Nemesis: Alters Federation Strategic Evaluation?

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2004-04-12 11:23pm

Aya wrote:Norexan class?

Edit: Yes and the same flagship fought the Scimitar to a standstill, then defeated it. The E-E's phasers were dry as a bone and I believe she even ran out of torpedos.

Norexan is what a lot of people are calling the Romulan class seen in Nemesis (the Valdore and the other ship like it). I think it's from an early script or something. My evaluation of the Scimitar's performance:

- disabled two of the Romulans' best warbirds in short order, causing massive structural damage to one
- disabled the best thing Starfleet ever fielded
- was destroyed only by internal sabotage, made possible by the commander's psychotic fixation on Picard
- suffered (from the combat) a 30% shield loss and the loss of its cloak while totally disabling three of the AQ's best warships

Under any other commander with Shinzon's experience (but not his insanity), the Scimitar would have handily destroyed all three ships and Earth.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-04-12 11:29pm

Metrion Cascade wrote:Norexan is what a lot of people are calling the Romulan class seen in Nemesis (the Valdore and the other ship like it). I think it's from an early script or something. My evaluation of the Scimitar's performance:

- disabled two of the Romulans' best warbirds in short order, causing massive structural damage to one

Why do you believe the Valdores must be their best ships? It looks to me like they just sent whatever they had handy, not their "best". Otherwise, they would have showed up with a larger force.

- disabled the best thing Starfleet ever fielded

True. However, it was also a very small ship compared to the Scimitar. Anything less than a curb-stomping would be quite rightly considered a terrible disaster.

- was destroyed only by internal sabotage, made possible by the commander's psychotic fixation on Picard

Not to mention the worst internal security I've seen since ... earlier in Nemesis, when the Remans boarded the Enterprise.

- suffered (from the combat) a 30% shield loss and the loss of its cloak while totally disabling three of the AQ's best warships

All three of which severely under-massed the Scimitar. There's no reason to believe that the Scimitar is better than any other warship on a pound-for-pound basis.

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2004-04-12 11:40pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Metrion Cascade wrote:Norexan is what a lot of people are calling the Romulan class seen in Nemesis (the Valdore and the other ship like it). I think it's from an early script or something. My evaluation of the Scimitar's performance:

- disabled two of the Romulans' best warbirds in short order, causing massive structural damage to one
Why do you believe the Valdores must be their best ships? It looks to me like they just sent whatever they had handy, not their "best". Otherwise, they would have showed up with a larger force.

They came all the way from Romulus. Considering that nearly every other ship we've seen from them in the TNG era was a D'Deridex, I'd say that sending anything else is a big stretch for them. Even having anything else. I'll concede that they may not outmatch the D'Deridex overall (but that's only a possibility, not a given), but they must have some advantage in order to even exist.

- disabled the best thing Starfleet ever fielded
True. However, it was also a very small ship compared to the Scimitar. Anything less than a curb-stomping would be quite rightly considered a terrible disaster.

Yeah. Shame on Starfleet for not being more serious about fielding a warship.

- was destroyed only by internal sabotage, made possible by the commander's psychotic fixation on Picard
Not to mention the worst internal security I've seen since ... earlier in Nemesis, when the Remans boarded the Enterprise.

Maybe a Romulan crew would do better?

- suffered (from the combat) a 30% shield loss and the loss of its cloak while totally disabling three of the AQ's best warships
All three of which severely under-massed the Scimitar. There's no reason to believe that the Scimitar is better than any other warship on a pound-for-pound basis.

I'm not saying pound for pound (although I'd suspect that all three ships together outmassed the Scimitar - but that's a guesstimate). I'm saying ship for ship. Regardless of the reasons, the Scimitar is superior to any other individual ship the Feds and arguably the Romulans have. Maybe a Fed ship with the mass of the Scimitar (and proportional abilities) could beat it. But Starfleet didn't build anything like that. They didn't send the E-E up against its mass in Scimitar. They sent it up against the whole thing.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2004-04-13 01:20am

Yeah. Shame on Starfleet for not being more serious about fielding a warship.

Er?

Aside from the possibility that Starfleet SIF (or warp field) technology may not be sufficiently advanced enough to allow the construction of starships as large as the Scimitar, there's the whole issue that until recently Starfleet seemed to be very badly overstretched. When you need to patrol a sector, which is better: a single, massive battleship able to tangle with nearly any other single ship around, or four smaller yet still capable cruisers? The cruisers, in this regard, are the superior choice because they can be in more places in once than the battleship can. If something too big for one cruiser to take on wanders into the sector, the cruisers can regroup and gang up on the bigger ship.

