No doctor-patient confidentiality in the federation?

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2004-04-14 05:16pm

In the episode where Dr. Soong's ex-wife shows up, Data begins to suspect that she's an android (which she is) and goes to Dr. Crusher and asks to see her medical records. He gives very little in the way of explaination as to why he wants to see them, yet she calls them up for him anyway.

Was this just an isolated incident with Dr. Crusher violating doctor's ethics, or perhaps she felt it was all right because Data was the woman's "son"? Have we ever seen her, Bashir, or the Doctor from voyager handing out tidbits of info that should be confidentail on other occasions?

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2004-04-14 07:31pm

I'm pretty sure its been done quite a few times.

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2004-04-14 07:56pm

In the 'Military' enviroment of a Starship, the ships second officer could quite possibility have the authority to see the records.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-04-14 10:06pm

Also, it is Data. He has the same safegaurds as the ships computer

(falls over laughing at the thought of hacking Data)

Anyway, he's extremely unlikely to give out patient information

Besides, he could probably just hook up to the computer and download them anyway.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2004-04-14 10:32pm

I remember the Doctor kept several secrets from the crew(when Tuvok was experiencing the Pon Far and his brain deterioration made up during the final episode.

I never liked Crusher anyways, fuck the whole family.

DaveJB · Post by **DaveJB** » 2004-04-15 05:35am

I can see how Data could force the records out of Crusher if it was a crewmember, but the fact that he was able to do it for a civillian is slightly more concerning, IMO.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2004-04-15 07:17am

The EMH still does it a beleive although he did tell Neelix about the *ahem on tuvok's backside......

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2004-04-16 11:08am

The Federation and Starfleet ar Meritocracies...organizations based on not power or popularity, but ability. Decision makers are chosen for their aptitude, training, and experience. Decision making is based on access to information. Subordinating Confidentiality to Authority is justified on the premise "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one".

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-04-16 11:50am

Enola Straight wrote:The Federation and Starfleet ar Meritocracies...organizations based on not power or popularity, but ability. Decision makers are chosen for their aptitude, training, and experience. Decision making is based on access to information. Subordinating Confidentiality to Authority is justified on the premise "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one".

do you have any sources for this? i don't recall ever hearing anything this specific, although it seems to be somewhat implied.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2004-04-16 11:57am

This is a society in which the telepathic Betazoids are allowed to mix freely with other, non-telepathic species without any restrictions on the use of their telepathic abilities. In a society which places so little value on privacy, why would you expect doctor/patient privilege to be protected?

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-04-16 01:19pm

Ted C wrote:This is a society in which the telepathic Betazoids are allowed to mix freely with other, non-telepathic species without any restrictions on the use of their telepathic abilities. In a society which places so little value on privacy, why would you expect doctor/patient privilege to be protected?

How are you suppose to restrict a "remote" telepath's (not a "touch" telepath like Vulcans) abilities without going to the extreme of the Devore Imperium in that episode "Counterpoint" (Voyager, Season 5).

Oh well, the attitude of most betazoids I've seen on screen (especially Troi's mother) tends to piss me off (the only one who isn't annoying is Troi, but she's only half Betazoid). I hope they were well taken care of by the tender mercies of the Jem'Hadar during the Dominion occupation of Betazed

.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-04-16 01:21pm

Ma Deuce wrote:
Ted C wrote:This is a society in which the telepathic Betazoids are allowed to mix freely with other, non-telepathic species without any restrictions on the use of their telepathic abilities. In a society which places so little value on privacy, why would you expect doctor/patient privilege to be protected?
How are you suppose to restrict a "remote" telepath's (not a "touch" telepath like Vulcans) abilities without going to the extreme of the Devore Imperium in that episode "Counterpoint" (Voyager, Season 5).

babylon 5 has telepathic police that regulate and monitor the use of other telepathic abilities. scans done without the permission are grounds for punishment. Something like that could be incorporated without going to the extremes that were shown in voyager.

