THEL (The High Energy Laser) vs M1A2 (science guys read)

[Omega-13]

I'm not sure if you guys are familiar with the new weapon system the American government has, called THEL,

Now, what if one of these was pointed at an M1A2, what would happen? Anything?

[phongn]

Dunno about how effective the armor of an M1A2 would be, but I suspect that THEL doesn't have enough kick to do any serious harm. It's designed for shooting down rockets and artillery shells, not heavily-armored tanks.

[Azeron]

I don;t thinik it would work. Lasers work by heating an object to destrution. there is just too much mass, the laser would probably melt befgore it could get through the armour.

The isrealis have a working thel system I hear.

[TrailerParkJawa]

What would happen to the laser when the tank crew kicks off the smoke grenades ?

[RayCav of ASVS]

What would happen to the laser when the tank crew kicks off the smoke grenades ?

Same thing that happens to disco lasers in smoke - it bounces off, to everywhere and scatters off, essentially negating any destructive effect the beam might have.

A friend of mine suggested simply armoring missiles with mirrors:D

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

If you have a powerful enough laser, won't it just melt the mirror?

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Mirrors depend on the type of light being used. Visible and UV lasers can be reflected, but a percentage of the energy IS absorbed. Put a mirror outside in the sun for a few minutes. Notice it warms up? X-ray and gamma ray lasers are much harder to reflect. We don't use them, because pumping the lasing medium requires an EMP, (like from a nuclear reaction) making them disposable! This is OK if you have them in orbit, and are shooting sideways or down. This was the premise for SDI, or "star wars" as a now drooling ex president once called it.
Chemical catalyst lasers show the most promise, as even today, chemical energy is still the best storage system, until you get to that large uncontroled release of nuclear energy.
They main drawback to lasers used as defence, are targeting, and atmospheric blurring of focus.
In the armor-penatration arms race, armor is way ahead. That is only because the offence is still so weak, compaired to kinetics.
Pound for pound, cubic foot, per cubic foot, the whammy that kinetics dish out compaired to their energy counterparts, is overwhelming.
Then there is $$$$$$$$$$$!
When lasers are burning holes in things, they form a cloud around the hot spot, that acts as a beam speader, further eroding their effectiveness.
In short, until we get blaser type yields in our lasers, (multimegawatts per second) tanks won't even get hot, much less have holes melted in them.
Blinding sensors, yes. Picking off the man with his head poking outside, yes.

[Omega-13]

THEL is multi megawatt laser....

