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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

Starglider wrote:

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:I really, really, want Dis to burn like Hamburg, Dresden, and Tokyo, for the record. Let's show them what we can do without nukes.

Is that necessary to achieve victory? As previously noted, Dis isn't vital to sustaining the demon armies in the field. Demonstrating the capability to destroy it is one thing, that's a motivation to surrender, but actually destroying it just motivates the remaining demons to fight to the death.

Dis is huge. One firebombing raid won't destroy the largest city ever known to exist. Just a small segment of it, kill a hundred thousand or so. The Demons will however have to realize that we can keep up such raids, they can't stop them, end result, if they continue to fight, Dis WILL be destroyed. I think that knowledge would actually help break their will to resist.

Wouldn't the defeat of the largest army Hell has ever assembled outside the walls of Dis also break their will to fight ?
Especially if the humans make a visible effort to spare non-combatants.

Though the firebombing raids might make that defeat easier, if the demon army learns of it.

I was just thinking of the issue of air defence against harpies. Since they may not give off a great IR signiture I wonder how effective MANPAD missiles like the Stinger might be? Laser guided weapons like the Starstreak and RBS-70 might be more effective in this role.

Lots of LAA and HMGs might also be effective.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Dis is huge. One firebombing raid won't destroy the largest city ever known to exist. Just a small segment of it, kill a hundred thousand or so. The Demons will however have to realize that we can keep up such raids, they can't stop them, end result, if they continue to fight, Dis WILL be destroyed. I think that knowledge would actually help break their will to resist.

Granted. The humans will need to combine that with propaganda though. Communications through the demon population are so limited and so subject to state control that if you want to make individual units more likely to desert (as opposed to just intimidating Satan) you'll need the equivalent of WWII leaflet drops and propaganda broadcasts.

You know if I was living through this conflict, I think I'd rather see WWII stirring propaganda broadcasts than modern-style 'embedded reporters' and hostile press conferences. Somehow it fits better with the spirit of a fight for survival and liberation of humanity.

You know if I was living through this conflict, I think I'd rather see WWII stirring propaganda broadcasts than modern-style 'embedded reporters' and hostile press conferences. Somehow it fits better with the spirit of a fight for survival and liberation of humanity.

Maybe we should do what we did in WW2, put the reporters into military uniform and under military discipline. There were for example correspondents that took part in the first wave of the Normandy landings.
I would argue that maybe they were embeds.

JN1 wrote:I was just thinking of the issue of air defence against harpies. Since they may not give off a great IR signiture I wonder how effective MANPAD missiles like the Stinger might be? Laser guided weapons like the Starstreak and RBS-70 might be more effective in this role.

Lots of LAA and HMGs might also be effective.

It seems to me that old-fashioned anti-aircraft guns are the way to go. These harpies are present in huge quantity, and they're not high enough or fast enough to require big fancy SAMs.

Well, I wasn't really thinking of Rapier, Patriot, et al, just the issue of whether those armies equipped with IR MANPADs might think of modifying them, or replacing them with AAA, or laser guided weapons.

I would think that something like the L70 might be good (I wonder if the RAF still has its Skyguard/Oerlikon 35mm guns?). There was a proposed version of the Abrams, called the M1/AGDS, which had twin 35mm. It might be worth a look.

What would be really quite something is if they settled on a single gun caliber that was perfect for both anti-infantry Baldrick and anti-Harpy work - somewhere around 50mm? - and set that up in a turret that was suitable for engaging both land and air targets.

Convenient, seeing as Bushmaster III is totally capable of 50mm


Edit: Hey, with 2 gun barrels and 2 6-pack missile launchers on the sides... that M1 AGS looks an awful lot like a Mammoth Tank

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Dis is huge. One firebombing raid won't destroy the largest city ever known to exist.

It's also linear. Well, it's a ring, but at that scale it's essentially linear. It may not have the local mass of fuel necessary to create a firestorm. It will burn merrily, though. Stone buildings often have wooden roofs and floors. They have contents. Unless everything in Hell is mede of stone or metal, there should be enough combustibles to burn out a building. Depending on the density, and I'm betrting on dense and chaotic, the fires should propagate from building to building.

CaptainChewbacca wrote: Naturally-occurring sulfur usually appears with metals or metalloids, like zinc, lead, mercury, antium, and barium. Some of those could give you bright flames.

Bright flames or pretty colors.

The way Yuku ignited his bag of rocks, by initiating an igniter and dropping the rocks, speaks to me of pyrotechnics. The igniter, at least, has some chemistry to it.

