Borg

[Sarevok]

Ersatz Cybermen. Never took them seriously myself, except perhaps for BOBW.

The Borg were also a great villain in First Contact.

[Stofsk]

Ersatz Cybermen. Never took them seriously myself, except perhaps for BOBW.

The Borg were also a great villain in First Contact.

No they weren't. They were pretty pathetic, really. I mean, after BOBW the Borg retaliate ... by sending in one cube. And then they rely on time travel to assault the Federation, which goes against everything they stood for (remember in the episodes the Borg were first introduced, when they said they assimilate other civilisation's technology? Why go back in time to assimilate the Federation, before it is even formed, and especially before they develop the technology the Borg sought). Then, when they beam over to the Enterprise, they still can't take over it.

And don't get me started on the the Borg Queen... ugh.

[Robert Walper]

The Borg were also a great villain in First Contact.

No they weren't. They were pretty pathetic, really.

Plowing through potentially hundreds of Federation ships and reaching spitting distance of Earth, with a single vessel, is pathetic?

I mean, after BOBW the Borg retaliate ... by sending in one cube.

This would be analogous to saying deploying a single DeathStar was insufficient to destroy the planet Yavin. You're ignoring the circumstances which lead to it's destruction. A tactical analysis not dependent upon a fluke exploit by the enemy would overwhelmingly point out a victory for the Death Star, or in this case, the Borg cube.

And then they rely on time travel to assault the Federation, which goes against everything they stood for (remember in the episodes the Borg were first introduced, when they said they assimilate other civilisation's technology? Why go back in time to assimilate the Federation, before it is even formed, and especially before they develop the technology the Borg sought).

If one suggested the Borg intented to assimilate the Enterprise E in the past along with the entire human population, one could point out they would have gained the Federation's best technological acheivements without having to beat the entire Federation for it. A rather good deal I'd think.

Then, when they beam over to the Enterprise, they still can't take over it.

The Borg certainly send the Starfleet forces packing, so much so that they felt their only option was to self destruct the ship and flee.

The only thing that prevented total control was Data. My conclusion is that Data is capable of deleting sensitive knowledge from his information storage devices. He did this in STTNG "In Theory", and in ST: "Insurrection", it was learned Data has information stored on chips rather than neural imprinting as some have suggested. This would justify Data's statement information stored in his brain cannot be forcible removed, by the virtue of him being able to delete it faster than an enemy could extract it.

And don't get me started on the the Borg Queen... ugh.

She's just a compact humanoid version of the Borg Vinculum, with personality. Every Borg vessel has one, and should require one. Hard to believe thousands of forcibly assimilated humanoids would willingly "think as one mind". Something has to be enforcing the Borg mentality on drones.

[General Zod]

The Borg were also a great villain in First Contact.

No they weren't. They were pretty pathetic, really.

Plowing through potentially hundreds of Federation ships and reaching spitting distance of Earth, with a single vessel, is pathetic?

it's pathetic that they plowed through every other federation ship only to be beaten by picard's crew in the end, and didn't have anything resembling reinforcements.

I mean, after BOBW the Borg retaliate ... by sending in one cube.

This would be analogous to saying deploying a single DeathStar was insufficient to destroy the planet Yavin. You're ignoring the circumstances which lead to it's destruction. A tactical analysis not dependent upon a fluke exploit by the enemy would overwhelmingly point out a victory for the Death Star, or in this case, the Borg cube.

a smart enemy would send overwhelming force to crush an enemy without taking chances. why only send one cube when it's been shown they literally have thousands at their disposal?

And then they rely on time travel to assault the Federation, which goes against everything they stood for (remember in the episodes the Borg were first introduced, when they said they assimilate other civilisation's technology? Why go back in time to assimilate the Federation, before it is even formed, and especially before they develop the technology the Borg sought).

If one suggested the Borg intented to assimilate the Enterprise E in the past along with the entire human population, one could point out they would have gained the Federation's best technological acheivements without having to beat the entire Federation for it. A rather good deal I'd think.

why would they come up with the strategy of going back in time when they never seem to think of any other single strategy that would be far more efficient? with B&B borg had a tendency to "rush straight forward and attack mindlessly. if that fails send in another cube, but never more than one at a time".

And don't get me started on the the Borg Queen... ugh.

She's just a compact humanoid version of the Borg Vinculum, with personality. Every Borg vessel has one, and should require one. Hard to believe thousands of forcibly assimilated humanoids would willingly "think as one mind". Something has to be enforcing the Borg mentality on drones.

proof that every borg vessel has one? so far we've only ever seen one queen at a time.

