Borg

[Superman]

The real explanation woould be that B & B does not care about continuty.

I think we can apply Occam's Razor to your statement and say, yep, you're exactly right.[/code]

[NecronLord]

The in universe explantion might be the Borg underwent some sort of drastic change that reduced the collectives bandwidth. Hence they had to use consoles rather than real time mind mahcine interface to control their ship.

That might work actually. Humans are categoriesd as species 5XXX and the borg are now on to species 1XXXX which is, frankly, a stunning rate of progress in categorising and eliminating enemies, given how long they've been around. They may be assimilating far faster than they can build new Viniculums, Central Plexuses and so on...

[Robert Walper]

It's just like the doc on Voyager saying "the Borg don't investigate, they assimilate." Nope, wrong, B & B fucked up. They investigated on "Q Who."

Actually, that was Torres who said that. In STTNG "The Best of Both Worlds", Commander Riker said to Commander Shelby "They have the ability to analyse and adapt Commander!".

Now Commander Riker had actually encountered the Borg prior to his statement, while Torres was some Maquis crewmember who has never encoutered the Borg before. Frankly, I'd take Riker's word over Torres since he was speaking from experience and she had never encoutered Borg to our knowledge.

Jon, you're right. The whole concept of having buttons on a Borg cube is fucking retarded.

Actually, I pointed out earlier that having physical interfaces onboard Borg vessels is a good thing. If the hive mind were disabled or inoperative, the drones could still operate the ship. This would be a redundant design concept and eliminates a potential vulnerability. How is that bad?

Watch "Q Who." See any buttons?

We got to explore the entire Borg cube during "Q, Who?"? Why is it that people will point to an example and say "We didn't see it there, only later, so it must be new"? You have to take into account just how little we see of the Borg vessel then. Of course we're going to get more details about the workings of Borg ships if we see more of them later on.

All we see is some sort of central computer core that controls the ship. The drones don't pilot the fucking cubes.

Since the drones are the only crewmembers onboard, it would be ridiculas to assume anyone else in piloting the craft.

The Borg just became B & B's villain of the week. Thanks B & B. Thanks alot.

I guess it's a matter of taste. I think the Voyager era Borg were quite well done and entertaining.

[Robert Walper]

why do you think there's so many drones? gotta think redundancy.

According to one Voyger episode a Borg cube needs about 5000 drones to operate.

This was stated in STVOY "Collective" by Seven of Nine. She implied this was the minimum number of Borg required to effectively operate a Borg cube.

But in later episodes we learn that Borg cubes have around 17900 drones aboard. This is a serious overkill rather than redundancy.

The Borg Collective's objective is to assimilate species and technology. The fact that they have room for tens of thousands of Borg is not "overkill". This is merely space provided for newly aquired drones. Since a single Borg cube is considered a threat to a planet, it stands to reason one should be able to accomodate tens of thousands of new drones(two Borg cubes in STVOY "Dark Frontier" assimilated over three hundred thousand new Borg within a few hours). Frankly, given the sheer volume of a Borg cube and the small space required to support a single drone, one could even theorize a single Borg cube could transport hundreds of millions of drones at once if necessary.

[Robert Walper]

The in universe explantion might be the Borg underwent some sort of drastic change that reduced the collectives bandwidth. Hence they had to use consoles rather than real time mind mahcine interface to control their ship.

That might work actually. Humans are categoriesd as species 5XXX and the borg are now on to species 1XXXX which is, frankly, a stunning rate of progress in categorising and eliminating enemies, given how long they've been around. They may be assimilating far faster than they can build new Viniculums, Central Plexuses and so on...

I should point out, that while correct about the Borg Species list being over 10000 (10026 to be exact ), this doesn't mean the Borg have full out assimilated or eliminated said races, merely catagorized them. The Borg have catagorized the Kazon, who they deemed unworthy of assimilation.

Overall though, this is a impressive rate of exploration. What's even more interesting is that Species 8472 would presumeably be the latest species the Borg had encountered via the "Scorpion" timeframe, and yet by Dark Frontier the Borg had classified an additional 1,554 species.

[Ted C]

Overall though, this is a impressive rate of exploration. What's even more interesting is that Species 8472 would presumeably be the latest species the Borg had encountered via the "Scorpion" timeframe, and yet by Dark Frontier the Borg had classified an additional 1,554 species.

Don't go jumping to conclusions again, Robert. You can't assume that S8472 was recently discovered in "Scorpion" just because they had been recently targeted for assimilation.

