an Intelligence agent, even though she fucked up royally on no less than 3 occasions? I can see Sela plotting revenge from inside some penal colony, but I doubt she'll be able to if she was executed.

[Alyeska]

I seriously doubt she would have been executed. Demoted, sure. Her plans were sound for the most part and it was actions of others that fucked them up. I could see her plotting with less power to create an atmosphere where she can take control and lure the Enterprise into a trap.

[Stofsk]

You're forgetting the precedent set by "Face of the Enemy" where Commander Toreth delighted her officers and Troi with the tale of how an intelligence officer was executed for incompetence.

Sela failed on no less than 3 occasions! They really weren't sound at all; the first had to do with brainwashing Geordi, the second failed because she didn't consider going around the blockade, and the third failed mainly due to underestimating Spock and Data. However, even if Spock had co-operated, there was only a couple thousand troops on their way to Vulcan, with no more than one known Warbird providing escort.

I honestly didn't think she was that great a villain anyway. As much as I feel rediculous for saying it, Daimon Bok was more scary. Fuck, what about Lore? He was like the Doctor Doom of TNG. Or Tomalok? If you want a Romulan villain who's played by a cool actor, go him.

[Gil Hamilton]

Sela might also be powerful enough to escape execution and merely get demoted to a crummy job. However, such a demotion would be decent in terms of the movie. It's a good scene setter.

[Isolder74]

all how would have a reason to want to blow earth up. Which is our point. aTHe only world Shizon would want to nuke would be his oppresors the Romulons!

[MKSheppard]

PS. Has anyone ever seen a postapocalyptic Earth which was as ordinary-looking as the post-apocalyptic Earth in STFC? Fuck, the campground near my old house looked just like that.

Well, to be truthful, nuclear war is not the end all that some anti-nuke
activists would have you believe....the main cities would be smashed
and glowing deserts of Trinitite, but the wilderness would be good to go,
if you weren't in the fallout plume.

They had a pretty good depiction of a post apocalyptic community there,
almost falloutesque, except the people there actually fix the buildings