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

I have done a little web surfing, and I like what I see. This weapon has great promise. Used as a replacement upgrade to the patriot missile system, and as a balanced part of a combined arms group, will assure not only air superiority, but complete denial of enemy air use whatsoever! SAMs, who cares? With the ability to linger slowly over the battlefield, AC-130s, (Puff the magic dragon) and A10s (Warthogs)can quadruple their combat effectiveness. Close air support gets a shot of steriods! This would be especially useful to helicopters, the most fragile of the flying craft. Stay out of small and medium arms range, and be as immune as anyone can be in a combat situation! Air cavelry, medivac, resupply runs, you name it, it will become more effective, or safer.
This system is far too weak in it's present form to be used as anti armor. (not it's intended role) Anything that flies must be, by it's very nature light and relatively unarmored. Otherwise it will never get off the ground, or have a range to short to be useful. Ground vehicles don't share this weakness. Tanks are weighed in tons, not pounds! At present there is no anti laser armor in use. This weapon system will change this. The weapon counterweapon arms race will continue on. I can think of several counters to things off the top of my head.
Thick paint, with micro mirrors as a major part of the pigment. This is already a real world item, in the custom car market.(albeit thinner paint, and more glossy)Thin laminate panels, retrofitted, and replaceable. Total weight, 2-3 hundred pounds. Cost? Minimal, compared to the cost of a tank or other armored vehicle.
The sheer mass of a tank works in it's favour. Even if you can get a solid targeting lock on a moving target, you would get, at best, a blowtorch burn, rather than any pentration.The deeper the burn, the more the outgassing of plasmiated armor will spread the beam to the surounding armor, rather than boring into the armor like a drill bit. Just how good of a lock are we talking about here? Unless the beam stays in an area no more than an inch or so wide, it will only be a hot spot a foot or so wide.
I don't want to pooh pooh this weapon. As a technophile, the idea of energy beams used effectively in combat gives me a woody! Bright lights, pretty colors, enemy vehicles exploding and killing the enemy! Whoo hoo!
Used in it's intended role, it looks to be formidable. This kind of beam, as opposed to a kinetic shock of high explosive proximity detonation would detonate the explosive part of the warhead, rather than knocking it to pieces, and the warhead detoating on the ground impact. This would be ideal for chemical warheads, as if you can get them to explode high enough in the air, the chemical agent is just too dilute to be deadly. When can we get these to the Israelis? SCUDs no more! They are the masters of field test debugging, and performance tweaking.
I have to pat myself on the back, for my good guessing. Chem-cat powered, short range AAA as it's intended role. Portable, but not as easy to move as missile batteries.
The duetrium flouride lasing medium implies a yellow-green color of the beam. As a multi mega watt laser, (2-10 megawatts )in the visible light spectrum, (as opposed to X-ray or gamma ray)it will definately warm up the armor. That's about all it will do. Sorry, but higher frequencies, or much more power will be needed to punch through heavey armor.

[LordShaithis]

Chrostas, me want links!

[Admiral Valdemar]

X-ray lasers can be made now without using a single nuke to get them going, but they need the power, though they can't be reflected or refracted as has been said.

Gamma rays are too penetrating, though if there is loads of armour then the beams will pass through and probably kill the occupants, an anti-armour laser.

However, Neutral Particle Beams (NPBs) are the way forward,

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airc ... berds.html

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

THEL is multi megawatt laser....

I thought it was like 100 kilowatts with a 400 kilojoule burst fire.

[phongn]

Okay people, these are the variuos US laser projects that I know about:

Airborne Laser: A megawatt-class chemical laser mounted onboard a modified 747F. The nose has a large turret and there's various fire-control systems (including low-powered lasers) to lock on and engage anything foolish enough to come into range (which is quite great). It's principle mission is to destroy enemy ballistic missiles in the boost phase before they can do harm to allied troops or cities downrange. IIRC, they'll operate in pairs to cover each other and ensure that there is complete coverage of the sky.

Space Based Laser: The ultimate boost-phase interception system. Still in early planning, it will be intended as a component to the US NMD system under now under construction. It will likely be a chemcial laser.

Theatre High Energy Laser: A defensive chemical laser designed to engage incoming artillery, tube and rocket. It blows a small hole in the rocket or shell, at which point aerodynamic forces take over and shatter it. It, of course, can also engage other things, but is designed primarily for the anti-artillery role. It's a semimobile installations (a bunch of truck crates, essentially), but the Army plans for a solid-state mobile version

Airborne Tactical Laser: An offensive laser to be mounted in a modified C-130. It has a firepower in the hundred-kilowatt range, and I believe that it will be chemical.

F-35 Laser: At the expense of a fuel tank, a solid-state 100kW laser will be mounted in the STOVL version for various missions, mostly ground-attack. It can, of course, be used for air-combat. The plan is for a 4-sec fire, 4-sec recharge, 4-sec fire, 30-sec cooldown ciring cycle.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

