Nemesis: Alters Federation Strategic Evaluation?

[Col. Crackpot]

Why would it be more powerful? It wouldn't have the combat surface area of a separated Prometheus (the original having many weapons which are hidden in joined mode), or have any reason to carry multiple warp cores. The Prometheus is basically three ships made to fit together.

And what evidence is there that the Prometheus is as powerful as a Sovereign?

3 WARP CORES. Granted the are likey less powerful individually than a sovereign core, but it is akin to using 3 40 watt light bulbs instead of a single 100 watt bulb in your lamp.

[Lancer]

This should be framed as a monument to your ongoing stupidity. Tonnage has nothing to with the relative strength of ships? Let me clue you in on a little secret. Greater tonnage = more space for weapons.

Let me clue you in on something here. We are talking about two seperate technological cultures using similar but different weapons. They are not directly comparable.

And what was the shield strength of the Valdore when it took those hits? For that matter, did the E-E ever take as many hits as the Valdore did all at once?

The E-E took more then twice as much firepower as the Valdore took at a single moment. Furthermore the E-E took more then 10 times the sustained damage in one aspect of the battle when it took heavy fire for several seconds.

during the battle sequence, the Scimitar took potshots at the E-E over an extended duration at range and over a large portion of it's shield facings with the express intent to disable the E-E. In comparison, a Valdore took a point-blank range blast meant to kill from all forward disruptor banks into a small reigion of it's shields at once.

And that tells us what about the Valdores firepower? Do you know what effect a Romulan disruptor has on the Scimitars inertial dampers versus a Federation phaser? Do you really need to have it spelled out to you why this is a faulty line of reasoning?

Damage is fucking damage. Whenever the greater rocking occured the bridge of the Scimitar was fucking sparking and consoles blowing up. Internal systems were also being damaged. The E-E was causing system failures on the Scimitar. The Valdores were a minor nuicance.

I'll need to check this on my copy of Nemisis, but I seem to recall that the Scimitar was being sparked by the Valdore, not the E-E. The extensive damage sequence was done by the (by now) infamous ramming incident, which only shows us that the E-E has a stronger hull superstructure than the Scimitar.

[Alyeska]

during the battle sequence, the Scimitar took potshots at the E-E over an extended duration at range and over a large portion of it's shield facings with the express intent to disable the E-E. In comparison, a Valdore took a point-blank range blast meant to kill from all forward disruptor banks into a small reigion of it's shields at once.

After Picard did the Quantum Torpedo strike on the Enterprise E, Schinzon launched an extremely vicous attack using more weapons then ever shown before, and he did this for an EXTENDED period of time.

I'll need to check this on my copy of Nemisis, but I seem to recall that the Scimitar was being sparked by the Valdore, not the E-E. The extensive damage sequence was done by the (by now) infamous ramming incident, which only shows us that the E-E has a stronger hull superstructure than the Scimitar.

Nothing the Romulans did compard to the damage the E-E inflicted.

[Stark]

You'd think the Federation would build a monument to the crew of those two romulan ships, because if there hadn't been so many targets the E-E doubtless would have come off much worse. Although they'd probably still have won, since Shinzons and idiot.

And Alyeska, where does your confident statements of vessel capability come from? You make statements like 'x is 3 times better than y' without any evidence. I've watched ST; the battles are fought from a narrative perspective, hardly a military or factual one. I'd be fascinated to examine the research that has led you to these compelling conclusions.

[Alyeska]

You'd think the Federation would build a monument to the crew of those two romulan ships, because if there hadn't been so many targets the E-E doubtless would have come off much worse. Although they'd probably still have won, since Shinzons and idiot.

And Alyeska, where does your confident statements of vessel capability come from? You make statements like 'x is 3 times better than y' without any evidence. I've watched ST; the battles are fought from a narrative perspective, hardly a military or factual one. I'd be fascinated to examine the research that has led you to these compelling conclusions.

If you had bothered to read what I have posted, I explained exactly where I was comming from on comparing the firepower of a GCS to the firepower of a Sovereign.

[Vympel]

Can someone point out the Akira tubes to me?

