The Hunted (nBSG)

[Borgholio]

Well the Sulaco on her own managed to shut down a whole basestar. I figure the full-blown warships of the Earth fleet will be able to shut down a good deal more. Then of course, the Earth fleet will likely have a sizable number of anti-ship nukes...

[MondoMage]

Well the Sulaco on her own managed to shut down a whole basestar. I figure the full-blown warships of the Earth fleet will be able to shut down a good deal more. Then of course, the Earth fleet will likely have a sizable number of anti-ship nukes...

True, but if the reaction of the Marines to what the Guardians threw at the Anubis is any indication, the Cylons tend to field a hell of a lot more fighters than Terran ships do. And the Guardians don't seem to be averse to kamikaze attacks which, while not exactly the most efficient way to utilize one's air power, tends to be rather difficult to defend against unless you have a hellacious amount of point-defense on your side. That combination is going to cost the Terrans dearly.

That said, we haven't seen what a dedicated Terran warship is capable of yet. Their armor and weapons are bound to be quite a bit better than Sulaco fielded. It all depends on what the Terran designers' definition of overkill happens to be.

If I were a betting man, I think the Terran's energy weapons are going to be the ace that decides the battle, but they themselves are going to take a horrendous shellacking in the process.

[Diverball]

True, but if the reaction of the Marines to what the Guardians threw at the Anubis is any indication, the Cylons tend to field a hell of a lot more fighters than Terran ships do. And the Guardians don't seem to be averse to kamikaze attacks which, while not exactly the most efficient way to utilize one's air power, tends to be rather difficult to defend against unless you have a hellacious amount of point-defense on your side. .

But indications are that the Terrans do. The Sulacco alone took down 43 raiders in 14 seconds using her PD lasers. Granted, the raiders were coming in dumb at the time, but that's still pretty damn impressive for a glorified troopship.

Additionally, if you have to deal with opponents possessed of advanced energy weapons, you would have a powerful incentive to put some serious thought into exotic ways of defeating them. Some sort of enveloping plasma sheath is not outside the realms of possibility....

[MondoMage]

And the Guardians don't seem to be averse to kamikaze attacks which, while not exactly the most efficient way to utilize one's air power, tends to be rather difficult to defend against unless you have a hellacious amount of point-defense on your side. .

But indications are that the Terrans do. The Sulacco alone took down 43 raiders in 14 seconds using her PD lasers. Granted, the raiders were coming in dumb at the time, but that's still pretty damn impressive for a glorified troopship.

Very true. But now they're facing... um... 18 basestars? (Memory failure, sorry). At 300+ raiders per, you're looking at a potential wave of over 5400 Raiders. I don't care how impressive your point defense is, someone's going to get through. Especially if they go smart about it and concentrate on one or two ships. Sgt Murphy is a real jerk in that regard.

Additionally, if you have to deal with opponents possessed of advanced energy weapons, you would have a powerful incentive to put some serious thought into exotic ways of defeating them. Some sort of enveloping plasma sheath is not outside the realms of possibility....

The question is, would a defense that works well against energy-based weapons have any effect on projectiles or missiles? Magnetic fields may shunt ionized particles and such (stretching here, been I while since I cracked open a physics book), but would it have an effect on a high-velocity kinetic round? It may deflect the direction a bit, but maybe not enough to count on a well-aimed shot. Kinda grabbing straws here, actually. We won't really know until MA gets to that.

However it turns out to be, tho, I'm fairly confident that it's going to be awesome.

[Borgholio]

We're assuming the Guardians act rationally. Remember how smug and arrogant they are? They probably are just going to charge right in..lose half their raiders to the Earth point defense and lose a large number to the Colonials as well...then have half of the base-ships immobilized by the particle weapons...they're gonna get hurt.

[MondoMage]

We're assuming the Guardians act rationally. Remember how smug and arrogant they are?

Very true. Arrogance and overconfidence have been the downfall of many a military operation throughout history. That might be the one major deciding factor in the whole of the upcoming battle.

Problem with that is, if they don't absolutely annihilate the Guardians, they're going to learn from this battle (win or lose), and they're going to be that much more difficult to defeat the next time around. From references made in-story, it sounds like they can replace losses and adjust their vessels to match the threat much quicker than the human forces (Earth or Colonial) can. Decisiveness on the human side will give them victory. However, Corporations tend not to be very decisive most times, since decisive also tends to be synonymous with risky... a term most Corporations tends to shy away from.

[Borgholio]

Well despite the political power the corporation have, it still seems to me the Earth military commanders will do as they please when there's an actual threat to nearly 300 million colonists. I don't expect them to listen if the corporate representatives throw a hissy fit over how much ordinance they're expending.