www.trw.com/marketplace/main/0,1151,39_ ... 3^,FF.html
http:www.smdc.army.mil/FactSheets/THEL.html
http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/thel.htm
There are more, but apear to be dry mision statements, and beaurocratese.
Note I have only skimmed the sites, and did not see any power ratings. I relied on an earlier post for power output.
I f I am reading these right, it is currently being tested. This kind of thing only gets better. If there is some kind of power limit, based on scaling, or maximun energy density, this could be overcome the same way mirror size is overcome when making an optical telescope. That is, multiple small units with a common feed point. This would have the advantage of only having to aim one beam. This would cause mobility problems, by increasing the size of the weapon past the point of being realisticly called "mobile", like the super guns of ww2. Or, it could make setup a royal pain in the ass, by making placement, and alignmint of multiple individual units in the battery so precise, that it is tough to get right.
These real world concerns are already being addressed by greater minds than mine, I am sure.
Off the top of my head, simply slaving 10 to the same controler would get you 10x more power on the target. Also reduce the vulnerability of the whole system. But this would make some angles of fire more powerful than other, since not all of the beams would be in effective range, or even be able to be brought to bear, if the terain is not perfectly flat. Deployment pattern, and expected incoming flight path would be just one more variable the battle planner of tomorrow will face.
The realworld payoff is too great! Progress marches on!
LASER beams, exploding enemy units, bright lights, pretty colors. Drool!
Most important, WE have it, THEY don't! Slather!
Ain't Science grand!

[phongn]

The realworld payoff is too great! Progress marches on!
LASER beams, exploding enemy units, bright lights, pretty colors. Drool!
Most important, WE have it, THEY don't! Slather!
Ain't Science grand!

Actually, some people 'in the know' that I know believe that China may be ahead of the US in this field

[Crazy_Vasey]

Only a matter of time now before someone builds a death star

[Omega-13]

The realworld payoff is too great! Progress marches on!
LASER beams, exploding enemy units, bright lights, pretty colors. Drool!
Most important, WE have it, THEY don't! Slather!
Ain't Science grand!

Actually, some people 'in the know' that I know believe that China may be ahead of the US in this field

don't worry, the US will just dump more $ into it

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Are any of these people "In the know"" known, because they know"?
I am sorry, but that line sounded a bit tweaker.
Anyone truly in aposition to know these things wouldn't be talking to you, me or anyone else without the propper security clearence. Or if they are, they won't be for long. Counter intell guys play rough.
You will notice that the only REAL, hard data on this project is very general, unclassified stuff, or PR fluff by the manufacturer, interested in keeping the funds going.
I go by the premise that what ever they tell us, is 5-15 years behind the reality, (stealth tech is a classic example, Groom Lake, AREA 51, and the"alien" tech. Why it must be from the Aliens, 'cuz it looks so alien!)
To balance this, corporate fluff always overstates the effectiveness of any new system, by a factor of 10.(Patriot missiles!)
Maybe the Chinese are working on something similar, but let us not forget, that even with the larger population base to work with, only a small percentage are well educated. (Less than 30% is literate, according to an LA Times article on education in China, that I read today, in today's issue.)Imported talent has a way of turning right around, and selling your secrets to the NEXT guy.
There is also a matter of money to be spent, total.
The chinese are desperatly playing catch up in the conventional arms, and strategic nuclear arms fields. This takes money, and skilled talent. They don't have enough to everything they want, so they are prioritizing the bulk of their effort into:
Submarines, to counter American naval forces in the region.
Surface ships, to transport troops, and escort troopships into Taiwan. They don't think to win against the US, only make the battle too bloody for our taste.
Short and medium range aircraft, for anti ship, and close air support in invading Taiwan. This includes fighters for air supremicy over the region.
Nuclear weapons, tactical, for deterance agaist the US fleet in the area, for the Taiwan goal.
ICBMs, for strategic deterance of the USA. "Is Taiwon worth five US cities?" is the implied threat in the form of a question we hear so often.
I do not belive China has the technological base, spare skilled manpower, or the money to develoup this program. Keep in mind we are field testing this thing, not designing it.
The ugly possibility of stealing the plans is a very real one. They did it before, with the 3rd generation nukes. Even so, without the tech base, you can not make, or maintain such a system.

[Sea Skimmer]

THEL can reportly punch through about an inch of aluminum with a one second burst.