Roddenberry envisioned there only being six Galaxy class starships to begin with. The non-canon TM suggests that the Ent-D took around thirteen years to build. And even though we only saw some of the Galaxys during the run of DS9, they would still only comprise a small fraction of the entire Starfleet. I can't imagine more than a very small handful of superkilometer ships being built by the Federation... and when they're still rebuilding their fleets from the Borg and Dominion attacks, the important thing at this time would be towards the smaller ships that can patrol and secure Federation territory.

They came all the way from Romulus. Considering that nearly every other ship we've seen from them in the TNG era was a D'Deridex, I'd say that sending anything else is a big stretch for them. Even having anything else. I'll concede that they may not outmatch the D'Deridex overall (but that's only a possibility, not a given), but they must have some advantage in order to even exist.

Remember TNG "Tin Man"? The D'Deridex warbirds can't keep pace with a Galaxy class, let alone the faster Soveriegn and Scimitar classes.

I'm not saying pound for pound (although I'd suspect that all three ships together outmassed the Scimitar - but that's a guesstimate). I'm saying ship for ship. Regardless of the reasons, the Scimitar is superior to any other individual ship the Feds and arguably the Romulans have. Maybe a Fed ship with the mass of the Scimitar (and proportional abilities) could beat it. But Starfleet didn't build anything like that. They didn't send the E-E up against its mass in Scimitar. They sent it up against the whole thing.

Starfleet had no idea that the Remans had put together the Fan-wank... er, excuse me, I meant the Scimitar, nor that the Ent-E would engage it in combat.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-04-13 10:52am

The Valdore's weren't sent because they are the most powerful ship the Romulans have. They were sent because they were the only ships that could catch the Enterprise. Valdore class ships are likely Light Cruisers of a sort. Fast and fairly well armed. The D'Deridex remains the heavy hitter behind the Romulan fleet while the Valdore is their quick strike cruiser.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-04-13 11:53am

Alyeska wrote:The Valdore's weren't sent because they are the most powerful ship the Romulans have. They were sent because they were the only ships that could catch the Enterprise. Valdore class ships are likely Light Cruisers of a sort. Fast and fairly well armed. The D'Deridex remains the heavy hitter behind the Romulan fleet while the Valdore is their quick strike cruiser.

I would really love to hear some canon evidence supporting this assumption.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-04-13 12:03pm

The Kernel wrote:
Alyeska wrote:The Valdore's weren't sent because they are the most powerful ship the Romulans have. They were sent because they were the only ships that could catch the Enterprise. Valdore class ships are likely Light Cruisers of a sort. Fast and fairly well armed. The D'Deridex remains the heavy hitter behind the Romulan fleet while the Valdore is their quick strike cruiser.
I would really love to hear some canon evidence supporting this assumption.

The fact that Valdores are small and lightly built, perhaps?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-04-13 12:11pm

The Kernel wrote:
Alyeska wrote:The Valdore's weren't sent because they are the most powerful ship the Romulans have. They were sent because they were the only ships that could catch the Enterprise. Valdore class ships are likely Light Cruisers of a sort. Fast and fairly well armed. The D'Deridex remains the heavy hitter behind the Romulan fleet while the Valdore is their quick strike cruiser.
I would really love to hear some canon evidence supporting this assumption.

How about the fact that Valdore's are smaller then the D'Deridex, have shown to have less capable shields, less endurance, smaller weapons payload, and happen to be faster then the D'Deridex?

Is that enough canon evidence for you?

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-04-13 01:18pm

Alyeska wrote: How about the fact that Valdore's are smaller then the D'Deridex, have shown to have less capable shields, less endurance, smaller weapons payload, and happen to be faster then the D'Deridex?

Is that enough canon evidence for you?

It's a good line of reasoning, but the way you stated it (as fact, as though there was no other possible explanation) led me to believe you had some other source besides supposition. I was simply curious if there was more information on the matter that I was not aware of.

In any case, I don't really see how we know that the Valdores are less heavily armed/shielded then the D'Deridex-class Warbirds. We didn't get to see much of the Warbirds in straight combat in TNG or DS9 (The Die is Cast, while probably the best example, didn't give us much), and their performance in Voyager was distinctly subpar (IIRC one of them blew up rather quickly during a fight in "Message in a Bottle" against what was hardly a large Starfleet force).

