Kirk vs Picard

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-04-23 05:33am

Both captains get an Excelsior class starship. Since the Excelsior was in service in both TOS and TNG era both Kirk and Picard should be familiar with it. They however do not get their old bridge crew, the ships are crewed by standard starfleet crews

So who wins ?

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-04-23 06:01am

I vote for Kirk. I think hes best at improvising (which will give him the edge if both captains got the same ship/crew)

Picard seems to me more of the "let them shoot first" type of guy

Vohu Manah · Post by **Vohu Manah** » 2004-04-23 07:09am

Assuming both Captains knew they were going to battle one another, I give the battle to Picard (although a pacifist in general, the man can command in battle and I get the impression he is the strategist of the two). Kirk would have the edge if neither Captain had advance knowledge of their contest (Kirk seems more inclined to shoot first and never ask questions).

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-04-23 07:31am

Is Kirk's shirt ripped, and would that affect the battle?

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2004-04-23 07:38am

Sharp-kun wrote:Is Kirk's shirt ripped, and would that affect the battle?

I dont know much about TOS but I tought that only counts when they are on the ground

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-04-23 07:42am

wautd wrote:
Sharp-kun wrote:Is Kirk's shirt ripped, and would that affect the battle?
I dont know much about TOS but I tought that only counts when they are on the ground

Thats what I was wondering. I don't think we've ever seen him with a ripped shirt in ship to ship combat.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-04-23 10:52am

Kirk wins simply due to the fact that he doesn't pull punches. If his shirt gets ripped Picard's fucked even more.

Burak Gazan · Post by **Burak Gazan** » 2004-04-23 11:44am

Kirk also wins since he usually raises shields in a combat situation; Picard "doesnt want to appear hostile" -- which means he gets his ass blown away while pontificating and arm waving

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-04-23 12:19pm

Burak Gazan wrote:Kirk also wins since he usually raises shields in a combat situation; Picard "doesnt want to appear hostile" -- which means he gets his ass blown away while pontificating and arm waving

All of which is irrelevent. Next time you need to actualy contribute to the thread.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2004-04-23 12:26pm

My vote goes to Picard. Kirk has never commanded a ship more powerful than a connie. Picard is used to higher end technology. It's all very well Kirk knowing briefly what an Excelsior can do but he's never commanded one.

Also what generation of Excelsior is this in use?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-04-23 12:33pm

I'll assume both sides know the ship, sufficently.

They really don't have to, in many ways. Regardless of what we think of Trek...the captains give tactical orders....knowing how much they can push the ships have and always will be the domain of their engineers.

Also since the OP didn't say...no Scotty, no Geordi...no magical crew...just regular crews.

As to who would win, before I render a choice...any real record of Picard's ship to ship combat?

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-04-23 12:44pm

Ghost Rider wrote: As to who would win, before I render a choice...any real record of Picard's ship to ship combat?

Nothing overly spectacular as I recall, with the possible exception of the "Picard Manuever". Certainly nothing of the level shown by Kirk when he was up against Reliant.

Burak Gazan · Post by **Burak Gazan** » 2004-04-23 12:44pm

Alyeska wrote:
Burak Gazan wrote:Kirk also wins since he usually raises shields in a combat situation; Picard "doesnt want to appear hostile" -- which means he gets his ass blown away while pontificating and arm waving
All of which is irrelevent. Next time you need to actualy contribute to the thread.

Oh okay

Kirk wins

Simple enough for you?

Kirk is a fighter not a diplomat, so in a straight-up fight, he wins

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-04-23 12:58pm

Burak Gazan wrote:Kirk also wins since he usually raises shields in a combat situation; Picard "doesnt want to appear hostile" -- which means he gets his ass blown away while pontificating and arm waving

Ah, like in TWOK.

Oh, wait.

Burak Gazan · Post by **Burak Gazan** » 2004-04-23 01:04pm

Howedar wrote:
Burak Gazan wrote:Kirk also wins since he usually raises shields in a combat situation; Picard "doesnt want to appear hostile" -- which means he gets his ass blown away while pontificating and arm waving
Ah, like in TWOK.

Oh, wait.

Yeah, that time

Slightly loaded dice though: friendly ship, in federation space, said ship has his former navigator as XO AND he ignored Lieutenant Saavik's suggestion to follow standard procedure....

Plus, in Jim Kirk's own words "I must be getting senile!"

1337n1nj4 · Post by **1337n1nj4** » 2004-04-23 02:10pm

Kirk, just for the space-go-go-girl-hustling don't-give-a-fuck cowboy mentality. Kirk was the best thing Starfleet ever had going for them.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2004-04-23 03:16pm

Sharp-kun wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote: As to who would win, before I render a choice...any real record of Picard's ship to ship combat?
Nothing overly spectacular as I recall, with the possible exception of the "Picard Manuever". Certainly nothing of the level shown by Kirk when he was up against Reliant.