It would overheat long before it could penetrate even the side armor of an M1A2.

The M1A2 on theo therh and could kill the THEL with a short burst of coaxil machinegun fire.

[RadiO]

I do not belive China has the technological base, spare skilled manpower, or the money to develoup this program. Keep in mind we are field testing this thing, not designing it..

They apparently have a stabilised laser system on their most recent MBT design for "dazzling" (i.e permamently blinding) enemy helo crews and infantry. I know that's not the same as having a Sexy-Beam-O'-Death, but... interesting.

[Eleas]

(RadiO)
"They apparently have a stabilised laser system on their most recent MBT design for "dazzling" (i.e permamently blinding) enemy helo crews and infantry. I know that's not the same as having a Sexy-Beam-O'-Death, but... interesting."

I'm curious - aren't "dazzle" weapons banned by international treaties? I seem to have heard something like that. And if they're not, they should be.

[RadiO]

Yeah... I thought that too, and was consequently surprised about this. I got the information from this article from China-Defense.com(which I'm not entirely sure of the providence thereof, but interesting for all that):

http://www.china-defense.com/armor/Type98/type98_1.html

Which contains this passage on the third page:

Perhaps the most interesting characteristic of the Type 98 is the addition of what appears to be a previously unknown active self-defense system. Unlike contemporary Russian active tank self-defense systems like Drozd, Drozd-2, and Arena, which launch projectiles to disable or "shoot-down" incoming anti-tank missiles and projectiles, the Chinese system apparently uses a high-powered laser to directly attack the enemy weapon's optics and gunner. The system includes what appears to be a laser warning receiver (LWR - the dome-shaped device on the turret roof behind the commander's position), that warns the crew that their tank is being illuminated by an enemy range-finding or weapon-guidance laser. The turret of the tank can then be traversed to face the direction of the enemy threat, and the laser self-defense weapon (LSDW - the box-shaped device on the turret roof behind the gunner's position), can be employed against the source of the enemy laser.

Doesn't sound too outlandish... If this is true, then the People's Liberation Army evidently don't give a damn about any international treaties on "dazzling" lasers / are too pragmatic to avoid fielding a weapon that may soon be depressingly commonplace on the battlefield - depending on your point of view. I'm not too pleased about the prospect.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

PS:
When I was in the military, I held a "Secret" clearance. There are only 4 in the USA that I can positively confirm, from direct personel experience.They go like this:
Confidential. Low level, but with a properly analised bulk, can reveal strategic strengthes in numbers.
Secret. Tactical data, like codes, that can have a direct tactical influence on a single battle's outcome.
Top secret. Data on battalion strengths, equipment, troop movement, doctrin ect... that could concievably effect a theatre of operations encounters.
Ultra. Denied to those below general staff, or intel sensative civilians.(Spooks, 8-ball command, and cabinate level civilians.
X: There are an unknown levels of further clearances, denied to even exsist. They almost have to, by the very nature of secrecy.The very idea of the president not haveing a higher clearence than a high level general is ludicrous.
Classified information is only given out to: those who have the required clearance, and ALSO need to know!
I can't tell you the number of time I was told that I wasn't cleared, or didn't Need To Know! and yes, you hear the capitol letters when they are spoken to you!

Anytime you hear someone claiming to tell you classified data, they are:
Fools, who should keep their stupid mouth shut, before they trip over it and get hurt. (See traitors) Least likely.
Traitors, who should be shot, for stupidity, if not for treason. Even less likely.

Braggarts, full of shit, and snowing you because they know you can't check up on their source. Most likely.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Blinding a satilite, or a man or a sensor is childs play. I can do 2 out of 3 with a big mirror, on a bright sunny day. I can blind you with my laser pointer, but it can't do much else.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

I forsee anti laser optical protection will be part of the equation. This is the reverse of light amplification used in night vision. Weapon, counter, weapon counter. The dance of death goes on. Now is never stabil for long, as the music continues.