The Borg may have known about S8472 for years before they actually got around to launching an assimilation operation into "fluidic space", an effort that would probably require considerable planning and preparation.

[Darth Wong]

It's just like the doc on Voyager saying "the Borg don't investigate, they assimilate." Nope, wrong, B & B fucked up. They investigated on "Q Who."

Actually, that was Torres who said that. In STTNG "The Best of Both Worlds", Commander Riker said to Commander Shelby "They have the ability to analyse and adapt Commander!"

And that contradicts the statement how? In "Q Who", we SAW them conducting investigation rather than assimilating technology or people. They didn't even alter the computer at all when checking it out. In "Scorpion", it was made very clear that they cannot do this; they're basically rendered impotent if they can't assimilate things.

Now Commander Riker had actually encountered the Borg prior to his statement, while Torres was some Maquis crewmember who has never encoutered the Borg before. Frankly, I'd take Riker's word over Torres since he was speaking from experience and she had never encoutered Borg to our knowledge.

How is any of this relevant to the fact that we WITNESSED them investigating in TNG and then being unable to do so in Voyager?

I guess it's a matter of taste. I think the Voyager era Borg were quite well done and entertaining.

That's because you're a fan-whore. They were a joke in Voyager, stripped of all the mystique and fearsome uniqueness that made them a good villain in TNG and made dangerous only through sheer numbers.

[Robert Walper]

Overall though, this is a impressive rate of exploration. What's even more interesting is that Species 8472 would presumeably be the latest species the Borg had encountered via the "Scorpion" timeframe, and yet by Dark Frontier the Borg had classified an additional 1,554 species.

Don't go jumping to conclusions again, Robert. You can't assume that S8472 was recently discovered in "Scorpion" just because they had been recently targeted for assimilation.

The Borg may have known about S8472 for years before they actually got around to launching an assimilation operation into "fluidic space", an effort that would probably require considerable planning and preparation.

Another good point. I stand corrected. I suppose would increase the the "intelligence" of the Collective, since you're suggesting they may not have gone "charging in" to destroy/assimilate Species 8472.

My initial interpretation was that the Borg did something along those lines because they percieved Species 8472 as the apex of biological evolution(along the lines of their arrogant self image). But the idea they could have done some pre planning before making this effort makes sense.

[Connor MacLeod]

It does seem like rather a lot though. You can vape about 80 Kg of human flesh for just under 20 Mj (It's here somewhere... Try archive searching my posts for "80 Kg") That's probably enough to boil most of Seven away. She'd better hope it doesn't malfunction.

Considering you need around 2.4-2.5 MJ to vaporize water, and that the average human body is around 60-65% water (for a guy, I think its a bit less for a woman), you need more like a hundred MJ at least to vaporize a human, and that doesnt even consider the other components (even if they constitute a minor remainder.) of the human body to be dealt with or the inefficiencies involved. 20 MJ to vaporize a 80 kg human is a bit low, methinks. (pulverizing or messily blowing apart a human... though... And 20 MJ would still do a fair bit of vaporization, though.)

[Robert Walper]

Actually, that was Torres who said that. In STTNG "The Best of Both Worlds", Commander Riker said to Commander Shelby "They have the ability to analyse and adapt Commander!"

And that contradicts the statement how? In "Q Who", we SAW them conducting investigation rather than assimilating technology or people. They didn't even alter the computer at all when checking it out. In "Scorpion", it was made very clear that they cannot do this; they're basically rendered impotent if they can't assimilate things.

It was my understanding that in Scorpion the Borg were rendered impotent because Species 8472 bitchslapped them at every turn and Species 8472 were virtually immune to counterattack.

Now Commander Riker had actually encountered the Borg prior to his statement, while Torres was some Maquis crewmember who has never encoutered the Borg before. Frankly, I'd take Riker's word over Torres since he was speaking from experience and she had never encoutered Borg to our knowledge.

How is any of this relevant to the fact that we WITNESSED them investigating in TNG and then being unable to do so in Voyager?

Strange, then how did the Borg have intel on species 10026 before launching a massive offensive agains them in STVOY "Dark Frontier"? Obviously they investigated beforehand and determined them worthy of assimilition. The Borg Queen was rattling off a shitload of information about them when discussing the upcoming assault.

I guess it's a matter of taste. I think the Voyager era Borg were quite well done and entertaining.

That's because you're a fan-whore. They were a joke in Voyager, stripped of all the mystique and fearsome uniqueness that made them a good villain in TNG and made dangerous only through sheer numbers.