What? When Spock pointed out the flaw in Kahn's tatics?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-04-23 03:47pm

Kirk did seem rather adept at fooling Romulans and alien threats iirc. One of them being the Corbomite maneuver.

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2004-04-23 04:51pm

Presumably they both know they're going to fight, so each will raise his shields and come in ready to do what he thinks he must. If they don't know, then there is no fight. They sit down and reminisce about kicking Soran's ass, and Picard wonders how the hell Kirk came back to life. Kirk reveals that his shirt got ripped as he fell, and it turned his death into a short coma.

Seriously, though. Picard knows Kirk's moves and everything taught to Starfleeters for 70 years since Kirk's time. Kirk would be up against his own tactics, studied and refined and updated and in concert with everything Starfleet has learned since his time. And Picard is considerably smarter.

It's like Bruce Lee vs. Neo (with or without powers). Is Bruce cooler? Yes. But his skills are simply obsolete. Neo knows everything Bruce knows, and a whole bunch of other things that Bruce would need a lifetime to learn.

Bertie Wooster · Post by **Bertie Wooster** » 2004-04-23 07:11pm

I disagree with Metrion Cascade, even though she made some excellent points.

Kirk is more wily and unpredictable in tactical situations than Picard is. I'm presuming that Kirk would know that Picard is well-read in Kirk's historical record as a starfleet officer, but Kirk's unpredictable nature would more than compensate for Picard's knowledge of Kirk's tactics and maneuvers. If it was a debating contest, Picard would win, but we're talking about a ship battle here where every second counts and instincts are more important than having at their disposal historical data of one's opponent.

What will factor most in the battle is the respective Captain's effect on their crew and the crew of their opponent. I think that it was Darth Wong that said that Kirk's greatest strength was his ability to get his crew to perform at their very best. Kirk is such a legend too, that it will probably lower the morale of Picard's crew and make them less confident in their chances to win. Undoubtedly, Picard is more intelligent and has a broader base of historical knowledge to draw upon, but it seems to best manifest itself in abstract ethical dilemnas but Kirk's tactical prowess and morale bonus as THE starfleet legend would more than outdo Picard in battle. I think a more valid analogy would be to compare two identical English armies facing each other. One commanded by the legendary King Arthur, the other by Richard I. Richard I would have more education in medieval warfare, but unless Arthur turns out to be a total moron, Richard I's knowledge would be likely negated by the sheer morale of Arthur's troops.

1337n1nj4 · Post by **1337n1nj4** » 2004-04-23 07:11pm

Metrion Cascade wrote:Presumably they both know they're going to fight, so each will raise his shields and come in ready to do what he thinks he must. If they don't know, then there is no fight. They sit down and reminisce about kicking Soran's ass, and Picard wonders how the hell Kirk came back to life. Kirk reveals that his shirt got ripped as he fell, and it turned his death into a short coma.

Seriously, though. Picard knows Kirk's moves and everything taught to Starfleeters for 70 years since Kirk's time. Kirk would be up against his own tactics, studied and refined and updated and in concert with everything Starfleet has learned since his time. And Picard is considerably smarter.

It's like Bruce Lee vs. Neo (with or without powers). Is Bruce cooler? Yes. But his skills are simply obsolete. Neo knows everything Bruce knows, and a whole bunch of other things that Bruce would need a lifetime to learn.

Untrue.

Picard never learned Kirk's Babe-ology lessons, and seems to have only paid attention slightly in Ass-kicking 101.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-04-23 09:50pm

One thing I disagree with Metrion.

Just because you've studied someone means nothing in the realm of really what their tactics are.

This is no different then pitting say Ryan/Sheppard vs Rommel in a tank battle of equal standing.

Just because one knows what one's tactic are gives the advantage of you know what they are likely to do...does not guarantee victory.

Also the reason I asked of anything of Picard's ability is that we have a few TOS episode, in fact the first Romulan meeting episode with Kirk that shows a great deal of how Kirk handles some ship to ship combat.

Are there really any of Picard tactical ability because I'm drawing a blank on any visual info for him.

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2004-04-23 10:15pm

Ghost Rider wrote:One thing I disagree with Metrion.

Just because you've studied someone means nothing in the realm of really what their tactics are.

This is no different then pitting say Ryan/Sheppard vs Rommel in a tank battle of equal standing.

But Sheppard doesn't have experience on par with Rommel. Nor has he met Rommel. And I'm guessing, but IIRC Sheppard isn't a tank commander who's been trained by a military in Rommel's tactics, has he? Kirk and Picard (depending on when you yank Kirk from his history) have similar experience. Well, Picard might have more...it seems to me that Kirk didn't get to spend 15 years total commanding ships, let alone Picard's 15 on the E-D plus whatever he spent captaining the Stargazer.