[MondoMage]

Well despite the political power the corporation have, it still seems to me the Earth military commanders will do as they please when there's an actual threat to nearly 300 million colonists. I don't expect them to listen if the corporate representatives throw a hissy fit over how much ordinance they're expending.

I was thinking more of delays on a strategic level, than a tactical one. I'm certain that the military has quite a bit of leeway when it comes to actually fighting conflicts and such (like how Hicks was able to overrule Burke regarding nuking the site on Acheron). But I get the feeling the Corporations can induce delays when they feel like it, be it ordinance or fuel or some other logistical angle... all quite legally, of course. And those delays can cost the Terrans dearly, unless someone (like, say, the ICC) give the Corporations a kick in the teeth. And it does seem like our dear ICC Representative is quite willing and able to do just that.

[Diverball]

Double post

[Diverball]

Very true. But now they're facing... um... 18 basestars? (Memory failure, sorry). At 300+ raiders per, you're looking at a potential wave of over 5400 Raiders. I don't care how impressive your point defense is, someone's going to get through. Especially if they go smart about it and concentrate on one or two ships. Sgt Murphy is a real jerk in that regard.

5,400+ raiders is also the very definition of "target-rich environment". If they're dumb enough to leave the cover of the base stars and attack en-masse along on one or even several vectors, I'd be inclined to break out the nukes. You can't really justify using nukes against fighters in most scenarios, but in this case....

The question is, would a defense that works well against energy-based weapons have any effect on projectiles or missiles? Magnetic fields may shunt ionized particles and such (stretching here, been I while since I cracked open a physics book), but would it have an effect on a high-velocity kinetic round? It may deflect the direction a bit, but maybe not enough to count on a well-aimed shot. Kinda grabbing straws here, actually. We won't really know until MA gets to that.

However it turns out to be, tho, I'm fairly confident that it's going to be awesome.

It probably wouldn't affect kinetic projectiles, though it might potentially fuse missile warheads prematurely. It could also potentially confuse DRADIS. But yes, it is little more than speculation. I was just intrigued by the "artificial nebula" idea in Red Banner/White Star.

We can only await developments with baited breath...

[MondoMage]

Very true. But now they're facing... um... 18 basestars? (Memory failure, sorry). At 300+ raiders per, you're looking at a potential wave of over 5400 Raiders. I don't care how impressive your point defense is, someone's going to get through. Especially if they go smart about it and concentrate on one or two ships. Sgt Murphy is a real jerk in that regard.

5,400+ raiders is also the very definition of "target-rich environment". If they're dumb enough to leave the cover of the base stars and attack en-masse along on one or even several vectors, I'd be inclined to break out the nukes. You can't really justify using nukes against fighters in most scenarios, but in this case....

I couldn't justify nukes in this case, either. Unless said nuke is in direct contact with a target (say, a Battlestar), a deep-space detonation is quite a bit less dramatic than an atmospheric one (Ever see the movie "Trinity and Beyond"? I highly recommend it, if you don't mind that disquieting "We can do that?" feeling that comes along with it). The destructive radius tends to be quite a bit smaller. No EMP to speak of, as that tends to be a result of interaction with the atmosphere and planetary magnetic fields (but does make me wonder... would the artificial gravity on a ship react similarly?). No atmosphere to conduct the shock waves. That leaves a not-insignificant thermal pulse, and the burst of radiations from the reaction. Radiation is prevalent in outer space, so the Cylons will be shielded against it (at least to some degree). The thermal pulse will probably be the most destructive aspect of a nuke deployed against a mass of fighters in deep space... and then, only if they're nice enough to stay bunched up. Not enough return on the investment to justify trying to nuke them. Not that, as a last-ditch effort, it wouldn't be tried. But for a military commander, it would initially be dismissed as a waste of (expensive) ordinance. I'd rather use whatever nukes I had on hand on the 18 BaseStars. Capital ships are expensive and take quite a lot of resources and time to replace. Much better bang for the buck.

I think that Terran forces have never experienced (in "recent" terms, that is) a massed fighter assault like the one they're about to come face-to-chrome helmet with. Why would Gorman and the others have been so surprised at the Colonial's use of dual-purpose kinetic weapons ("You can shoot flak out of those things, too?") - they've not had the need to do so before, since Terran fighter doctrine doesn't rely on such large masses of fighters. Colonial doctrine, forged in the fires of the First Cylon War, adopts massive amounts of defensive flak as a matter of course. From what I've seen in the show, it appears that Colonial fighters are more like the cavalry of old - used to probe defenses and keep the other guy's fighters occupied until the big guns can pound an opening in the enemy's defenses, then rush into the breach and wreak havoc wherever they can. Cylons... well, if there's not a Gold-plated toaster in the background hollering "Banzai!" I'd be disappointed.