Well, everyone has their opinion I suppose. There's plenty of Star Wars fans I've seen who shit all over the new Star Wars prequels because they don't like them, and would declare you a "fan whore" for liking them. But I regress.

[NecronLord]

20 MJ to vaporize a 80 kg human is a bit low, methinks. (pulverizing or messily blowing apart a human... though... And 20 MJ would still do a fair bit of vaporization, though.)

Oddly enough, that was a misprint, (which I've, embarassingly, been doing for some time) I meant to say partially there. It is indeed more a case of "messily blow a large hole in the torso" than "leave nothing left." The original context for that was the nineteen 'megathule' figure for IoM lasguns IIRC and how it fits (assuming that a megathule is a fucked up in universe word for megajoule) with discriptions of said weapons vaping parts or pulversing chests.

Question, was your figure assuming a starting temperature of ~37 °C?

[Metrion Cascade]

2.) Mr. Data's Malfunctioning Tongue Syndrome.

Maybe in "The Naked Now," Tasha Yar's vaginal muscles broke it? That might also explain why the only time I recall Data using a contraction was in "Encounter At Farpoint."

[Connor MacLeod]

Oddly enough, that was a misprint, (which I've, embarassingly, been doing for some time) I meant to say partially there. It is indeed more a case of "messily blow a large hole in the torso" than "leave nothing left." The original context for that was the nineteen 'megathule' figure for IoM lasguns IIRC and how it fits (assuming that a megathule is a fucked up in universe word for megajoule) with discriptions of said weapons vaping parts or pulversing chests.

I think I remember those vaguely, yeah... and its ok if it was a misprint.

Question, was your figure assuming a starting temperature of ~37 °C?

Don't recall because 1.) I did various calcs like that awhile back and b.) I generally work in Kelvin not Celcsius. I do think its a good deal much higher though if you factor in cremation or something like that.

[Darth Wong]

It was my understanding that in Scorpion the Borg were rendered impotent because Species 8472 bitchslapped them at every turn and Species 8472 were virtually immune to counterattack.

And this eliminated their ability to grab a couple of tissue samples ... how? Especially considering that Voyager was able to grab some by simply stumbling across the aftermath of a battle?

Strange, then how did the Borg have intel on species 10026 before launching a massive offensive agains them in STVOY "Dark Frontier"? Obviously they investigated beforehand and determined them worthy of assimilition. The Borg Queen was rattling off a shitload of information about them when discussing the upcoming assault.

Obviously because they'd assimilated some of them. Duh.

Well, everyone has their opinion I suppose. There's plenty of Star Wars fans I've seen who shit all over the new Star Wars prequels because they don't like them, and would declare you a "fan whore" for liking them. But I regress.

There's a huge difference between disagreeing on matters of subjective taste and doggedly insisting that a glaring inconsistency is not a glaring inconsistency no matter what desperate stretches of bullshit are required. How many kinds of stupid do you have to be in order to equate one to the other?

[Crazedwraith]

It was my understanding that in Scorpion the Borg were rendered impotent because Species 8472 bitchslapped them at every turn and Species 8472 were virtually immune to counterattack.

And this eliminated their ability to grab a couple of tissue samples ... how? Especially considering that Voyager was able to grab some by simply stumbling across the aftermath of a battle?

Well, it's kinda hard to grap tissue samples when your either Dead or the process of dying or really confuesd cause your ship was blown to bits and seperated from the collective.

[Robert Walper]

It was my understanding that in Scorpion the Borg were rendered impotent because Species 8472 bitchslapped them at every turn and Species 8472 were virtually immune to counterattack.

And this eliminated their ability to grab a couple of tissue samples ... how? Especially considering that Voyager was able to grab some by simply stumbling across the aftermath of a battle?

Well, it's kinda hard to grap tissue samples when your either Dead or the process of dying or really confuesd cause your ship was blown to bits and seperated from the collective.

Not to mention:
-Voyager getting a sample of Species 8472 tissue was an accident.
-Voyager lucked out that the Species 8472 ship did not pursue them. I think it's safe to conclude Species 8472 was far more vigilant with Borg vessels. Look at the Borg fleet for confirmation and the pilot killing surviving drones.
-The Borg were actively avoiding space under control by species 8472 (ie: the Northwest passage devoid of Borg activity)
-And your example.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Concerning the increasing rate of Borg species identification...