[Alyeska]

http://www.lcarscom.net/fsd/art/images/da-6.jpg

This picture shows 7 torpedo launchers. While this was a drawing of what was intended, it did make it into the actual model.

http://www.lcarscom.net/fsd/art/images/da-3.jpg

This is the actual CGI model. Note that the 7 launchers are still there.

http://www.lcarscom.net/fsd/art/images/da-4.gif

This drawing shows three launchers above the deflector dish and one below. In First Contact we see it using the upper launchers. Also note in the previous CGI model the single lower launcher is visible.

http://www.lcarscom.net/fsd/art/images/da-2.jpg

Note the indentation at the very port and starboard sides of the saucer? Those are side firing torpedo launchers. Two on each side. Again these features make it on the CGI model.

That gives the Akira 11 forward torpedo launchers, 2 port, and 2 starboard.

[Stark]

If you had bothered to read what I have posted, I explained exactly where I was comming from on comparing the firepower of a GCS to the firepower of a Sovereign.

Is that your answer to a request for evidence?

That gives the Akira 11 forward torpedo launchers, 2 port, and 2 starboard.

Aren't there two tubes on each of the pods' rear bevelled edges?

[Alyeska]

Is that your answer to a request for evidence?

A Sovereign class effectively has 3 torpedo launchers and 1 quantum torpedo launcher along with a half dozen large Type-12 arrays facing forward. A Galaxy class has 1 torpedo launcher (which can fire twice as many torpedoes as the Soverign launchers) and 2 Very Large Type-10 arrays facing forward. Strictly speaking the Type-12 array is more powerful, but with the size of a Type-10 array you can possibly get a more powerful charged shot. Taking into account the larger number of arrays on the Sovereign as well as its Quantum torpedo launcher, I estimate the Sovereign has effectively 3 times the firepower of a Galaxy class on its forward arc.

Aren't there two tubes on each of the pods' rear bevelled edges?

That is an assumption. Given how there are 7 torpedo lanuchers facing forward and there must be either a torpedo supply or loading system, I don't think there is enough room. Furthermore it was stated the model has 15 launchers and I have identified all 15.

[seanrobertson]

Is that your answer to a request for evidence?

A Sovereign class effectively has 3 torpedo launchers and 1 quantum torpedo launcher along with a half dozen large Type-12 arrays facing forward. A Galaxy class has 1 torpedo launcher (which can fire twice as many torpedoes as the Soverign launchers) and 2 Very Large Type-10 arrays facing forward. Strictly speaking the Type-12 array is more powerful, but with the size of a Type-10 array you can possibly get a more powerful charged shot. Taking into account the larger number of arrays on the Sovereign as well as its Quantum torpedo launcher, I estimate the Sovereign has effectively 3 times the firepower of a Galaxy class on its forward arc.

Alyeska,

I largely agree here.

I need to crunch some numbers before I agree with 3x the fwd. firepower, perhaps, but after looking at some of your other ballpark figures (e.g., the idea that a GCS can only focus ~50% of its total firepower fwd.), I can see there's a fair amount of work behind the conclusions you've presented in the thread.

Slightly off-topic: I'd like to suggest that you keep a file with all of your figures in it--maybe just a copy-and-paste job of relevant posts in a Word file. I'm kicking myself for not doing that a long time ago...too often, I would make [what I think are] some decent conclusions about something only to later forget what I'd said (!).

And back on-topic: If you haven't done this already, a good first entry would be your thoughts on quantum vs. photon torpedo yields. Since the _DS9 TM_ is inadmissable in most circles, I've little doubt you have reason to think q-torps are significantly more powerful than photorps.

I got the general impression of that from "Nemesis." And I know Quark told the people at Roswell q-torps were "more expensive [than photon torpedoes], but worth it!"

But I've been away for awhile, and if this has since been much discussed, I cannot find anything from quick search of the site. Please clarify.

[The Kernel]

Alyeska,

Since I can't seem to get my Nemesis DVD back anytime soon, I'll concede all the arguments I made. I would like to offer one last point about your Nemesis conclusions though: Shinzon was trying to kill the Valdores, but he wanted the E-E intact (he needed Picard after all) so I think it is a somewhat dubious place to extract useful damage assesments of the E-E vs. Valdore.