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-04-16 01:32pm

Darth_Zod wrote:babylon 5 has telepathic police that regulate and monitor the use of other telepathic abilities. scans done without the permission are grounds for punishment. Something like that could be incorporated without going to the extremes that were shown in voyager.

I'm aware of B5's telepathic police, but does the Federation even have the technolegy to moniter the use of telepathic abilities (especially "remote" abilities like with Betazoids?). I could be wrong, but I don't recall that they do.

BTW a bit of a skew from the original topic, but one thing has always puzzled me (from "Encounter at Farpoint"): How was the governer of Farpoint Station (Gropler Zorn) apparently able to know that Troi was a Betazoid (well, he didn't know she was only half betazoid, but all the same) just by looking at her, when Betazoids appear to be externally identical to humans?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-04-16 01:35pm

Ma Deuce wrote:
Darth_Zod wrote:babylon 5 has telepathic police that regulate and monitor the use of other telepathic abilities. scans done without the permission are grounds for punishment. Something like that could be incorporated without going to the extremes that were shown in voyager.
I'm aware of B5's telepathic police, but does the Federation even have the technolegy to moniter the use of telepathic abilities (especially "remote" abilities like with Betazoids?). I could be wrong, but I don't recall that they do.

in DS9 Odo mentioned to his crew details on a telepathic criminal they were tracking and made mention on keeping well out of his telepathic range. so they at least have the ability to determine whether or not someone is a telepath. not entirely certain about monitoring them though.

BTW a bit of a skew from the original topic, but one thing has always puzzled me (from "Encounter at Farpoint"): How was the governer of Farpoint Station (Gropler Zorn) apparently able to know that Troi was a Betazoid (well, he didn't know she was only half betazoid, but all the same) just by looking at her, when Betazoids appear to be externally identical to humans?

Betazeds have pure black eyes. which is a major giveaway to their heritage. (as per startrek.com)

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-04-16 01:52pm

Betazeds have pure black eyes. which is a major giveaway to their heritage. (as per startrek.com)

Interesting, I didn't know that... But then, I don't spend much time at startrek.com

.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2004-04-16 03:23pm

Darth_Zod wrote:
BTW a bit of a skew from the original topic, but one thing has always puzzled me (from "Encounter at Farpoint"): How was the governer of Farpoint Station (Gropler Zorn) apparently able to know that Troi was a Betazoid (well, he didn't know she was only half betazoid, but all the same) just by looking at her, when Betazoids appear to be externally identical to humans?
Betazeds have pure black eyes. which is a major giveaway to their heritage. (as per startrek.com)

Yet Trio is only Half-betaziod had has normal eyes, so still how did he know?

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2004-04-16 04:49pm

Darth_Zod wrote:Betazeds have pure black eyes. which is a major giveaway to their heritage. (as per startrek.com)

I believe this claim is refuted every time Luwaxana Troi appears on screen, since I've never noticed unusual eye coloration. Anyone have a close-up screen capture of Luwaxana for confirmation?

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2004-04-16 04:57pm

Ma Deuce wrote:How are you suppose to restrict a "remote" telepath's (not a "touch" telepath like Vulcans) abilities without going to the extreme of the Devore Imperium in that episode "Counterpoint" (Voyager, Season 5).

Developing the means to enforce a law against unsolicited telepathic contact is a separate problem from actually enacting such a law. Sometimes you can solve such a crime from simple investigation; a telepath might use information that couldn't be obtained any other way.

Given that there are at least two humanoid "species" known to the Federation that aren't affected by Betazoid telepathy (the Ferengi and the Kaelons from "Half a Life"), you'd think that someone in the Federation would be researching why the Betazoids can't "read" them and using that information to develop anti-telepathic technology.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2004-04-16 05:56pm

Ted C wrote:
Darth_Zod wrote:Betazeds have pure black eyes. which is a major giveaway to their heritage. (as per startrek.com)
I believe this claim is refuted every time Luwaxana Troi appears on screen, since I've never noticed unusual eye coloration. Anyone have a close-up screen capture of Luwaxana for confirmation?

