The Length of the Battle in FC

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Robert Walper
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Post by Robert Walper »

Stark wrote:If you assume the Borg made a beeline for Earth without detours, and that SF knew they'd do this, then isn't it likely that upon detecting the Borg ship inbound, SF 'bunched' its spread-out forces near the corridor the cube would pass through into a series of groups intended to engage the cube as it passed?
This wouldn't seem consistent with Starfleet's plan to engage the Borg cube at the Typhoon sector. Since Starfleet had enough warning time that a remote outpost like DS9 could provide their primary warship for the battle, it makes far more sense Starfleet would amass one large fleet and try to hit the cube hard in a single engagement.
From the BoBW precedent, the cube can be expected to stop and destroy each group, but if there wasn't much warning, the fleet at Typhon could simply be the ships that were in the area, and not a particularly strong force.
I daresay Starfleet tactical planners would realize smaller groups of starships would be obliterated due to their experience from Wolf 359. Their goal is to destroy the cube, not delay it with stopping and destroying smaller groups of starships.
Thus, regardless of how long it took the Borg to make it to Earth, it seems unlikely that it was being enaged 24/7, instead of a series of isolated, and likely brief encounters with assembled local forces, Wolf 359 style.
While it's possible the cube wasn't engaged 24/7, I find it hard to believe Starfleet would breakup their fleets into such isolated groups, particularily since they know small groups would be handled that much easier.

Every indication suggests Starfleet amassed a single fleet in the Typhoon Sector and attempted to stop the cube there. This would be consistent with knowing the Defiant was at both known battle locations, comments like Troi's "We've just recieved word from the fleet. They've engaged the Borg.", and etc.
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Alyeska
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Post by Alyeska »

Just to clear a few things up here.

Insurrection takes place durring the Dominion War. So while there are fleet losses, they still aren't as bad as they have been. Furthermore, Worf didn't say anything about loosing his "Tough Little Ship" to the rest of the Enterprise crew.

We have a couple facts to take into account here. It was stated the Federation had been attacked by the Borg within the last 24 months. Assuming that is exactly 24 months, Insurrection takes place no more then 18 months into the Dominion War. Given that the Defiant isn't talked about being dead and 24 months was a rough figure (it could just be 20 months) its possible Insurrection takes place only 12 months into the War. Another thing to think about. 12 months into the war and the Federation took Chin'Toka and had the Romulans on their side. Its very possible the Dominion quietly looked into a peaceful settling of the war at this point.

Now when did the Federation take the heaviest losses? Most of these occured when the Breen attacked. Late in the war.

Picard is comparing the losses from the Dominion durring an earlier stage of the war to the losses by the Borg.

This means the Borg can cause relatively heavier losses by comparison then what Robert was originaly suggesting.
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Post by Stark »

Robert, I assumed the Borg are travelling at high speed, ST fleets won't have time to rally, or potentially even be vectored to intercept, unless they happened to be in the way already. And Defiant being at Earth is only circumstantial evidence for a longer battle.
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Post by Alyeska »

Stark wrote:Robert, I assumed the Borg are travelling at high speed, ST fleets won't have time to rally, or potentially even be vectored to intercept, unless they happened to be in the way already. And Defiant being at Earth is only circumstantial evidence for a longer battle.
Given the speed problems the Defiant is known to have, its fairly strong evidence.

IMO, what happened was Starfleet created a series of traps for the Borg ship. Some way or another they forced it out of warp and hit it with everything they had rallied in that system. The Borg eventualy blow through the line of ships and destroy or move past whats holding it and continues at warp. Surviving ships then race to catch the Borg ship at the next stopping point.

I don't have any evidence to support this, but it would explain the Defiant catching a faster ship and you could have the Cube blowing through a series of 30-50 ship formations at a time.
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Post by Robert Walper »

Stark wrote:Robert, I assumed the Borg are travelling at high speed, ST fleets won't have time to rally, or potentially even be vectored to intercept, unless they happened to be in the way already. And Defiant being at Earth is only circumstantial evidence for a longer battle.
The Defiant was at both the initial engagement and Earth. I'm extremely hard pressed to believe that is "circumstantial". Frankly, that convinces me the Defiant was called to the Typhoon Sector specifically for the purpose of intercepting the Borg cube, and fought a running battle with cube from that point on.

If I'm correct in interpretating Alyeska's statement(indicating the Defiant isn't exactly the fastest ship), then that only strengthens the case that Starfleet could've mustered quite an impressive force to assault the cube.
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Post by Stark »

Alyeska wrote:Given the speed problems the Defiant is known to have, its fairly strong evidence.
I don't see the idea of Defiant being away from DS9 as too unlikely. They made a TVs show about it.
Alyeska wrote:IMO, what happened was Starfleet created a series of traps for the Borg ship. Some way or another they forced it out of warp and hit it with everything they had rallied in that system. The Borg eventualy blow through the line of ships and destroy or move past whats holding it and continues at warp. Surviving ships then race to catch the Borg ship at the next stopping point.
Chief, they won't *have* to force it out of warp. Did you read my post at all? The cube will likely drop out and attack volunarily, just like in BoBW. They will also stay until all ships are down, then continue. We've seen them behave like this before.
Alyeska wrote:I don't have any evidence to support this, but it would explain the Defiant catching a faster ship and you could have the Cube blowing through a series of 30-50 ship formations at a time.
Or the Defiant was simply rallied to the Earth (because it was closer, or because it was too slow to get anywhere else in time), and a bunching defense I have already described as the only possible way to engage the cube if it speeds to Earth. I'll stop posting, since you obviously stopped reading.
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Post by Alyeska »

