Fatwa: Muslims can't be part of one-way trip to Mars

[Lagmonster]

Article courtesy of CNN

According to the General Authority of Islamic Affairs & Endowments in the UAE, a prohibition against "giving up one's life willingly" means that Muslims shouldn't take part in a space mission that won't allow them to return to Earth. I have no idea what to make of this, knowing little about the proposed 'one-way trip' so far. I would assume that the plan is for the people to survive on Mars, in limited habitats or colonies, which raises the question of whether or not "living on Mars for several months/years and then dying because of X equipment failure or unplanned tragedy" counts as 'suicide' in any context. Otherwise, I'd wonder whether the prohibition extends to, say, throwing yourself into the path of a gunman's bullet in order to save others.

[Borgholio]

I would hardly consider what is essentially emigration to be the same as suicide. It's not a deliberate suicide attempt, it's just an activity that is slightly risky.

[dragon]

I would hardly consider what is essentially emigration to be the same as suicide. It's not a deliberate suicide attempt, it's just an activity that is slightly risky.

Because it's they see it as one way and that you'll die. What they don't consider is that alot of the settlers of various countries were considered one way for a given time. After all if they live on Mars 15/20 years it might just become two way

[Borgholio]

You can move to the house across the street and stay there until you die, which could be decades. Are Muslims not allowed to make a one-way trip anywhere?

[dragon]

“Such a one-way journey poses a real risk to life, and that can never be justified in Islam,” the committee said. “There is a possibility that an individual who travels to planet Mars may not be able to remain alive there, and is more vulnerable to death.”

“Protecting life against all possible dangers and keeping it safe is an issue agreed upon by all religions and is clearly stipulated in verse [4:29] of the Holy Qurʾān: Do not kill yourselves or one another. Indeed, Allāh is to you ever Merciful.

link

Going by that there should be no muslim explorers

[Broomstick]

I would hardly consider what is essentially emigration to be the same as suicide. It's not a deliberate suicide attempt, it's just an activity that is slightly risky.

No venture into space is only "slightly" risky. It is VERY risky even to go into orbit, much less to Mars.

Which is not the same as impossible.

I gather the objection isn't so much to a colonization where people go to Mars, have a reasonable expectation of something like a normal lifespan, and leave descendents as a fear this would be people going to Mars and almost certainly being dead within months to a year or two, leaving no one behind. That's what makes it a "suicide" mission, not so much the permanent emigration idea.

That's what I got reading past headlines, but admittedly I haven't studied the fatwa in depth, nor am I any sort of expert on Muslim ethics.

[Channel72]

You mean backwards religious fundamentalists are excluded from future missions to other planets?

Damn, I'm so upset.

[Lagmonster]

I'm trying to avoid the more crass "stoopid religious people" jokes here. Whatever you think of them, they're charged with protecting the souls of the population, which I suppose if you believe in such things is a pretty important responsibility (certainly, it would be if it were real). If you look beyond that, it suggests that people are telegraphing the belief that this mission is going to go belly up so fast that a fair risk assessment results in a religious prohibition.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Well, Mars One is suicidally stupid. It's a publicity stunt, and given the extremely compressed timeframes we're talking about here (technology demonstrator launching in less than four years, permanent settlement ready for occupants in less than nine years from now); if they actually succeed in sending anyone in the general direction to Mars ... the likely outcome is everybody dies in a fiery explosion, or scattered across the Martian landscape within a ten mile radius of the "Mars One Memorial Crater". Or, if by some miracle, they actually survive the trip ... they'll probably all be dead within a Martian year ... probably of radiation poisoning sustained from the trip over, radiation poisoning sustained after landing on Mars, or some critical life support failure that nobody foresaw because they're doing this, pretty much, sight-unseen.

So, I rather suspect that the fatwa isn't against Martian exploration in general, but against Mars One specifically.

[Spekio]

I'm trying to avoid the more crass "stoopid religious people" jokes here. Whatever you think of them, they're charged with protecting the souls of the population, which I suppose if you believe in such things is a pretty important responsibility (certainly, it would be if it were real). If you look beyond that, it suggests that people are telegraphing the belief that this mission is going to go belly up so fast that a fair risk assessment results in a religious prohibition.

You are assuming these people are being rational, even if subconciously, wich they are not. This is a knee jerk reaction to anything that isn't compatible with their world view.

[Elheru Aran]

The Muslims did do a considerable amount of exploration and settlement back in their time, after all. This is just a wee bit different in that they're going millions of miles away to a rock with no air where they'll have to manage to survive without any realistic expectation of support within the next few years. At least on Earth, you can breathe and there's other people around who you can spread your faith to.