I just checked TNG:"Dark Page" and the iris of both Lwaxana and Deanna do appear to be all black or at least very dark. Other then that their eyes look normal. Google turned up these 1, 2 and 3, her iris appears to be black in those pictures as well.

EDIT: Tam Elbrun (Harry Groener) also has an all black iris in TNG:"Tin Man". I think Darth_Zod was right.

DaveJB · Post by **DaveJB** » 2004-04-16 06:05pm

Just did some experimenting with those three pictures in Photoshop, her eyes are black as far as I can tell, even with severe overexposure.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-04-16 11:41pm

Ted C wrote:Given that there are at least two humanoid "species" known to the Federation that aren't affected by Betazoid telepathy (the Ferengi and the Kaelons from "Half a Life"), you'd think that someone in the Federation would be researching why the Betazoids can't "read" them and using that information to develop anti-telepathic technology.

The Federation may lack the knowledge needed to implement any anti-telepath measures they may (or may not) have discovered from studying the Ferengi and the Kaelons. IIRC, Data explicitly said at some point there was no known technology capable of blocking telepaths.

Is it possible there's simply no anti-telepath technology in the Star Trek universe?

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2004-04-17 01:05am

Chris OFarrell wrote:In the 'Military' enviroment of a Starship, the ships second officer could quite possibility have the authority to see the records.

But for one reason the person in question is not a member of the crew!

As such I doubt Crusher should have the authority to simply draw up her records. Not once is her private physician asked for permission to see the records. She is a Civilian who is not even a member of the crew. Niether Data's or the Doctor has authority to view the records unless she is in need of medical attention. Even then Data would not have the authority. Even with the fact that this is his "dad's" ex-wife still would not justify it with out an inquiry into the reasons.

Edit fixed spelling

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-04-17 04:01am

But for one reason the person in question is not a member of the crew!

Doesn't matter. The ship's third-in-command has reason to believe that a passenger aboard the ship is not who she says she is; that's a potential security risk.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2004-04-17 04:19am

Isolder74 wrote:As such I doubt Crusher should have the authority to simply draw up her records. Not once is her private physician asked for permission to see the records. She is a Civilian who is not even a member of the crew. Niether Data's or the Doctor has authority to view the records unless she is in need of medical attention. Even then Data would not have the authority. Even with the fact that this is his "dad's" ex-wife still would not justify it with out an inquiry into the reasons.

They don't actually check her medical records, just her transporter trace pattern. Which brings up an interresting question, would doctor patient privilege even apply in this case? Crusher was not Juliana Taners physician and had not treated her for anything.

In any case, the dialogue during the scene in which Data asks for her medical records:

Crusher: Data, why do you wan't to look at Doctor Taners medical records, is something wrong with her?
Data: I was hoping that you would be able to determine that from her transporter trace pattern.
Crusher: Well, propably I could, but ordinarily I don't check somebodys medical status with out a good reason.
Data: Doctor, I would ask that you not require me to be more specific, I assure you I have a good reason for asking.
Crusher: Allright Data <pulls up the transporter trace pattern on a view screen>, at first clance I see nothing wrong with her, except for a mild case of hypertension, which is normal for a woman her age.
Data: I see.
Crusher: Maybe you should tell me what her symptoms are.
Data: She has not complained of any discomfort.
Crusher: Then why do you wan't to see her medical records.
Data: Because I have reason to belief she is not who she claims to be.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2004-04-17 01:21pm

Uraniun235 wrote:
But for one reason the person in question is not a member of the crew!
Doesn't matter. The ship's third-in-command has reason to believe that a passenger aboard the ship is not who she says she is; that's a potential security risk.

No because ship security is not his responsibility. That belongs to Worf. At this time Data has no grounds under his authority to request this information. In the dialogue quoted Crusher gives him his information without him telling her why. She just did it because it was Data who asked.