[Robert Walper]

Plowing through potentially hundreds of Federation ships and reaching spitting distance of Earth, with a single vessel, is pathetic?

it's pathetic that they plowed through every other federation ship only to be beaten by picard's crew in the end, and didn't have anything resembling reinforcements.

Another set of special circumstances. After this failure, the Borg changed their entire attack stradegy, which given what was seen, would have obliterated Federation.

a smart enemy would send overwhelming force to crush an enemy without taking chances.

A single cube is a overwhelming force. That's why even Starfleet's best battle tested defences still couldn't stop it and they were only saved by Picard's rabbit out of the hat trick.

why only send one cube when it's been shown they literally have thousands at their disposal?

Efficiency. The Borg have every reason to believe a single cube would crush the Federation. The first attack confirmed this, and was lost due only to special circumstances.

If one suggested the Borg intented to assimilate the Enterprise E in the past along with the entire human population, one could point out they would have gained the Federation's best technological acheivements without having to beat the entire Federation for it. A rather good deal I'd think.

why would they come up with the strategy of going back in time when they never seem to think of any other single strategy that would be far more efficient?

We have every reason to believe the time travel assault was a "on the fly" plan, not pre planned. The Borg in all likelyhood fully expected the cube to assimilate the federation. Given how even a war tested, war sized Federation still couldn't stop it, they were right. Once again saved only by Picard's "rabbit out of the hat" trick.

with B&B borg had a tendency to "rush straight forward and attack mindlessly. if that fails send in another cube, but never more than one at a time".

I give the Borg enough credit to recognize that one of their cube's is more than a match for Starfleet's armadas.

She's just a compact humanoid version of the Borg Vinculum, with personality. Every Borg vessel has one, and should require one. Hard to believe thousands of forcibly assimilated humanoids would willingly "think as one mind". Something has to be enforcing the Borg mentality on drones.

proof that every borg vessel has one? so far we've only ever seen one queen at a time.

Voyager picked up one from a Borg debris field. Seven of Nine stated that every Borg vessel has one. She said, quote "It's a device that brings order to chaos. It sifts through all thoughts and purges irrelevent ones. All Borg vessels have one." Words to that effect in any case. The Borg Queen is a more compact version of the Borg vinculum, with personality. It's not surprising in the least that the Borg have multiple and redundant methods of maintaining a Collective hive mind.

[SirNitram]

Plowing through potentially hundreds of Federation ships and reaching spitting distance of Earth, with a single vessel, is pathetic?

it's pathetic that they plowed through every other federation ship only to be beaten by picard's crew in the end, and didn't have anything resembling reinforcements.

Another set of special circumstances. After this failure, the Borg changed their entire attack stradegy, which given what was seen, would have obliterated Federation.

Oh boy. If it doesn't work in Trek's favor, cry 'special circumstances' without proof. Then make a wild assertion without proof. Some evidence for your bullshit, Robby?

a smart enemy would send overwhelming force to crush an enemy without taking chances.

A single cube is a overwhelming force. That's why even Starfleet's best battle tested defences still couldn't stop it and they were only saved by Picard's rabbit out of the hat trick.

A flat out lie; the Cube was suffering internal power grid failures, for God's sake. It was dying.

why only send one cube when it's been shown they literally have thousands at their disposal?

Efficiency. The Borg have every reason to believe a single cube would crush the Federation. The first attack confirmed this, and was lost due only to special circumstances.

The Borg apparently hate and loathe the idea of redundancy. After seeing one can be defeated by human ingenuity, they do not send a pair so as to minimize the likelihood of history repeating, they just continue with the threat recignition of the enemies in Day of the Dead.

If one suggested the Borg intented to assimilate the Enterprise E in the past along with the entire human population, one could point out they would have gained the Federation's best technological acheivements without having to beat the entire Federation for it. A rather good deal I'd think.

why would they come up with the strategy of going back in time when they never seem to think of any other single strategy that would be far more efficient?

We have every reason to believe the time travel assault was a "on the fly" plan, not pre planned. The Borg in all likelyhood fully expected the cube to assimilate the federation. Given how even a war tested, war sized Federation still couldn't stop it, they were right. Once again saved only by Picard's "rabbit out of the hat" trick.

No, they were defeated already. Internal power grid failures, or did you not even watch First Contact? Indeed, we have no evidence it was an 'on the fly' plan. You're making this stuff up.

with B&B borg had a tendency to "rush straight forward and attack mindlessly. if that fails send in another cube, but never more than one at a time".