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-04-13 01:24pm

Darth Wong wrote: The fact that Valdores are small and lightly built, perhaps?

Lightly built compared to the Vorcha-class Klingon cruisers which explode due to a love tap by Jem'Haddar beetle fighters while being fully shielded and untouched otherwise? And these are top end Klingon warships we're talking about here.

I'd say the Valdores are pretty decent considering their size and even though the Warbirds are much bigger, they are largely hollow and an older design.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-04-13 01:27pm

The Kernel wrote:
Alyeska wrote: How about the fact that Valdore's are smaller then the D'Deridex, have shown to have less capable shields, less endurance, smaller weapons payload, and happen to be faster then the D'Deridex?

Is that enough canon evidence for you?
It's a good line of reasoning, but the way you stated it (as fact, as though there was no other possible explanation) led me to believe you had some other source besides supposition. I was simply curious if there was more information on the matter that I was not aware of.

In any case, I don't really see how we know that the Valdores are less heavily armed/shielded then the D'Deridex-class Warbirds. We didn't get to see much of the Warbirds in straight combat in TNG or DS9 (The Die is Cast, while probably the best example, didn't give us much), and their performance in Voyager was distinctly subpar (IIRC one of them blew up rather quickly during a fight in "Message in a Bottle" against what was hardly a large Starfleet force).

Warbirds have shown themselves to be powerful ships comparable to a GCS but with better forward firepower. The Valdore showed itself to have far less shielding them the Enterprise-E and didn't even posess near the same amount of firepower. A D'Deridex should have relatively equal forward firepower to a Sovereign.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-04-13 01:33pm

Alyeska wrote: Warbirds have shown themselves to be powerful ships comparable to a GCS but with better forward firepower. The Valdore showed itself to have far less shielding them the Enterprise-E and didn't even posess near the same amount of firepower. A D'Deridex should have relatively equal forward firepower to a Sovereign.

Where exactly did we see this level of firepower? I pulled the images from Voyager's "Message in a Bottle" and counted two Defiant-class ships, one Akira-class and the Prometheus against three Romulan D'Deridex-class Warbirds and in the rather short battle, one Warbird was destroyed and the others retreated.

That means that against one light cruiser, two gunboats (best description I can think of) and an experimental yet light tonnage starfleet vessel, three top end Romulan warships were fought into submission. Do you think that three Soverigns would have lost this battle?

EDIT: Oh, and I think if you are pulling firepower numbers for a Warbird vs. a GCS from TNG, that might not hold up too well. We know that the GCS's were refitted after all during the Dominion War, and I would assume that the Soverign's have even more firepower then that. If the Warbirds were only equal to a TNG GCS, then they might be decidedly inferior to the war refit GCS's.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-04-13 01:43pm

Another thought occurs as well. The reason the Valdore's were taken might not necessarily be because they were the fastest thing availible, but perhaps the only thing availible. Consider that Shinzon was planning to completely destroy Earth with the Scimitar. Well now, once this occured, Starfleet would obviously be out for blood, and assuming they discovered that the Romulans were responsible, the first thing they would do would be to send the fleet (which would be largely untouched from the attack on Earth) to crush the Romulans. Thus, Shinzon might very well have deployed his forces along the border in wait of the eventual Federation reprisal.

Thus, perhaps the Valdore's were the only thing availible on Romulus to intercept Shinzon.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-04-13 01:52pm

Actually, IIRC it comes from The Defector, where the Enterprise is confronted by two D'deridexes, which fire short busts at it for about a second, and Picard claims that they're not serious about attacking the Enterprise, because after a few seconds of combat with two warbirds, they 'wouldn't be there to talk about it.'

Script except incoming...

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2004-04-13 01:53pm

You call a ship with like 15 torpedo launchers and a possible carrier ability, a light cruiser?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-04-13 02:01pm

WORF
Three Romulan warships
uncloaking... coordinates...
(no time for that)
They're firing photon torpedoes...

75 EXT. SPACE - THE ENTERPRISE (OPTICAL)

The Enterprise is struck by the torpedoes from all
three ships....

76 INT. MAIN BRIDGE

Shaking from the impact...

WORF
Shields holding...

RIKER
Damage...

GEORDI'S COM VOICE
Minor damage in the secondary
hull... power transfer fields may
be pinched off... working on it...

More hits rock them...

WORF
Captain... ?

STAR TREK: "The Defector" - REV. 10/18/89 - ACT FIVE 55.