It's on the archive by now, but last year around this time I a series of rather crude calculations that showed a definately sharp increase within the last 100 years, by about a factor of 10, I think.

[Darth Wong]

And this eliminated their ability to grab a couple of tissue samples ... how? Especially considering that Voyager was able to grab some by simply stumbling across the aftermath of a battle?

Well, it's kinda hard to grap tissue samples when your either Dead or the process of dying or really confuesd cause your ship was blown to bits and seperated from the collective.

Oh right, and even after they destroyed a bio-ship by ramming it, they were incapable of swarming the site and retrieving tissue samples to work out their own design? Despite already knowing that the Holo-Doc's solution had something to do with their own nanoprobes?

Face it; the Borg were shown to be imbeciles in "Scorpion", and no amount of cheesy excuses will change that fact.

[Robert Walper]

Concerning the increasing rate of Borg species identification...

It's on the archive by now, but last year around this time I a series of rather crude calculations that showed a definately sharp increase within the last 100 years, by about a factor of 10, I think.

That would make sense. As the Collective grows, so does it's influence and rate of charting space and species.

[Darth Wong]

Not to mention:
-Voyager getting a sample of Species 8472 tissue was an accident.

Hardly. They retrieved an injured crewman. Sample collection was inevitable at that point.

Voyager lucked out that the Species 8472 ship did not pursue them. I think it's safe to conclude Species 8472 was far more vigilant with Borg vessels. Look at the Borg fleet for confirmation and the pilot killing surviving drones.

Yeah sure. One drone was standing there doggedly trying to assimilate the bio-ship, unmolested for an extended period of time. He could have easily used a knife to cut a piece of tissue out and then run, if the Borg were not imbeciles.

-The Borg were actively avoiding space under control by species 8472 (ie: the Northwest passage devoid of Borg activity)
-And your example.

How does this eliminate the FUCKING OBVIOUS need to grab a tissue sample? They're willing to throw away millions of crewers on utterly pointless missions with no realistic chance of success, but they can't think of anything better to do once a drone is within range of a bioship than to stand there like an idiot and keep trying to stick his tubules into it with no effect? And you honestly fail to see how this proves they're morons?

[Robert Walper]

And this eliminated their ability to grab a couple of tissue samples ... how? Especially considering that Voyager was able to grab some by simply stumbling across the aftermath of a battle?

Well, it's kinda hard to grap tissue samples when your either Dead or the process of dying or really confuesd cause your ship was blown to bits and seperated from the collective.

Oh right, and even after they destroyed a bio-ship by ramming it, they were incapable of swarming the site and retrieving tissue samples to work out their own design?

What makes you think there was any bio material left to retrieve? That ramming incident took place at warp factors. Whatever the hell warp does to achieve FTL speeds could've rendered any bio material completely irretrievable.

And what exactly would stop Species 8472 from counter "swarming" to said location to prevent the Borg from doing exactly that? Just ten bioships could handle one hundred fifty cubes easily enough.

[Robert Walper]

Not to mention:
-Voyager getting a sample of Species 8472 tissue was an accident.

Hardly. They retrieved an injured crewman. Sample collection was inevitable at that point.

The fact it was inevitable does not change the fact it was an accident. Voyager did not beam the away team over for the purpose of getting a tissue sample, nor did they intend to get attacked by the pilot.

Yeah sure. One drone was standing there doggedly trying to assimilate the bio-ship, unmolested for an extended period of time. He could have easily used a knife to cut a piece of tissue out and then run, if the Borg were not imbeciles.

And just where the hell is the drone going to run, Mike? To the next fully fully functional Borg lab within the destroyed cube fragement? While a pilot is hunting down and killing Borg survivors? Yeah, sure.

How does this eliminate the FUCKING OBVIOUS need to grab a tissue sample?

Knowing the need to get a tissue sample does not magically give them the capability to acquire one Mike.

They're willing to throw away millions of crewers on utterly pointless missions with no realistic chance of success, but they can't think of anything better to do once a drone is within range of a bioship than to stand there like an idiot and keep trying to stick his tubules into it with no effect? And you honestly fail to see how this proves they're morons?

I fail to see how that drone could've accomplished anything at all. No working lab, no reinforcements, a Species 8472 pilot hunting down and killing drone survivors, etc.

[Darth Wong]

What makes you think there was any bio material left to retrieve? That ramming incident took place at warp factors. Whatever the hell warp does to achieve FTL speeds could've rendered any bio material completely irretrievable.