If this was a nationally organized expedition with an extended plan for support of the Mars colony (say, a ship is sent up there with supplies every other month or some such) and with a reasonable expectation of success, then their attitude might be a little different.

They are as aware of the real world as anybody else around them. This is more about their beliefs regarding this specific journey than anything else. And to be frank? I wouldn't go on this trip myself, either. They're basically saying "we don't think this is a good idea," just loading it with a little religious baggage in the process.

[Guardsman Bass]

Well, Mars One is suicidally stupid. It's a publicity stunt, and given the extremely compressed timeframes we're talking about here (technology demonstrator launching in less than four years, permanent settlement ready for occupants in less than nine years from now); if they actually succeed in sending anyone in the general direction to Mars ... the likely outcome is everybody dies in a fiery explosion, or scattered across the Martian landscape within a ten mile radius of the "Mars One Memorial Crater". Or, if by some miracle, they actually survive the trip ... they'll probably all be dead within a Martian year ... probably of radiation poisoning sustained from the trip over, radiation poisoning sustained after landing on Mars, or some critical life support failure that nobody foresaw because they're doing this, pretty much, sight-unseen.

So, I rather suspect that the fatwa isn't against Martian exploration in general, but against Mars One specifically.

I don't get that expedition. They've got to know that there's no way they'll make those planned dates, so are they just delusionally optimistic or flat-out scamming people? Zubrin apparently is on their board, so it's presumably not 100% scam, but still . . .

[Ziggy Stardust]

Maybe the General Authority of Islamic Affairs & Endowments only just saw Europa Report and got scared.

They've got to know that there's no way they'll make those planned dates, so are they just delusionally optimistic or flat-out scamming people? Zubrin apparently is on their board, so it's presumably not 100% scam, but still . . .

My impression that it is a bit of both, or a bit of neither, depending on how you look at it. I think they are at least broadly aware of how unrealistic their timetable is, and it is mostly a marketing technique designed to get attention and increase the chances of attracting the right support/funding to at least make some progress. To that end, I don't think they are "scamming" people in the sense that they are just making off with their money; I think it is just a way to make headlines and get people talking. In that sense, it seems to be working. On the other hand, from what little I've read about them, I think they are overly optimistic about the practicality of the idea, even if they are aware that their supposed timetable is extreme.

[Scrib]

I'm trying to avoid the more crass "stoopid religious people" jokes here. Whatever you think of them, they're charged with protecting the souls of the population, which I suppose if you believe in such things is a pretty important responsibility (certainly, it would be if it were real). If you look beyond that, it suggests that people are telegraphing the belief that this mission is going to go belly up so fast that a fair risk assessment results in a religious prohibition.

I was frankly a bit disappointed by how mundane the reasons for this ban were. I expected some cooler, less practical reason.

As it stands I have less of a problem with it. At best all I would want was some sign that the technical details had been considered rationally and that drawing a line between this and all other dangerous had been done in a sensible way. And given that it's, y'know, Mars, they get some leeway.

Remind me in 2050 if it's still up and we can have a laugh.

[Simon_Jester]

I'm trying to avoid the more crass "stoopid religious people" jokes here. Whatever you think of them, they're charged with protecting the souls of the population, which I suppose if you believe in such things is a pretty important responsibility (certainly, it would be if it were real). If you look beyond that, it suggests that people are telegraphing the belief that this mission is going to go belly up so fast that a fair risk assessment results in a religious prohibition.

You are assuming these people are being rational, even if subconciously, wich they are not. This is a knee jerk reaction to anything that isn't compatible with their world view.

How the hell do you know that? Why should a Muslim have a problem with the idea of living on Mars? What in the Muslim faith would prohibit that?

On the other hand, most actual responsible Muslim scholars do say that being an idiot and getting yourself killed is contrary to the way of life promulgated by Islam.

[Suicide bombers appear to contradict this, but they come from very amped-up fringes of the religion, and usually try to justify it in terms of 'dying in battle' for the sake of their people, a concept which almost all cultures embrace.]

[Scrib]

The more amusing thing about the claims of kneejerk reactions is the kneejerk reaction to any religious person making claims about the changing world in any way. You might be right a lot of- if not most of- the time, but there's a reason the term is generally considered negative.

[Spekio]

How the hell do you know that? Why should a Muslim have a problem with the idea of living on Mars? What in the Muslim faith would prohibit that?

Why do you think they need a reason? If god made the earth for man, it's haran to live elsewhere. There. If some scholar decides this is the case and the other scholars agree, hello fatwa.