I give the Borg enough credit to recognize that one of their cube's is more than a match for Starfleet's armadas.

Then you apparently ignored First Contact. Not surprising, given your debating tactics.

She's just a compact humanoid version of the Borg Vinculum, with personality. Every Borg vessel has one, and should require one. Hard to believe thousands of forcibly assimilated humanoids would willingly "think as one mind". Something has to be enforcing the Borg mentality on drones.

proof that every borg vessel has one? so far we've only ever seen one queen at a time.

http://members.fortunecity.de/neutralzo ... nculum.jpg

Voyager picked up one from a Borg debris field. Seven of Nine stated that every Borg vessel has one. She said, quote "It's a device that brings order to chaos. It sifts through all thoughts and purges irrelevent ones. All Borg vessels have one." Words to that effect in any case. The Borg Queen is a more compact version of the Borg vinculum, with personality. It's not surprising in the least that the Borg have multiple and redundant methods of maintaining a Collective hive mind.

Which fail if one Drone has a spark of personality.(Hugh)

[Ted C]

A single cube is a overwhelming force. That's why even Starfleet's best battle tested defences still couldn't stop it and they were only saved by Picard's rabbit out of the hat trick.

You're jumping to a conclusion, Robert. Sensor readings of the cube showed that it had already sustained heavy damage by the time the Enterprise-E arrived at the battle, and its power system was "fluctuating" as I recall. It was certainly still dangerous, but I daresay that the Federation fleet might have defeated it even without Picard's "rabbit out of the hat trick".

The Borg have every reason to believe a single cube would crush the Federation. The first attack confirmed this, and was lost due only to special circumstances.

The fact that they lost a cube at all in their first assimilation effort should have been a warning to them that the Federation was resourceful enough to thwart a single cube.

We have every reason to believe the time travel assault was a "on the fly" plan, not pre planned. The Borg in all likelyhood fully expected the cube to assimilate the federation. Given how even a war tested, war sized Federation still couldn't stop it, they were right. Once again saved only by Picard's "rabbit out of the hat" trick.

So you're suggesting that every Borg cube carries an "emergency time pod" for exterminating civilizations that are capable of defeating an attacking cube? That would have to be the case if the time-travel assault was something they came up with "on the fly". How could they know that the Enterprise would follow them into the past? As others have noted, going into the past to defeat the Federation would prevent the development of much of the technology they hoped to assimilate.

I give the Borg enough credit to recognize that one of their cube's is more than a match for Starfleet's armadas.

One of their cube's can eliminate about 40 Federation starships without great risk, but we know that the Starfleet can pull together hundreds of ships with enough warning and that their newer ships are better equipped (although the Borg wouldn't have known about ships like the Defiant when they sent their second cube).

[Robert Walper]

A single cube is a overwhelming force. That's why even Starfleet's best battle tested defences still couldn't stop it and they were only saved by Picard's rabbit out of the hat trick.

You're jumping to a conclusion, Robert. Sensor readings of the cube showed that it had already sustained heavy damage by the time the Enterprise-E arrived at the battle,

It should be noted Data mentioned the cube had only sustained major damage to it's outer hull. Given that the Federation fleet by all accounts was close to defeat, and the Borg's witnessed ability to regenerate masive hull damage, I hesitate to suggest the cube was really in that dire of circumstances.

and its power system was "fluctuating" as I recall.

To quote Data: "The cube has sustained heavy damage to it's outer hull. I'm detecting fluxuations in their power grid."

This could mean any number of things. Starfleet vessels were in all likelyhood targetting vital systems, like weapon emitters, tractor emittors, power generators, etc. This should, if I'm not mistaken, create power fluxuations throughout the ship as emittors drawing power are suddenly destroyed and other systems are repaired, etc.

It was certainly still dangerous, but I daresay that the Federation fleet might have defeated it even without Picard's "rabbit out of the hat trick".

I suppose that's possible, but my impression from the movie was that the Federation fleet was close to defeat. The Defiant, a dedicated warship, had been virtually knocked out of the fight and the entire full strength armada hadn't been able to stop the cube during the beginning of the engagement. After hours of fighting and trying to inflict damage, I'm dubious to the decimated fleet's ability to stop the cube without Picard providing inside intel on when and where to hit the cube.

The Borg have every reason to believe a single cube would crush the Federation. The first attack confirmed this, and was lost due only to special circumstances.

The fact that they lost a cube at all in their first assimilation effort should have been a warning to them that the Federation was resourceful enough to thwart a single cube.