I bet you could drop a thermite grenade into a bag of sulfur rocks and not get a decent fire. The speed with which the load lit up, makes me think the rocks are pyrotechnic.

What's the bomb load of a wyvvern? Can't be much over a couple of tons. It was four baskets.

Might as well drag in Russian Tu-95s, Tu-22M3s and Tu-160s, as well as Chinese H-6 bombers. That would probably allow us to at least double the tonnage being dropped on Dis (or we could just maintain an around the clock carpet bombing operation, though that sounds less effective, both for psychological and logistical reasons).

With all of this air traffic through a single portal and so many countries involved, you have to wonder if some sort of disastrous mid-air collision at the portal is going to happen. Especially since you can't actually see through it, so you don't know if the sky is clear on the other side until the moment of truth.

I'll chime in with my $0.02, and declare my admiration for this story and its writers. I just recently became aware of it, and am now fully up to date. And I need more.

Darth Wong wrote:With all of this air traffic through a single portal and so many countries involved, you have to wonder if some sort of disastrous mid-air collision at the portal is going to happen. Especially since you can't actually see through it, so you don't know if the sky is clear on the other side until the moment of truth.

Given the traditional Russian attitude to air traffic control ('we'll obey it if we feel like it' - though apparently they've had to smarten up post 9/11) I find that entirely plausible.

Personally, I have to imagine that the moment you fly through a giant black portal is a real sphincter-clenching moment.

Darth Wong wrote:Personally, I have to imagine that the moment you fly through a giant black portal is a real sphincter-clenching moment.

The way its set up is there's an air traffic control center both sides, the two being linked by fiber-optics cable. An aircraft needs permission to fly through the portal. Normally, aircraft land one side or the other and are towed through. However, this is an emergency. The B-52s were flown through and EVERYTHING got out of their way.

Yes, I think the pucker factor before making an airborne transit must be at least 9.5, possibly reaching 9.6.

On the sulfur, my guess is that the brimstone is soaked with a flammable liquid so that it burns when ignited. Sulfur dioxide is very ineffective against modern troops but it would be pretty devastating against the sort of troops found in the bronze age.

The AA missile point is a very good one; one of the problems humans have is a lot of their equipment is too good; they can hit hard targets but not enough of them.

Stuart wrote:
On the sulfur, my guess is that the brimstone is soaked with a flammable liquid so that it burns when ignited. Sulfur dioxide is very ineffective against modern troops but it would be pretty devastating against the sort of troops found in the bronze age.

Well, there are certainly naturally occurring tars and napthas. Greek Fire was almost certainly a mixture of them.

Having generated SO2 in the basement, I can testify to its effectiveness against unprotected personnel. It's more damaging to the lungs than Cl and it smells worse. Cl will kill you, but SO2 will tell you it's killing you, first. It sure clears out your sinuses.

I note that here, as well as in Winter Warriors, we used WP as an anti personnel weapon, only when we were really pissed off. It's horrible stuff, but standard HE is still better value for money when it comes to simply killing people. But the nastiness of WO really sets it apart. {Rubbing hands and cackling maniacally}

Starglider wrote:Given the traditional Russian attitude to air traffic control ('we'll obey it if we feel like it' - though apparently they've had to smarten up post 9/11) I find that entirely plausible.

I thought that was the Israeli attitude?

I thought that was the Israeli (and Taiwanese) attitude towards motor courtesy.

Couldn't one also modify cargo and transport aircraft to become bombers?

At least for deploying very heavy munitions like the MOAB?

KlavoHunter wrote:What would be really quite something is if they settled on a single gun caliber that was perfect for both anti-infantry Baldrick and anti-Harpy work - somewhere around 50mm? - and set that up in a turret that was suitable for engaging both land and air targets.

Convenient, seeing as Bushmaster III is totally capable of 50mm ;)


Edit: Hey, with 2 gun barrels and 2 6-pack missile launchers on the sides... that M1 AGS looks an awful lot like a Mammoth Tank :twisted:

Are you serious about the technical capacity existing to fit the AGDS with twin 50mm cannon with minimal modification?

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:

KlavoHunter wrote:What would be really quite something is if they settled on a single gun caliber that was perfect for both anti-infantry Baldrick and anti-Harpy work - somewhere around 50mm? - and set that up in a turret that was suitable for engaging both land and air targets.

Convenient, seeing as Bushmaster III is totally capable of 50mm


Edit: Hey, with 2 gun barrels and 2 6-pack missile launchers on the sides... that M1 AGS looks an awful lot like a Mammoth Tank

Are you serious about the technical capacity existing to fit the AGDS with twin 50mm cannon with minimal modification?

