Credit/Debit Card Fraud and Joe Public.

SoX · Post by **SoX** » 2006-02-07 12:31am

This is basically a rant about credit/debit card fraud. Anyone else in the "customer service" experience this?

Im constantly reading about card fraud and indentity theft in the news, how it all costs like 3 billion pounds a year. Then I go to work and see why. People are stupid. No matter how many secruity measures the banks/government try to put in place, the human aspect of the system always fucks it up! Dont people understand fraud? Dont they realise what they're using to pay for services?

I regularly get 3 or 4 people a day trying to use someone elses card, now its usually perfectly harmless its their dad's or their partners card. But how the fuck am I meant to know that. Thats right! A woman will come up to the bar and attempt to use a card that says Mr Brown on it. Now i say "this isnt your card is it Madam?"... and they look at me... "I cant use it, because its not yours and its fraud, if i put this transaction through that makes me an accessory to fraud. I dont know about you but i dont want to go to jail."... "oh, its my husbands card".. "well freakin get HIM to come up here and put the PIN in/sign for it".

Now then, after the 14th of February we can only accept PINs to authorize payments on cards. A random 4 digit number which only the cardholder should know. Seems a pretty good secruity measure yeah? No. The person always screws it up. For example when Chip and PIN first came into service i'd ask people if they knew their PIN so we could continue with the transaction. I've had 2 people say "Yes, its 1942.." outloud! While i have their card in my hand.. yes outloud! I could just see them getting mugged outside and the mugger laughing his ass off!. Also, the amount of times someone else has entered the PIN for the cardholder, only the cardholder should know the PIN. If they get hit by card fraud and the bank asks them "Did anyone else know the PIN?", they'd have to lie. And the bank would know its a lie because the correct frickin PIN was entered on the fraudulant transaction. IDIOTS!

Another good one. Ive asked customers to enter their PIN, they wonder for a while... get out their mobile phone (obviously where they have the PIN stored) then enter it. It says when you get your PIN, NEVER WRITE IT DOWN OR KEEP IT WITH YOUR CARD!... where do people keep their card? in their wallet, where is their wallet? in their pocket and where is their phone? IN THEIR FREAKIN POCKET!

Its also annoying how many people cant follow simple instructions:

"Please press the green button to confirm the correct amount. Then enter your PIN."

not hard. what do they do? Totally ignore me and just imediately enter their PIN. Im like "please PRESS THE GREEN BUTTON to confirm the amount then enter your PIN"

and usually the reply comes "Why do i need to do that?"

"To confirm the freakin' amount you plant pot! I could have put 4000 quid on your card and you would have just put your PIN in willy nilly"

At our pub we take a swipe of a card to get people's card details incase they do a runner from a tab, then we have a payment method. When they come to pay their tab off we give them the copy of the details we took and tell them to destroy it. The amount of people that just leave it on the bar is sickening. It has all the card details on that anyone needs to make a transaction from their account.

It really is a problem. Im not surprised people get thousands of pounds stolen out of their account, when they just leave what is basically their card just lying on the bar.

I bet now fraudsters could easily get 100,000 of pounds out of accounts just by sifting through the rubbish of pubs like ours.

And it gets me when people get annoyed that i refuse a card that says Mrs White on it when they're a bloke. "hey if that was your card, and a woman was trying to use it and i accepted it, you'd be pretty damn pissed off! So shut the fuck up and get your wife/girl friend/mum/sister to come up here and use HER card!"

Garrr!..

SoX · Post by **SoX** » 2006-02-07 12:36am

oh i forgot to add.
I get this loads.

"Im sorry i dont know my PIN, can i sign for it?"

I want to say: "ITS FOUR NUMEBRS!.. FOUR! You can remember where you live cant you? You can remember your phone number? Why the HELL cant you remember 4 numbers!?"

to which ill probably get the reply: "I have 5 cards, i cant remember the PIN to them all"

at this point i want to smash their head against the wall.

"you can change it moron!"

Though I have to say:
"At the moment I can print off something for you to sign, but after the 14th of Feb I cant do that so you'll have to know your PIN by then."

Post by **Broomstick** » 2006-02-07 06:08am

SoX wrote:"Im sorry i dont know my PIN, can i sign for it?"

I want to say: "ITS FOUR NUMEBRS!.. FOUR! You can remember where you live cant you? You can remember your phone number? Why the HELL cant you remember 4 numbers!?"

Actually, some of us DO have a problem remember 4 numbers. It usually takes me 2 years to learn a new phone number (that Og my cellphone has a "my phone number" feature). I remember where I live because of nearby landmarks and the building's spatial relationship to everything else in its environment. I remember where my PO box is at the post office by its position in the wall, but I doubt I could give you the number correctly even if you pulled out all my fingernails to get the information.

On the other hand, being an intelligent person who doesn't handle numbers well, I've come up with several means of reminding myself of important numbers without tipping off Bad People as to what they are or what they're attached to. Which is why people who hold up the line because they can't be bothered with their PIN piss the hell out of me - hey if you've got a memory problem there are things you can do about it. Otherwise, you're just fucking lazy.