Man, I'm getting itchy for an update. I needs my fix!

[Diverball]

Oh, granted, nukes are generally useless for "depth-charging" in space, for all the reasons you've mentioned, but the thing is, from everything that we've seen on the show, Cylon fighters do tend to stay bunched up, to quite an alarming degree, even on attack runs, but especially on approach, presumably so that they can exploit their greater numbers to compensate for their individual inferiority as pilots. You could argue that tendency is precisely what battlestar flak guns are built to exploit.

Nuking fighters shouldn't work, but this is one situation where, just this once, it might.

As for Colonial tactics, the other explanations are that the Battlestar is there to provide support to fighters that would otherwise be hopelessly outnumbered, or that they were designed to act as mobile defence platforms, since the Colonials had no choice but to hold a line if ever the colony worlds were directly threatened. It's probably a mixture of all three.

[Shawn]

Just a thought regarding the Constellation's strike group, if the Terran PD lasers are so damn effective, then a Kitty Hawk class carrier wing of 70 or so attack craft should be meat on the table for a true warship's anti-fighter energy weapons. That leads me to believe that:

1.) The Terran craft are no more than suicide sleds (doubtful).
2.) They carry stand off weapons and don't venture into the anti-fighter weapons' envelope.
3.) They carry one heck of an ECM suite or have dedicated jammers.
4.) They have gone down the A-10 Warthog design route of "sure you're going to get hit, we'll just build them to be able to withstand a ton of punishment".

[Borgholio]

In points 2 - 4, that makes them superior to possibily even the Colonial Vipers.

[Themightytom]

In points 2 - 4, that makes them superior to possibily even the Colonial Vipers.

Well the Vipers get their ECM from Raptors don't they? And they CAN mount stand off weapons, they just don't because they don't have very many that wouldn't be shot down by the raiders. if Earth had long distance energy weapons, I don't see that being a problem for them because the Cylons wouldn't have anything to stop them. We saw the scrambler weapon in action, but it wasn't 100 % effective, I feel like the Cylons could figure out how to deal with that, or just spam retarded amounts of fighters towards the Earth fighters. If nothing else they can make an FTL jump into the midst of an earth formation. Vipers are ridiculously nimble, if a raider tried that the vipers would be confused but not screwed.

The thunders are probably stronger in points 2 to four, assuming they are armed effectively, the Scorpio dismantled some of her warheads to ensure this, but if W-T sold them some other ordinance they might not be so bad off.

[Diverball]

If Terran PD is that effective then stand-off weapons aren't going to have an easy time of it either, unless they're either fired in colossal numbers, or are stealthed. Although, I suppose you conceivably use a nuclear-pumped x-ray laser as a warhead. Then you wouldn't have to get close.

Would ECM be effective at such a short range to target?

It seems to me that between their directed-energy weapons and their slow FTL, Terran engagement ranges would be much greater than those of the Colonials or Cylons. Hence, they would have a radically different doctrine for the use of strike craft.

[Shawn]

It seems to me that between their directed-energy weapons and their slow FTL, Terran engagement ranges would be much greater than those of the Colonials or Cylons. Hence, they would have a radically different doctrine for the use of strike craft.
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I wonder how precise the Terran FTL is and if their strike craft have it? Could they jump near the Cylons, salvo their weapons and jump out?

[Borgholio]

It seems the Sulaco could jump in and out of hyperspace pretty fast. Took only a few seconds to power the drive and get moving. Even the Colonials can't spin up the FTLs that fast. We've never seen it in the movies, but I wonder if a version of "warp strafing" is plausible in the Aliens' -verse. That is, hyper-jump to the target, unleash nuclear hell, hyper-jump away. Turn around, rinse, repeat.

I suppose it all depends on how fast the drive can be re-charged after leaving hyperspace, and how accurate the navigation computers are. Could be like Star Wars where the jump to hyperspace is actually pretty quick, it's the course-plotting that takes time.

[Vianca]

Additionally, if you have to deal with opponents possessed of advanced energy weapons, you would have a powerful incentive to put some serious thought into exotic ways of defeating them. Some sort of enveloping plasma sheath is not outside the realms of possibility....