The Enterprise crew had completely given up on finding a way to stop the cube and were ready to ram the cube in a last ditch effort to try and stop it. The only event that saved them was Locutus's ability to point out a course of action. In a tactical analysis, I'm extremely hesistant to suggest that specific set of circumstances as a reliable method of stopping a Borg invasion.

For example, the first DeathStar was defeated by a single fighter with a proton torpedo hit at the right spot. I don't think anyone would seriously suggest that set of circumstances as a reasonable tactical analysis when say, comparing the DeathStar to a Federation runabout with a torpedo launcher.

We have every reason to believe the time travel assault was a "on the fly" plan, not pre planned. The Borg in all likelyhood fully expected the cube to assimilate the federation. Given how even a war tested, war sized Federation still couldn't stop it, they were right. Once again saved only by Picard's "rabbit out of the hat" trick.

So you're suggesting that every Borg cube carries an "emergency time pod" for exterminating civilizations that are capable of defeating an attacking cube?

Hmm...good point. I would lean towards no. However, the sphere being available does not automatically mean it was there for the purpose of time travel. It could have been there for the purpose of assisting assimilation of Earth or other targets once the cube had dealt with the major fleet threats.

That would have to be the case if the time-travel assault was something they came up with "on the fly".

As I pointed out above, not necessarily. That is based upon the assumption the available sphere was there specifically for the purpose of time travel, as opposed to other purposes, like assisting in the assimilation of Earth's population, etc.

How could they know that the Enterprise would follow them into the past?

The Borg drones did get off a signal in ENT "Regeneration". They were from the Borg sphere in First Contact, and they would've known the Enterprise followed them back in time. However, this is going to depend upon your interpretation of Enterprise as "canon".

However, even that is not necessary. I'd point out the Borg should be familar with their own technology. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest the Borg would be aware the Enterprise would be caught in a temporal wake, and witness the changes in the timeline, or alternate history if you will. That being the case, it would stand to reason they'd have every reason to expect the Enterprise to follow them back.

As others have noted, going into the past to defeat the Federation would prevent the development of much of the technology they hoped to assimilate.

I'm suggesting their plan could have been dependant upon the Enterprise pursuing them to meet both their objectives(biological and technological acquisition). The Enterprise did plot a pursuit course after the sphere, and a significant time frame did pass after that before the sphere initiatied it's temporal drive(for lack of a better term). One might suggest the sphere could have waited for the Enterprise to be in range of the temporal wake.

I give the Borg enough credit to recognize that one of their cube's is more than a match for Starfleet's armadas.

One of their cube's can eliminate about 40 Federation starships without great risk, but we know that the Starfleet can pull together hundreds of ships with enough warning and that their newer ships are better equipped (although the Borg wouldn't have known about ships like the Defiant when they sent their second cube).

I suppose this is going to depend upon how much intel we can reasonable suggest the Borg had about the Federation prior to their second attack. Were they aware of the Dominion war and Starfleet's massive buildup, and as you pointed out the Defiant projects and other related efforts?

To sum it up, from their first assault, the Borg had every reason to expect a single cube to assimilate the Federation relatively easily. Their second assault may have met up with greater resistance than anticipated and failed accordingly. However, after that failure, they altered their stradegy signficantly by deploying a transwarp hub conduit less than a light year from Earth. This would have allowed the Collective to deploy multiple vessels right at Earth's doorstep with virtually no warning time. Noteable, this would be in roughly the same timeframe they were engaging in a massive war with Species 8472 though, hence their delay.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Ersatz Cybermen. Never took them seriously myself, except perhaps for BOBW.

The Borg were also a great villain in First Contact.

No they weren't. They were pretty pathetic, really. I mean, after BOBW the Borg retaliate ... by sending in one cube. And then they rely on time travel to assault the Federation, which goes against everything they stood for (remember in the episodes the Borg were first introduced, when they said they assimilate other civilisation's technology? Why go back in time to assimilate the Federation, before it is even formed, and especially before they develop the technology the Borg sought). Then, when they beam over to the Enterprise, they still can't take over it.

And don't get me started on the the Borg Queen... ugh.

Patrick's right. The Borg paled in comparison to their conceptual predecessors, the Cybermen. Hell, the Cybermen even had better motivation, effectiveness, and stature.

[Robert Walper]

Patrick's right. The Borg paled in comparison to their conceptual predecessors, the Cybermen. Hell, the Cybermen even had better motivation, effectiveness, and stature.