Stark wrote:I don't see the idea of Defiant being away from DS9 as too unlikely. They made a TVs show about it.
You completely missed what I am talking about. The Defiant is a SLOW ship for Starfleet. The GCS is much faster and a Cube can outrun it. If the Defiant was at the first and last engagement, the Cube was slowed down. Most logical way to slow it down is to shoot at it. The Cube must have had a LOT of targets to allow the Defiant to catch it.
Or the Defiant was simply rallied to the Earth (because it was closer, or because it was too slow to get anywhere else in time), and a bunching defense I have already described as the only possible way to engage the cube if it speeds to Earth. I'll stop posting, since you obviously stopped reading.
What the fuck is your problem? The Defiant was at the FIRST engagement. This blows your entire argument out of the water.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Alyeska wrote:Given the speed problems the Defiant is known to have, its fairly strong evidence.

IMO, what happened was Starfleet created a series of traps for the Borg ship. Some way or another they forced it out of warp and hit it with everything they had rallied in that system. The Borg eventualy blow through the line of ships and destroy or move past whats holding it and continues at warp. Surviving ships then race to catch the Borg ship at the next stopping point.

I don't have any evidence to support this, but it would explain the Defiant catching a faster ship and you could have the Cube blowing through a series of 30-50 ship formations at a time.
Alternatively, the Fed fleet could not intercept the Cube until it was almost at its destination and then it fought a single continuous battle against the Cube for several hours. There is no need whatsoever to invent your imaginary multiple defense lines and separate battles.
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Alyeska
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Post by Alyeska »

Darth Wong wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Given the speed problems the Defiant is known to have, its fairly strong evidence.

IMO, what happened was Starfleet created a series of traps for the Borg ship. Some way or another they forced it out of warp and hit it with everything they had rallied in that system. The Borg eventualy blow through the line of ships and destroy or move past whats holding it and continues at warp. Surviving ships then race to catch the Borg ship at the next stopping point.

I don't have any evidence to support this, but it would explain the Defiant catching a faster ship and you could have the Cube blowing through a series of 30-50 ship formations at a time.
Alternatively, the Fed fleet could not intercept the Cube until it was almost at its destination and then it fought a single continuous battle against the Cube for several hours. There is no need whatsoever to invent your imaginary multiple defense lines and separate battles.
First time in Sol it moved through the system in under an hour. Now it suddenly decides to slowly stroll through the system letting more ships show up?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Alyeska wrote:First time in Sol it moved through the system in under an hour. Now it suddenly decides to slowly stroll through the system letting more ships show up?
It got held up by a picket line just outside the system, hence it dropped out of warp early and fought its way to Earth. As I said, this can be explained without the need for your imaginary multiple defense lines and separate battles spanning over numerous star systems.
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Post by The Silence and I »

Here is the relevant quote, with areas relevent to the debate highlighted.
{6504}{6582}I've just received a disturbing|report from Deep Space Five.
{6583}{6669}Our colony on Ivor Prime|was destroyed this morning.
{6670}{6713}Long-range sensors|have picked up-
{6714}{6792}I know. The Borg.
{6857}{6960}Captain's log,|stardate 50893.5.
{6961}{7071}The moment I've dreaded for|nearly six years has arrived.
{7072}{7139}The Borg,|our most lethal enemy...
{7140}{7213}have begun an invasion|of the Federation...
{7214}{7284}and this time,|there may be no stopping them.
{7316}{7343}How many ships?
{7344}{7396}One,|on a direct course for Earth.
{7397}{7460}They'll cross the Federation|border in less than an hour.
{7461}{7532}Admiral Hayes is mobilizing|a fleet in the Typhon sector.
{7533}{7592}At maximum warp, it will take|3 hours, 25 minutes-
{7593}{7631}We're not going.


{10841}{10897}We've received word|from the fleet.
{10898}{10952}They've engaged the Borg.
{11024}{11111}Put Starfleet frequency|one-four-eight-six on audio.
{11112}{11141}Aye, sir.
{11179}{11272}Flagship to Endeavor.|Stand by to engage at grid A-15.
{11356}{11383}Acknowledged.
{11384}{11423}We have it in visual range-
{11424}{11511}a Borg cube on course|zero mark two-one-five.
{11511}{11556}Speed-warp nine point-
{11556}{11590}We are the Borg.
{11591}{11654}Lower your shields|and surrender.
{11655}{11746}We will add your biological and|technological distinctiveness...
{11747}{11776}to our own.
{11777}{11852}Your culture will adapt|to service us.
{11853}{11901}Resistance is futile.
{11999}{12073}They've broken|through the defense perimeter.
{12074}{12111}The cube is changing course.
{12112}{12200}Zero-two-one mark four.
{12201}{12259}Starfleet Command,|we need reinforcements.
{12343}{12408}Ninety-six dead,|22 wounded on the Lexington!
{12409}{12452}This is Commander Luxi|on the Madison...
{12485}{12544}Lieutenant Hawk,|set a course for Earth.
{12544}{12577}Aye, sir.
{12578}{12625}Maximum warp.
{12684}{12749}I'm about to commit|a direct violation of orders.
{12750}{12808}Any of you who wish to object|should do so now.
{12809}{12872}It will be noted in my log.
{12961}{13070}I believe I speak|for everyone when I say...
{13132}{13176}to hell with our orders.
{13260}{13350}Red alert.|All hands to battle stations.
"Do not worry, I have prepared something for just such an emergency."

"You're prepared for a giant monster made entirely of nulls stomping around Mainframe?!"

"That is correct!"

"How do you plan for that?"

"Uh... lucky guess?"
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