WyrdNyrd · Post by **WyrdNyrd** » 2006-02-07 06:22am

So, Broomstick, what do you do when J. asks you to "fly by the numbers"?

But seriously, how do you fly if remembering numbers is tricky? Don't you need to know things like climb rates, specific fuel consumption, maximum ceiling, etc? And don't these change for every plane you fly? Or do you do all your flying "by the seat of your pants"?

</off topic>

Back to CC fraud: There are a lot of crooks who use very sophisticated identity-theft schemes. And sometimes crooks just luck out, like when clueless corporations compromise tens of thousands of numbers at a time. Plus then you get the idiots like SoX mentioned, that practically beg to become victims of CC fraud.

We really need more secure transaction methods besides "CC number + PIN/Signature", especially for 'Net commerce. We've limped along OK so far, but only at a huge cost in fraud and inconvenience.

Now the SET (Secure Electronic Transactions) protocol was supposed to solve all these problems. But I believe that initiative was still-born, probably a victim of its own complexity. Once again "good-enough" has trounced "perfect-but-costly" in the marketplace.

mr friendly guy · Post by **mr friendly guy** » 2006-02-07 07:26am

Aren't these people aware that you can get an accessory credit card attached to your same credit card account. This way you can give the accessory card to say a partner for them to use, so you don't have to be present when they use it (since over here credit card transactions require a signature).

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-02-07 08:31am

Personally I'm scary-good with numbers. I remember the phone numbers of people I don't even like. I remember my bank account no. off the top of my head. I know my uber-long alpha-numeric password to this very site off by heart.

SoX · Post by **SoX** » 2006-02-07 08:54am

In reply to Broomstick:

In my crazy rant i totally forgot some people have problems with numbers. I have been told though, over here there will be cards for people with disabilities that are unable to enter a PIN and for people that have problems with numbers. But these cards need to be specially requested from your bank.

--------

I dont think there could be a security measure in place thatt would eliminate the human factor. There will still be idiots that'll just give away details to anyone that asks for them.

There was some program on ITV that highlighted the problem by surveying people on the street and asking them personal details, they pushed it as far as they could go. they got Names, DOBs, Home Addresses, Bank Account Numbers, Credit Card details, Next of Kin details. Its crazy to see what information people will just give away to someone on the sreet with a clipboard and pen.

What gets me is that when these people get hit by fraud and the bank re-imburses them, its the other bank customers that foot the bill.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2006-02-07 09:32am

You should just start committing credit card fraud. Problem solved! Social conditioning is something that people will just respond to, IIRC that's how some hackers got into some military installation a while ago, they just phoned the place up and asked questions that people just respond to, interspersed with questions regarding security and such. Then there's all that funky crap Derren Brown can do.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2006-02-07 09:50am

I actually don't know the PIN number for either of my credit cards. I purposely shredded them years ago when they were sent to me because at that time the only thing I would have needed them for was to get cash advances. IMO cash advances are bad.

Since they start charging interest on cash advances right away I didn't ever want to get a cash advance and therefore saw no reason to keep my PIN numbers around.

I do know the PIN number for my ATM/Debit card (VISA) so I could use that if someone insisted on something with a PIN number.

For Credit Card security I've notice some people writing on the signature line on the back of their card "see photo I.D." which is supposed to require the holder to produce photo identification. I've noticed more places checking identification for credit card purchases as an aditional safety feature.

Then of course online purchases ask for those extra safety numbers that serveral of the card companies have added to cards. That way people can't just get ahold of your account number and start buying stuff. They need to know the other few numbers that are printed in teeny tiny print on the front or back (VISA and Masetercard do one thing while American Express does something else.) of the actual credit card

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2006-02-07 09:52am

when these idiots finally come to see me after their cards have been compromised/stolen etc. it is always someone elses fault. In their minds blame most commonly falls on the bank.

"Why did you let my account get drained to almost zero!"
because your PIN was used, dipshit!

My "favorite" ones are those who take the opportunity to ramble off a manefesto on American socio-econonc policy. Whatever, bluehair, it's sure is George Bush's fault that you cant keep track of your debit card.

Post by **Edi** » 2006-02-07 10:03am

Anybody stupid enough to not take care of their credit/debit card PIN deserves what's coming to them. It's different when it's not really their fault, like the incident here last year or the year before when some crooks attached a device to several ATMs that stored the magnetic strip information in memory and recorded the PINs and allowed them to duplicate the cards and empty people's accounts. What they did was make a facade that fit snugly over the ATMs and looked pretty authentic, and ittook some time before somebody noticed, becamse suspicious and contacted the cops.

I do have the PIN number of an ATM card in my wallet. It just doesn't correspond to the card that's actually in there, so even if I mislaid it and somebody tried to use it, the ATM would just eat the card and I'd get it back in mail.

I also remember numbers well, so it's no problem for me even with longer number sequences.

As far as CC and other card based transactions go, here you need to provide photo ID if the price of the purchase is over €50. You need to sign all card transactions as well.

Edi

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2006-02-07 11:23am

Well I store the pin in my phone.

Under a regular name, in the middle of the phone number.

Better than writing it down, and I sometimes forget one of the many pin codes I have.