Out of curiousity...who are the cybermen?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

One of the primary villians from Doctor Who. The Cybermen were natives of the twin Earth planet Mondas that drifted out of orbit into deep space ages ago. Over the years they gradually replaced their organic components with cybernetics, until finally virtually nothing remained of their former humanity. They posses a ruthless logic, devoid of any sort of compassion, sympathy, or emotion. Unlike the Borg, the Cybermen retain individual minds.

[DaveJB]

There was another species from Dr. Who that I think are another good analogue to the Borg - the Wirrn.

They were a bunch of giant insects, who had a hive mind and could gain knowledge by either eating people or sliming them (which would cause them to eventually become a Wirrn themself). In fact, I believe Maurice Hurley originally envisioned the Borg as insects!

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I wasn't actually trying to suggest the Cybermen as an analogy to the Borg, but that they were similar in nature, but far superior in behavior and intelegence.

[Stark]

The best aspect of the Cybermen was the way they kept harping on about being superior to humans because they lacked emotion, and then gloating, becoming angry, seeking revenge, torturing, and feeling satisfaction the whole way through.

But hey; at least they were immune to bullets.

[Robert Walper]

The best aspect of the Cybermen was the way they kept harping on about being superior to humans because they lacked emotion, and then gloating, becoming angry, seeking revenge, torturing, and feeling satisfaction the whole way through.

But hey; at least they were immune to bullets.

The Borg just need to adapt to them.

[Stark]

But hey; at least they were immune to bullets.

The Borg just need to adapt to them.

What they need is tinfoil suits, handles on their heads, and a series of inbuilt weapons. AND dildo-ships. AND learn how to 'assimilate' people without glueing big prosthetics on; with the Cybermen, you never can tell who they've got too... or made superstrong, etc.

[Uraniun235]

The Borg were also a great villain in First Contact.

Explain. I just saw zombies impervious to phaser fire with an evil queen overlord controlling them. How does this make them a "great villain"?

I think FC loses major points for being the film where Picard picks up that goddamn phaser rifle and doesn't put it down. Something's fucked up when Captain Picard is more of an action hero than Kirk ever was.

[Stark]

Explain. I just saw zombies impervious to phaser fire with an evil queen overlord controlling them. How does this make them a "great villain"?

I think FC loses major points for being the film where Picard picks up that goddamn phaser rifle and doesn't put it down. Something's fucked up when Captain Picard is more of an action hero than Kirk ever was.

I was more disappointed we didn't see more active anti-boarding measures; voiding to space, mesing with gravity, changing the atmosphere, pumping in coolant etc. It seems that all the hardware to control a particular corridor can the overcome in that same corridor, so the bridge had no access to any systems in the borg controlled section, and never used anything interesting to help their defenders in the contested compartments.

[The Yosemite Bear]

:et's face it they have been done better many other occasions...

the Berzerkers are better the n the borg
cybermen are better then the borg
Mootie supermen are better then the borg (fuck it, let's just have nanites in our blood to protect us from bad things, and heal us)
hell even survival horror Zombies are more of a threat then the borg.

[NecronLord]

I was more disappointed we didn't see more active anti-boarding measures; voiding to space,

Pointless, borg can survive in vacuum

mesing with gravity,

Main computer locked out

changing the atmosphere,

Pointless. Unless they had a lot of acid hanging around or somesuch.

pumping in coolant etc.

Overcomplex.

It seems that all the hardware to control a particular corridor can the overcome in that same corridor, so the bridge had no access to any systems in the borg controlled section,

Computer was locked out.

and never used anything interesting to help their defenders in the contested compartments.

We didn't actually see much of the fighting that was implied you know...

[Sharp-kun]

I was more disappointed we didn't see more active anti-boarding measures; voiding to space,

Pointless, borg can survive in vacuum

Wouldn't the Borg be sent flying away from the ship? How would they get back?

[Robert Walper]

I was more disappointed we didn't see more active anti-boarding measures; voiding to space,

Pointless, borg can survive in vacuum

Wouldn't the Borg be sent flying away from the ship? How would they get back?

This would be an effective tactic. Voyager did exactly that in STVOY "Scorpion". The Borg drones were blown out into space, although Seven of Nine was able to avoid the same fate by physically hanging onto the ship. Given enough drones, and enough surviving the atmosphere blowout, it might not be entirely effective.

Additionally, this tactic requires A) the affected decks being capable of being de-pressurized, and B) computer control to initiate said tactic. In the E-E's case, factor A is uncertain, and factor B obviously not possible.

In other words, the tactic is fairly sound, but the E-E couldn't have done it anyhow.