Just because one knows what one's tactic are gives the advantage of you know what they are likely to do...does not guarantee victory.

Nothing guarantees it either way, but in terms of likelihood I'm stickin' with Picard. Assuming there is a captain who can beat Kirk, my money goes with the person who knows Kirk better than anyone else available. Add to that the fact that Kirk knows jack about Picard.

Of course, this is assuming that the two captains know who they're facing. If they're both out to destroy the other ship I don't see why they'd hail each other first. So if they don't know who they're up against, each just winds up analyzing the other's tactics instead of the person. Picard still has an edge, having seen many or most of these tactics before.

Also the reason I asked of anything of Picard's ability is that we have a few TOS episode, in fact the first Romulan meeting episode with Kirk that shows a great deal of how Kirk handles some ship to ship combat.

Are there really any of Picard tactical ability because I'm drawing a blank on any visual info for him.

Nemesis (IMO the E-E shouldn't have lasted ten minutes against the Scimitar once Shinzon decided he'd had enough). First Contact (although the Borg basically transmitted their Achilles' heel to Picard there, or he remembered the weakness from his time as a drone). Um...can't think of any others. He wasn't aboard during the battle in "Generations." Or the one in "Insurrection."

BUT - he did command the Borg at Wolf 359. Against multiple classes including the Excelsior class, I think. And several more advanced classes. Considering the Fed ships weren't being destroyed in one shot (and many weren't completely destroyed), some strategy must have been involved. And that's only a few years into his command of the E-D.

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2004-04-23 10:25pm

Bertie Wooster wrote:I disagree with Metrion Cascade, even though she made some excellent points.

Kirk is more wily and unpredictable in tactical situations than Picard is. I'm presuming that Kirk would know that Picard is well-read in Kirk's historical record as a starfleet officer, but Kirk's unpredictable nature would more than compensate for Picard's knowledge of Kirk's tactics and maneuvers. If it was a debating contest, Picard would win, but we're talking about a ship battle here where every second counts and instincts are more important than having at their disposal historical data of one's opponent.

What will factor most in the battle is the respective Captain's effect on their crew and the crew of their opponent. I think that it was Darth Wong that said that Kirk's greatest strength was his ability to get his crew to perform at their very best. Kirk is such a legend too, that it will probably lower the morale of Picard's crew and make them less confident in their chances to win. Undoubtedly, Picard is more intelligent and has a broader base of historical knowledge to draw upon, but it seems to best manifest itself in abstract ethical dilemnas but Kirk's tactical prowess and morale bonus as THE starfleet legend would more than outdo Picard in battle. I think a more valid analogy would be to compare two identical English armies facing each other. One commanded by the legendary King Arthur, the other by Richard I. Richard I would have more education in medieval warfare, but unless Arthur turns out to be a total moron, Richard I's knowledge would be likely negated by the sheer morale of Arthur's troops.

Assuming that the two crews know who they're fighting (and if they do, then some psychological rewiring is needed to make them fight each other). And I'm not so sure Kirk's that much more popular than Picard. It's not like we see Federation news broadcasts. Besides. The crews don't have the character shielding that simple morale brings main characters.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-04-23 10:36pm

Nemesis (IMO the E-E shouldn't have lasted ten minutes against the Scimitar once Shinzon decided he'd had enough). First Contact (although the Borg basically transmitted their Achilles' heel to Picard there, or he remembered the weakness from his time as a drone). Um...can't think of any others. He wasn't aboard during the battle in "Generations." Or the one in "Insurrection."

BUT - he did command the Borg at Wolf 359. Against multiple classes including the Excelsior class, I think. And several more advanced classes. Considering the Fed ships weren't being destroyed in one shot (and many weren't completely destroyed), some strategy must have been involved. And that's only a few years into his command of the E-D.

The problem is right there with your last statement.

I can understand you liking Picard more, but as to win counts Picard's tactical record seems extraordinarily sparse. Also just because he has had time with a ship does not mean he has had combat duty. Men in the military can go their entire lives never seeing combat does this mean they are better then a younger officer who's seen combat for most his career?

Also the Borg is piss poor example, he had superior firepower and had foreknowledge of whatever ability they had. For him to lose would be akin for the to seeing a Tank losing the a group of forty medival Scotsman. It won't happen. He had the a physical advantage they could never defeat, the level of tactics required is "Run Over them"

So the only advantage Picard has is knowledge of Kirk's popularized tactics...unless you seen him say that he's avidly studied Kirk and knows the man, to presume he knows anymore then say Riker is a leap of logic.