Works for me

Netko · Post by **Netko** » 2006-02-07 12:14pm

My cell phone has a cool feature - the password vault. I use that for several of the less used pins (actualy, I've had those cards for several years now and I've never had a need to use their PINs), however it is protected by 1) strong password on the vault , 2) PIN on the phone, plus the thief would need to be aware of the feature since its buried pretty deep in the menues. My primary debit and credit cards PINs are commited to memory and exist only there.

The phone is always in the pocket on the opposite side of pocket with the walet so unless someone mugged me by beating the shit out of me and leaving me for dead (in which case credit card fraud is the least of my problems), its very unlikely they would get both the cards and the phone.

Jew · Post by **Jew** » 2006-02-07 01:12pm

Destructionator XIII wrote:I was thinking of a better way to do online purchases a while back. Instead of giving your actual card number to each vendor, you instead go to your bank (either the physical building or their secure website) and use your credit card to generate a one time use key number. This number would be for the exact amount you specified, no more and no less. Then, after it is used once, it becomes invalid.

Yeah, single-use credit card numbers are a good way to protect yourself. American Express and Discover have been offering them since 2000. American Express's service is called "Private Payments" and I think Discover's is "Discover Deskshop."

Citibank offers Visa cards with single-use numbers called virtual account numbers.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2006-02-07 01:16pm

On a related note, the new self service tills at Tesco here don't ask for any form of ID when you use a card. You just swipte and it prints your reciept, no request for a pin.

I really need to get round to pointing out the blatant security hole to them. Anyone can use anyones card in them without being questioned.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2006-02-07 01:19pm

I took a report of credit/debit card abuse recently at the local movie theater. Ended up breaking a 12 person ring at the theater that was involved too. The kids at the concession stand would take your card and say that their card reader didn't work and would have to go over to another to charge it, meanwhile while they were gone with the card they would type the number into their cell and later write it down. They would then later enter then number manually and charge whatever to it. They used this to buy snacks all day long. Funny thing is they did it to a police officer and her card company called her and asked her if she had been grazing all day or what, so that is how they got busted. 12 people, most of them minors, were indicted for a felony on that one.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2006-02-07 08:09pm

WyrdNyrd wrote:So, Broomstick, what do you do when J. asks you to "fly by the numbers"?

But seriously, how do you fly if remembering numbers is tricky? Don't you need to know things like climb rates, specific fuel consumption, maximum ceiling, etc? And don't these change for every plane you fly? Or do you do all your flying "by the seat of your pants"?

Lots and lots of rote memorization.

When I'm checking out on a new airplane I'll spend the morning and evening commute (I ride a train - unAmerican, I know, but hey, I'm weird) reviewing the performance numbers, writing them down over and over... eventually they sink in, it just takes longer than for most people.

I've also been know to write stuff on my arm in ballpoint pen, under the theory that if I lose my arm I've got lots worse problems than remembering a bunch o' numbers. When I was doing serious cross-countries in my student days my forearms looked like they'd been attacked by rampaging tattoo artists. At one point I had to start using a different colored ink for each flight because the stuff wasn't washing off fast enough.

Even for local flights, though, I'll often carry a 3x5 card with Valuable Numbers and Information on it. Which isn't a bad idea for anyone who flies, really. After all, the Big Guys with the airlines write everything down before they take off - nothing wrong with imitating the pros.

Oh, and maximum ceiling - the airplane will let you know when you reach that, no need to look at the numbers - when "best climb" gives you no climb at all, you've reached the top.

I find numbers difficult, not impossible.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2006-02-07 08:15pm

SoX wrote:In reply to Broomstick:

In my crazy rant i totally forgot some people have problems with numbers. I have been told though, over here there will be cards for people with disabilities that are unable to enter a PIN and for people that have problems with numbers. But these cards need to be specially requested from your bank.

Right. And MOST people with "number difficulty" CAN learn numbers, it just takes some effort. It's just that most people are lazy fuckers if they can get away with it.

I've got my PIN memorized, along with my Social Security number and my husband's cellphone (I'll more likely need to call him than call myself, after all) and various other vital numbers. It took some effort, but I did it.

The upside to my numbers issues is that I have great incentive to limit the number of cards because I'm so disinclined to memorize multiple PINs.

What I can't understand is why I can remember the tail number of every airplane I've ever flown without much effort - but maybe my brain is storing them as "names" and not as "numbers". The human brain is a pretty peculiar thing at times...

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2006-02-07 10:27pm

A lot of the gas stations around here have started requiring an authorization code when using the pay at the pump feature. In most cases that just means the zip code of the billing address for the specific credit card you are using.

SoX · Post by **SoX** » 2006-02-08 07:07pm

Sharp-kun wrote:On a related note, the new self service tills at Tesco here don't ask for any form of ID when you use a card. You just swipte and it prints your reciept, no request for a pin.

I really need to get round to pointing out the blatant security hole to them. Anyone can use anyones card in them without being questioned.

Yeah i noticed that at our tescos. It doesnt stop the fraud but the person can be caught on CCTV as all the tills are covered by CCTV and the time of the fraudulant transaction can be pin pointed.