76 CONTINUED:

PICARD
Not yet, Mister Worf.
(beat)
This is just a tap on the
shoulder. Or we wouldn't be here
talking about it.

And we may wonder for the moment what that is about...
then the assault ends and...

My mistake, three warbirds. However, the assault was a mere few seconds in duration, and the Enterprise's shields were battered down, and they were holding back... That's more impressive than the preformance of the borg cube in Q-Who for example.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-04-13 02:04pm

Aya wrote:You call a ship with like 15 torpedo launchers and a possible carrier ability, a light cruiser?

An Akira-class has fifteen torpedo launchers and carrier abilities? May I ask for the episode reference?

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-04-13 02:07pm

NecronLord wrote: My mistake, three warbirds. However, the assault was a mere few seconds in duration, and the Enterprise's shields were battered down, and they were holding back... That's more impressive than the preformance of the borg cube in Q-Who for example.

I don't see any evidence that the shields were knocked down. It's not like we haven't seen damage sustained while the shields were still up on Starfleet ships.

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2004-04-13 02:24pm

The Kernel wrote:
Aya wrote:You call a ship with like 15 torpedo launchers and a possible carrier ability, a light cruiser?
An Akira-class has fifteen torpedo launchers and carrier abilities? May I ask for the episode reference?

Ask Aly about the torpedos, I've seen him refer to it. The carrier ability is only a possibility. The Akira has launch doors on the fore and aft of the saucer. Plus, the guy who designed the Akira said in an interview that the Akira could act as a carrier. Of course, that interview is non canon and there's a slight problem with the doors; they're not big enough for a peregrine to fit through.

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2004-04-13 03:34pm

Uraniun235 wrote:
Yeah. Shame on Starfleet for not being more serious about fielding a warship.
Er?

Aside from the possibility that Starfleet SIF (or warp field) technology may not be sufficiently advanced enough to allow the construction of starships as large as the Scimitar, there's the whole issue that until recently Starfleet seemed to be very badly overstretched. When you need to patrol a sector, which is better: a single, massive battleship able to tangle with nearly any other single ship around, or four smaller yet still capable cruisers? The cruisers, in this regard, are the superior choice because they can be in more places in once than the battleship can. If something too big for one cruiser to take on wanders into the sector, the cruisers can regroup and gang up on the bigger ship.

Roddenberry envisioned there only being six Galaxy class starships to begin with. The non-canon TM suggests that the Ent-D took around thirteen years to build. And even though we only saw some of the Galaxys during the run of DS9, they would still only comprise a small fraction of the entire Starfleet. I can't imagine more than a very small handful of superkilometer ships being built by the Federation... and when they're still rebuilding their fleets from the Borg and Dominion attacks, the important thing at this time would be towards the smaller ships that can patrol and secure Federation territory.
They came all the way from Romulus. Considering that nearly every other ship we've seen from them in the TNG era was a D'Deridex, I'd say that sending anything else is a big stretch for them. Even having anything else. I'll concede that they may not outmatch the D'Deridex overall (but that's only a possibility, not a given), but they must have some advantage in order to even exist.
Remember TNG "Tin Man"? The D'Deridex warbirds can't keep pace with a Galaxy class, let alone the faster Soveriegn and Scimitar classes.

True. But there's no reason they'd have to build an entirely new ship to make up that difference. The engines on a D'Deridex could have been refitted to make up such a small difference. And the Norexan class isn't that much smaller than the Sovereign or a Vor'cha. If it's just built for speed, it should be smaller like a Defiant or Intrepid. The single advantage of speed isn't enough to justify building a capital ship. And if they knew the Norexan class wasn't as strong as the D'Deridex, why didn't they send more ships? Without canon evidence of the Romulan fleet being more spread out than usual (especially considering Shinzon expected the Scimitar to end the war before it started), or that such spreading out wouldn't include some ships being near the Bassen rift (clearly a very strategic point along the border and along the shortest course from Romulus to Earth, if the Federation task force was on the other side waiting for a cloaked ship), I'll assume that for one reason or another Donatra expected two Valdores to do better than two D'Deridexes. Not to mention - we don't know that the E-E was traveling at maximum warp. The distance may have been such that the had to drop to maximum cruise by the time they got to the rift. That doesn't help a D'Deridex at Romulus catch up with them, but it does help a D'Deridex that's closer to the rift than the point at which they decreased speed.