I see you have resorted to outright bullfuckery to support your viewpoint. The RELATIVE VELOCITY was far lower than that, you fucking bullshitter.

And what exactly would stop Species 8472 from counter "swarming" to said location to prevent the Borg from doing exactly that? Just ten bioships could handle one hundred fifty cubes easily enough.

Not when their ONLY FUCKING OBJECTIVE IS TO GET A TINY SAMPLE AND THEN RUN AWAY, moron.

[Darth Wong]

The fact it was inevitable does not change the fact it was an accident. Voyager did not beam the away team over for the purpose of getting a tissue sample, nor did they intend to get attacked by the pilot.

Irrelevant. The point is that it's easy to get a sample. So easy, in fact, that Voyager got one without even intending to. Thanks for supporting my point, idiot.

Yeah sure. One drone was standing there doggedly trying to assimilate the bio-ship, unmolested for an extended period of time. He could have easily used a knife to cut a piece of tissue out and then run, if the Borg were not imbeciles.

And just where the hell is the drone going to run, Mike? To the next fully fully functional Borg lab within the destroyed cube fragement? While a pilot is hunting down and killing Borg survivors? Yeah, sure.

An escape pod, a distant part of the ship, anywhere. Do you really think the pilot was taking the time to kill each and every drone everywhere in the entire 27 cubic kilometre cube no matter where it was hiding? The goddamned drone could have simply launched himself into space, for fuck's sake. They can survive in vacuum, remember? There are thousands of the little fuckers and these engagements had been going on for months. The only viable reason for their failure to obtain a single tissue sample throughout all of those engagements was stupidity.

How does this eliminate the FUCKING OBVIOUS need to grab a tissue sample?

Knowing the need to get a tissue sample does not magically give them the capability to acquire one Mike.

And you have utterly failed to prove that it was impossible for them to get one, moron. The fact is that we saw onscreen that they WEREN'T EVEN TRYING. Your moronic insistence on trying to explain away Borg stupidity with mountainous piles of bullfuckery will not change that.

I fail to see how that drone could've accomplished anything at all. No working lab, no reinforcements, a Species 8472 pilot hunting down and killing drone survivors, etc.

You're a moron; there is no evidence whatsoever that the pilot was methodically hunting down and killing every single survivor, particularly since it stayed so close to its ship that it returned in minutes. And those ships are not that hard to destroy, as demonstrated by the fact that one of them was destroyed by a low-velocity ramming attack and another was destroyed by the Hirogen in a subsequent episode. The pilot would have to be a complete imbecile to stray too far from his ship, since a drone could easily march into the open vessel with a fucking bomb and blow it up.

In fact, the mere fact that the cube was not simpy obliterated by the bioships indicates that they were not interested in taking the time to exterminate every single drone. Add to that the fact that THE DRONE DOES NOT NEED TO GET TO A LAB, YOU IDIOT. It only needs to get away from the S-8472 pilot long enough for a scout ship to scoot in and take him away. Voyager waltzed in there without attracting attention and left without a hitch; your moronic insistence that it was impossible for the Borg to extract a single drone is so fucking stupid that it's beyond belief.

[Robert Walper]

What makes you think there was any bio material left to retrieve? That ramming incident took place at warp factors. Whatever the hell warp does to achieve FTL speeds could've rendered any bio material completely irretrievable.

I see you have resorted to outright bullfuckery to support your viewpoint. The RELATIVE VELOCITY was far lower than that, you fucking bullshitter.

I wasn't referring to the ship's relative velocities, Mike. I was pointing out the sudden disapearance of the warp fields surrounding both ships, coupled with the destruction of both vessels could have resulted in some very extreme effects/stresses effectively destroying anything worthwhile obtaining later on. Hell, the explosion alone, ignoring warp "variables" and effects, could easily have vaporized any viable material to work with.

And what exactly would stop Species 8472 from counter "swarming" to said location to prevent the Borg from doing exactly that? Just ten bioships could handle one hundred fifty cubes easily enough.

Not when their ONLY FUCKING OBJECTIVE IS TO GET A TINY SAMPLE AND THEN RUN AWAY, moron.

That would be dependent upon viable material having survived the destruction(highly questionable), the Borg reaching the site first, and the Borg being able to outrun pursuit by Species 8472 ships. Alot of "if's" dependent upon a dubious claim of viable material having survived the destruction of both vessels while at warp speeds.

And frankly, I fail to see how you can assert the Borg didn't investigate the site afterwards, since we don't know either way.