Whilst guidance and sensors could be common to 35 mm and 50 mm versions, the upgrade, in my humble opinion, would not be minimal and I would suggest, in any event, of little eventual utility, notwithstanding that we are talking about an experimental vehicle and so not likely to be produced in the Armageddon!!! world.

The calibre of the 50 mm guns is some 42% or so greater than that of the 35 mm guns. Therefore:

- wider turret apperture for guns to "poke" through;
- heavier barrels and workings requiring stronger mounts and more powerful motors for elevation and azimuth;
- more powerful motors to run the Bushmasters with the heavier projectiles ( Bushmasters are electrically driven ); and
- larger and beefier ammunition feed arrangements probably also requiring different ammo storage arrangements ( reduced ammo is only really a "modification" if effort has to go into changing how the thing is used ).

One is probably better considering a single gun version with the Bofors 57 mm if the 50 mm Bushmaster is considered worthy in twin application.

Given the discussion as to the problems with, for instance IR MANPADS, automatic cannon seem the obvious base-line solution with modern guidance, rate of fire and dual use but much cheaper.

I was expressing disbelief, more or less, so I'm quite aware of the problems, though thanks for the succinct summation. Klavo is sometimes a hair enthusiastic.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Are you serious about the technical capacity existing to fit the AGDS with twin 50mm cannon with minimal modification?

The calibre of the 50 mm guns is some 42% or so greater than that of the 35 mm guns. Therefore:

- wider turret apperture for guns to "poke" through;
- heavier barrels and workings requiring stronger mounts and more powerful motors for elevation and azimuth;
- more powerful motors to run the Bushmasters with the heavier projectiles ( Bushmasters are electrically driven ); and
- larger and beefier ammunition feed arrangements probably also requiring different ammo storage arrangements ( reduced ammo is only really a "modification" if effort has to go into changing how the thing is used ).

The Bushmaster III is designed to be converted to 50mm with just a barrel change (and presumably a few parts of the action and whatnot). It is explicitly stated to be so.

I was not, however, going to suggest dual 50mm - a single 50mm weapon would suffice.

And I agree on upgunning to the Bofors 57mm - it's more of a dedicated anti-aircraft weapon than the Bushmaster autocannons are, aren't they?

But of course, such a vehicle would take time to put into production, much less the rest of the procurement process, and would be complete probably well after the Salvation War was over. At least on the Hell front, most certainly.


Were I in charge of designing a 'perfect' vehicle for engaging Baldricks, something like that would be close. Of course, 'perfect' is the worst enemy of 'good enough'.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:I was expressing disbelief, more or less, so I'm quite aware of the problems, though thanks for the succinct summation. Klavo is sometimes a hair enthusiastic.

LOL I have no doubt you are aware of the problems! I had, however, been recently thinking about dual use automatic cannon. After all, it is not a new idea.

KlavoHunter wrote:

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Are you serious about the technical capacity existing to fit the AGDS with twin 50mm cannon with minimal modification?

The calibre of the 50 mm guns is some 42% or so greater than that of the 35 mm guns. Therefore:

- wider turret apperture for guns to "poke" through;
- heavier barrels and workings requiring stronger mounts and more powerful motors for elevation and azimuth;
- more powerful motors to run the Bushmasters with the heavier projectiles ( Bushmasters are electrically driven ); and
- larger and beefier ammunition feed arrangements probably also requiring different ammo storage arrangements ( reduced ammo is only really a "modification" if effort has to go into changing how the thing is used ).

The Bushmaster III is designed to be converted to 50mm with just a barrel change (and presumably a few parts of the action and whatnot). It is explicitly stated to be so.

I was not, however, going to suggest dual 50mm - a single 50mm weapon would suffice.

And I agree on upgunning to the Bofors 57mm - it's more of a dedicated anti-aircraft weapon than the Bushmaster autocannons are, aren't they?

But of course, such a vehicle would take time to put into production, much less the rest of the procurement process, and would be complete probably well after the Salvation War was over. At least on the Hell front, most certainly.


Were I in charge of designing a 'perfect' vehicle for engaging Baldricks, something like that would be close. Of course, 'perfect' is the worst enemy of 'good enough'.

That is the problem. With sufficient warning these would have been priority items for production. M1s for big hitting and this vehicle for general purpose demon killing.

Why would they need 50mm cannons? 20mm should be more than adequate for a general-purpose baldrick-killing machine, and with the smaller shells, you can bring more ammo.