I would also point out that if everything you have said is true, the Romulans certainly don't appear to be fielding anything that can compete with the Federation pound for pound aside from the Scimitar (even that is uncertain as we don't have a Federation Dreadnought to compare it to).

[Alyeska]

Alyeska,

Since I can't seem to get my Nemesis DVD back anytime soon, I'll concede all the arguments I made. I would like to offer one last point about your Nemesis conclusions though: Shinzon was trying to kill the Valdores, but he wanted the E-E intact (he needed Picard after all) so I think it is a somewhat dubious place to extract useful damage assesments of the E-E vs. Valdore.

I would also point out that if everything you have said is true, the Romulans certainly don't appear to be fielding anything that can compete with the Federation pound for pound aside from the Scimitar (even that is uncertain as we don't have a Federation Dreadnought to compare it to).

I would like to point out that just because Schinzon wanted Picard alive doesn't necessarily mean he will be attacking it less then the Valdores. Imagine this way. The Enterprise-E is a Fast Battleship while the Valdores are nothing more then Quickstrike Cruisers. Schinzon naturaly has to use more firepower on the Enterprise-E just to disable it then he needs on the Valdores to destroy them.

[Rah]

Besides wouldn't the best strategy to get Picard be to quickly as possible drop the Ent-E shields and beam him out and then move, safely, cloaked away or just destroy the Ent?

[Stark]

A Sovereign class effectively has 3 torpedo launchers and 1 quantum torpedo launcher along with a half dozen large Type-12 arrays facing forward. A Galaxy class has 1 torpedo launcher (which can fire twice as many torpedoes as the Soverign launchers) and 2 Very Large Type-10 arrays facing forward. Strictly speaking the Type-12 array is more powerful, but with the size of a Type-10 array you can possibly get a more powerful charged shot. Taking into account the larger number of arrays on the Sovereign as well as its Quantum torpedo launcher, I estimate the Sovereign has effectively 3 times the firepower of a Galaxy class on its forward arc.

I'm not arguing the physical aspect, but I'm wondering if there are any references for the whole 'type XII phaser' thing, since I've only seen it in stuff like the RPG. Again, I'm not disputing that E-Es phasers are more powerful, simply looking for a way to quantify it. I assumed the pair of ventral torps was similar to the larger tube on the GCS, and that the phasers had a higher rate of fire, but I've got nothing specific to base any numbers on. Twice the torp firepower + at least 1.5x the phaser output seems conservative enough, though.

That is an assumption. Given how there are 7 torpedo lanuchers facing forward and there must be either a torpedo supply or loading system, I don't think there is enough room. Furthermore it was stated the model has 15 launchers and I have identified all 15.

Kewl. Its a shame they don't make ST episodes with a mind to establishing precedent; if even one ep had shown the Akira letting rip with her 11 forward tubes we'd even know how many shots each can fire before reloading. Ah well, not all SF can be like SG1.

[Lancer]

Besides wouldn't the best strategy to get Picard be to quickly as possible drop the Ent-E shields and beam him out and then move, safely, cloaked away or just destroy the Ent?

it's a matter of pride. He can't just annihilate the Fed, he has to take it apart slowly, piece by piece before an audience. Basically your standard ego-villian gloating complex.

[Rah]

Besides wouldn't the best strategy to get Picard be to quickly as possible drop the Ent-E shields and beam him out and then move, safely, cloaked away or just destroy the Ent?

it's a matter of pride. He can't just annihilate the Fed, he has to take it apart slowly, piece by piece before an audience. Basically your standard ego-villian gloating complex.

By the time the Ent and the Scimitar engage in battle it's a matter of survival for Shitson, there is no time for pride any-longer. His time for toying with Picard was above Romulus.

[Crazedwraith]

Besides wouldn't the best strategy to get Picard be to quickly as possible drop the Ent-E shields and beam him out and then move, safely, cloaked away or just destroy the Ent?

it's a matter of pride. He can't just annihilate the Fed, he has to take it apart slowly, piece by piece before an audience. Basically your standard ego-villian gloating complex.

By the time the Ent and the Scimitar engage in battle it's a matter of survival for Shitson, there is no time for pride any-longer. His time for toying with Picard was above Romulus.

Tj=hen what the hell was wit the holgraphic taunting? The swooping dwon face-to-face with the E-E shit?