People will use their religious texts to jutify ALL points of view, or even radct such texts if need be: i.e. Gay friendly KJB.

On the other hand, most actual responsible Muslim scholars do say that being an idiot and getting yourself killed is contrary to the way of life promulgated by Islam.

[Suicide bombers appear to contradict this, but they come from very amped-up fringes of the religion, and usually try to justify it in terms of 'dying in battle' for the sake of their people, a concept which almost all cultures embrace.]

So? Those same responsible scholars might ask for the death of a person for their sinfull actions. Or geez,decide that if you drink alcohol you will pay in judgement day. Or even that marrying a nine year old is godly.

Pardon me if I remain skeptical there was any expertise or actual technical work in declaring the mission suicidal.

[Broomstick]

How the hell do you know that? Why should a Muslim have a problem with the idea of living on Mars? What in the Muslim faith would prohibit that?

Why do you think they need a reason? If god made the earth for man, it's haran to live elsewhere. There. If some scholar decides this is the case and the other scholars agree, hello fatwa.

Your argument would be more credible if that was actually the basis for the fatwa. It's not. The basis for the fatwa is that it is tantamount to suicide to go on the Mars One mission. It says nothing about possible missions that are more likely to succeed and have survivors regardless of where they are going.

[Spekio]

But how did they decide it would be suicide?

[Tribble]

How hard would it be to determine where Mecca is from the Mars base at any given moment, given that you have two planets with different orbits and rotational periods? Would you calculate it through Mars and/or Earth, or would the calculations have to stay above the surface of both planets?

Also, how would someone determine what time is was to pray? Would you calculate based on an Earth Day, or a Martian Day?

[Borgholio]

How hard would it be to determine where Mecca is from the Mars base at any given moment, given that you have two planets with different orbits and rotational periods? Would you calculate it through Mars and/or Earth, or would the calculations have to stay above the surface of both planets?

Given the distance, just look at the blue speck in the sky and bingo...you're looking in the direction of Mecca.

Also, how would someone determine what time is was to pray? Would you calculate based on an Earth Day, or a Martian Day?

IIRC, it's at sunrise and sunset and a pre-determined number of times in between. Given Mars has a nearly identical day, it should be easy to convert prayer times to Martian time.

[Tribble]

If there's a storm you might have a problem... though I suppose you could use orbiting satellites to help.

[Broomstick]

But how did they decide it would be suicide?

A lot of non-Muslims regard the whole Mars One mission as a suicide mission, and I've even seen speculation that due to interstellar radiation levels they wouldn't even reach Mars alive. Hell, even unmanned probes only have something like a 50/50 chance of successfully landing, getting people all the way there is a long-shot with our present tech.

How hard would it be to determine where Mecca is from the Mars base at any given moment, given that you have two planets with different orbits and rotational periods? Would you calculate it through Mars and/or Earth, or would the calculations have to stay above the surface of both planets?

Also, how would someone determine what time is was to pray? Would you calculate based on an Earth Day, or a Martian Day?

I don't personally know the answer to this, but apparently some Muslim scholars have studied the matter and come up with some sort of rule for Muslims on the current space station, or exploring the Arctic or Antarctic where the normal concepts of day and night don't apply. You could probably find it with some googling.

[Grumman]

I'm trying to avoid the more crass "stoopid religious people" jokes here. Whatever you think of them, they're charged with protecting the souls of the population, which I suppose if you believe in such things is a pretty important responsibility (certainly, it would be if it were real). If you look beyond that, it suggests that people are telegraphing the belief that this mission is going to go belly up so fast that a fair risk assessment results in a religious prohibition.

You are assuming these people are being rational, even if subconciously, wich they are not. This is a knee jerk reaction to anything that isn't compatible with their world view.

They are being rational. Even if you're in favour of colonising Mars, do you really think that letting humanity watch the first Martian colonists beg for rescue that can never come will help your cause?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

But how did they decide it would be suicide?

As I explained several posts ago, Mars One's timeline is exceedingly optimistic. They plan to have a habitat ready for humans to live in about nine years from now. In four years, they're supposed to be landing a technology demonstrator (which will be, essentially, Mars Phoenix Mk. II (which technically makes it Mars Polar Lander Mk. III)) They don't actually have a vehicle that'll get people to the surface of Mars alive (much less one that'll safely deliver their habitat components to Mars in discrete pieces, as opposed to scattered across the landscape.)

It'll probably turn out that the Dutch are totally trolling the world with this mission; but until the gig is officially up, the authors of the fatwa have to take it at face-value.