I'm not saying pound for pound (although I'd suspect that all three ships together outmassed the Scimitar - but that's a guesstimate). I'm saying ship for ship. Regardless of the reasons, the Scimitar is superior to any other individual ship the Feds and arguably the Romulans have. Maybe a Fed ship with the mass of the Scimitar (and proportional abilities) could beat it. But Starfleet didn't build anything like that. They didn't send the E-E up against its mass in Scimitar. They sent it up against the whole thing.
Starfleet had no idea that the Remans had put together the Fan-wank... er, excuse me, I meant the Scimitar, nor that the Ent-E would engage it in combat.

The reasons that Starfleet doesn't have anything on par with the Scimitar don't change the fact that they don't. Regardless of why, there is no Federation class on par with the Scimitar. That it's an unfair comparison is no more relevant here than in a debate about whether a GCS could beat an ISD. Standing on the bridge of the E-D whining, "but you're older and bigger" won't decrease the firepower of an ISD's turbolasers, or increase the E-D's shield strength.

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2004-04-13 03:37pm

Darth Wong wrote:
The Kernel wrote:
Alyeska wrote:The Valdore's weren't sent because they are the most powerful ship the Romulans have. They were sent because they were the only ships that could catch the Enterprise. Valdore class ships are likely Light Cruisers of a sort. Fast and fairly well armed. The D'Deridex remains the heavy hitter behind the Romulan fleet while the Valdore is their quick strike cruiser.
I would really love to hear some canon evidence supporting this assumption.
The fact that Valdores are small and lightly built, perhaps?

Compared to Star Destroyers, maybe. Not compared to most AQ ships, and not compared to the D-Deridex (a structural joke even pound for pound).

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2004-04-13 03:39pm

NecronLord wrote:<snip>

My mistake, three warbirds. However, the assault was a mere few seconds in duration, and the Enterprise's shields were battered down, and they were holding back... That's more impressive than the preformance of the borg cube in Q-Who for example.

We don't know that the shields were "battered down" or that Picard's hyperbole represented an accurate understanding of the D'Deridex's firepower. What examples of D'Deridex firepower had Starfleet seen before this incident? None, IIRC.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-04-13 04:10pm

Metrion Cascade wrote:
NecronLord wrote:<snip>

My mistake, three warbirds. However, the assault was a mere few seconds in duration, and the Enterprise's shields were battered down, and they were holding back... That's more impressive than the preformance of the borg cube in Q-Who for example.
We don't know that the shields were "battered down" or that Picard's hyperbole represented an accurate understanding of the D'Deridex's firepower. What examples of D'Deridex firepower had Starfleet seen before this incident? None, IIRC.

Wasn't there a decent demonstration of D'Deridex firepower in the TNG episode "Tin Man"? I haven't seen this particular episode, but I've heard some information to that effect. Not that it makes a great deal of difference since we don't know to what degree the GCS's were upgraded during the Dominion War, nor do we know the firepower gap between a GCS and a Soverign.

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2004-04-13 04:15pm

The Kernel wrote:
Metrion Cascade wrote:
NecronLord wrote:<snip>

My mistake, three warbirds. However, the assault was a mere few seconds in duration, and the Enterprise's shields were battered down, and they were holding back... That's more impressive than the preformance of the borg cube in Q-Who for example.
We don't know that the shields were "battered down" or that Picard's hyperbole represented an accurate understanding of the D'Deridex's firepower. What examples of D'Deridex firepower had Starfleet seen before this incident? None, IIRC.
Wasn't there a decent demonstration of D'Deridex firepower in the TNG episode "Tin Man"? I haven't seen this particular episode, but I've heard some information to that effect. Not that it makes a great deal of difference since we don't know to what degree the GCS's were upgraded during the Dominion War, nor do we know the firepower gap between a GCS and a Soverign.

I don't remember any D'Deridex weapons fire in "Tin Man."

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-04-13 04:20pm

Aya wrote:
The Kernel wrote:
Aya wrote:You call a ship with like 15 torpedo launchers and a possible carrier ability, a light cruiser?
An Akira-class has fifteen torpedo launchers and carrier abilities? May I ask for the episode reference?
Ask Aly about the torpedos, I've seen him refer to it. The carrier ability is only a possibility. The Akira has launch doors on the fore and aft of the saucer. Plus, the guy who designed the Akira said in an interview that the Akira could act as a carrier. Of course, that interview is non canon and there's a slight problem with the doors; they're not big enough for a peregrine to fit through.

The Akira class has 11 forward torpedo launchers, 2 starboard, 2 port. These are on the actual CG model.

http://www.lcarscom.net/fsd/art/akira.html

This page details the information.