The question is, would a defense that works well against energy-based weapons have any effect on projectiles or missiles? Magnetic fields may shunt ionized particles and such (stretching here, been I while since I cracked open a physics book), but would it have an effect on a high-velocity kinetic round? It may deflect the direction a bit, but maybe not enough to count on a well-aimed shot. Kinda grabbing straws here, actually. We won't really know until MA gets to that.

However it turns out to be, tho, I'm fairly confident that it's going to be awesome.

Why are you all forgetting gravitics?
I mean, they got working gravity and anti-gravity devices, so a gravity based shield should be possible, even if it just pushes the hostile objects away.

[Diverball]

I mean, they got working gravity and anti-gravity devices, so a gravity based shield should be possible, even if it just pushes the hostile objects away.

I don't think we've ever seen evidence of anti-gravity technology. The few times we've seen ships take off in a gravity well, they've definitely been using thrusters.

And there's a wide gap between generating a 1g artifically gravity field, and generating the kind of fields necessary to bend the course of projectiles moving at hypersonic velocities.

[Themightytom]

Why are you all forgetting gravitics?
I mean, they got working gravity and anti-gravity devices, so a gravity based shield should be possible, even if it just pushes the hostile objects away.

Oh my god this is "let's cut mix and match ships" all over again.

[Vianca]

Why are you all forgetting gravitics?
I mean, they got working gravity and anti-gravity devices, so a gravity based shield should be possible, even if it just pushes the hostile objects away.

Oh my god this is "let's cut mix and match ships" all over again.

Be glad I'm not talking about artificial black holes created by very concentrated high lvl's gravity forces.
It's more dragging the enemy fire off-track several times after each other before being pushed a bit backwards.
You are right that it would need a completely new ship design to work.
But for testing the principle....
A couple of turrets should be enough for that.

On that note, the right decoy missile might make quite the havok under enemy figjters by completely disrupting their flying patrons by forcing them to hit each other by high speed passes straight true the middle of the formation.


ps: Might want to work on your wording, tom.

[Themightytom]

Be glad I'm not talking about artificial black holes created by very concentrated high lvl's gravity forces.

or leprechauns or unicorns...

It's more dragging the enemy fire off-track several times after each other before being pushed a bit backwards.

...aim slightly to one side and get closer, and what is this reverse gravity pushing against anyway, are you gonna squish your base star?

You are right that it would need a completely new ship design to work.
But for testing the principle....
A couple of turrets should beenougj for that.

What? Nooo we just take that dome you had earlier, and flip it around so it's convex to focus the quantum and reverse the polarity.

On that note, the right decoy missile might make quite the havok under enemy figjters by completely disrupting their flying patrons by forcing them to hit each other by high speed passes straight true the middle of the formation.

Are you spelling words phonetically instead of using a dictionary?

[Diverball]

On that note, the right decoy missile might make quite the havok under enemy figjters by completely disrupting their flying patrons by forcing them to hit each other by high speed passes straight true the middle of the formation.

Assuming that anything generating a gravity field that strong would actually be capable of moving.... Or in fact, assuming that the generator wouldn't simply implode on itself the instant it was turned on. We've seen no evidence of gravitic technology of that level of sophistication.

TBH, and it may just be me, I've always got the subtle impression that the Colonials don't actually know precisely how their FTL and gravitic tech work. More than one fanfic author has explained it away as the technology being "a gift from the Lords of Kobol".

[Themightytom]

TBH, and it may just be me, I've always got the subtle impression that the Colonials don't actually know precisely how their FTL and gravitic tech work. More than one fanfic author has explained it away as the technology being "a gift from the Lords of Kobol".

I have the same impression, Colonial tech seems almost redundantly tough, and that suggests that they don't push things to the edge at all. There's no "let's realign our deflector dish to do something completely different, it's POSSIBLE but so delicate a process that it will cripple the ship!" instead
"RAMMING SPEED! THE OLD GIRL CAN TAKE IT!"

I mean SOFTWARE extends the range of their FTL? A forty year old viper does as well against a modern one, sans hacking, as Lee's brand new modern one? try jumping in an F-14 and taking on a modern MIG.

Colonial technology seems somehow designed to be unsophisticated, which is reflective of an unsophisticated mentality. I find it impossible to imagine Adama ordering someone to invert the gravity field and have it project outwards. He couldn't even take himself seriously when he tried to explain why the cylons had a bath tub on his bridge.

So... against that... why do the Cylons have to bother being flashy. They send zounds of resurrecting raiders out and spam the colonials with missiles and get by just fine. Their one act of finesse wasn't technological, it was by fiat of The Colonials Didn't Know They Looked Human.