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http://www.rolereboot.org/culture-and-p ... de-the-bar

Emily Heist Moss wrote:It's a drizzly Friday in Chicago and I'm leaving a bar with my roommate sometime after midnight. We’re on a quest for tacos and we’re discussing the finer points—Should we get pork or beef? From where? How many?—when you decide to make our conversation your business. You’ve been loitering outside the bar with your friends, but you hear the word “taco” and soon you’re in lock step with us, asking us about our "tacos," laughing, hooting back to your friends. We push past—literally shoving you—and continue on our way.

Here are some things you should know about my week: I'm on the phone with my mom on my way to yoga when a guy leans out of a doorway, drags on his cigarette and gestures with his pelvis how much he is enjoying my yoga pants. I'm walking home from the grocery store and a middle-aged guy, maybe high, maybe drunk, yells at me, "Get back here, girl!" I’m waiting for the bus when a carful of bros whips by; one leans out the passenger window, points at the girls waiting at the bus stop and yells, "Yes, Yes, No...Yes!" After work, I'm walking from the train to my apartment and four teenagers are trailing me, discussing my body, guessing measurements; they know I can hear them.

This does beg the question of the reason behind harassment. The harassment is not for the purpose of getting a one-night stand, let alone a relationship. Someone who says to a girl, “Nice titties” or “I wonder how tight your snatch is,” clearly is not looking to hook up (with her at the time at least) , let alone propose marriage.

They just want to embarrass her in public, to feel powerful.

Drunk assholes acting stupid?

Spekio wrote:Drunk assholes acting stupid?

Drunk assholes knowing they can act in a stupid and threatening manner on the street without fear of censure.

Yes, it's a power play. Hence why some women call these incidents "a little rape" although frankly I think that trivializes rape. It's a way of asserting male dominance over the females of the species, which makes it sound like there is more intent in it than there actually is. Male chimps do the same thing more overtly, consistently, and at times more violently. It seems most common and frequent in immature H. sapiens although the fully adult males have been known to exhibit the behavior as well.

Dismissing them as "drunk assholes" ignores that this is a behavior found in completely sober males. Calling it "stupid" ignores that it is also done by intelligent, educated men as well the ignorant (although the intelligent and educated may be more circumspect in when, where, how loud, and to whom they do it).

Note that I am in no way asserting that ALL human men do this, just that it is frequent and common enough that you can't dismiss it as some sort of aberration. For women, it's part of daily life if they go out in public.

Dismissing them as "drunk assholes" ignores that this is a behavior found in completely sober males. Calling it "stupid" ignores that it is also done by intelligent, educated men as well the ignorant (although the intelligent and educated may be more circumspect in when, where, how loud, and to whom they do it).

I meant this case in particular. She mentions he was in front of a bar, for fuck's sake. Stupid also means annoying or irritating; troublesome.

It would be a fascinating (if impossible) experiment if one could make all male sexual interest in females virtually non existent (no whistles, compliments, glances, attempts to impress, etc). Essentially men saw and perceived women like they would any other average male, and women would have to do all and any of the work of pursuing men, whereas sex isn't a viable tool of attraction. How much would society improve?

Spekio wrote:

Dismissing them as "drunk assholes" ignores that this is a behavior found in completely sober males. Calling it "stupid" ignores that it is also done by intelligent, educated men as well the ignorant (although the intelligent and educated may be more circumspect in when, where, how loud, and to whom they do it).

I meant this case in particular. She mentions he was in front of a bar, for fuck's sake. Stupid also means annoying or irritating; troublesome.

This conduct is far from limited to in front of bars or from annoying and/or irritating men. Except, of course, this sort of conduct is inherently annoying and irritating to one degree or another. Hence, don't dismiss it as "they were drunk and annoying" because a lot of men who are sober and otherwise not annoying exhibit the exact same sort of behavior.

Singular Intellect wrote:It would be a fascinating (if impossible) experiment if one could make all male sexual interest in females virtually non existent (no whistles, compliments, glances, attempts to impress, etc). Essentially men saw and perceived women like they would any other average male, and women would have to do all and any of the work of pursuing men, whereas sex isn't a viable tool of attraction. How much would society improve?

How are you defining improve, and why would that accomplish it?

Singular Intellect wrote:It would be a fascinating (if impossible) experiment if one could make all male sexual interest in females virtually non existent (no whistles, compliments, glances, attempts to impress, etc). Essentially men saw and perceived women like they would any other average male, and women would have to do all and any of the work of pursuing men, whereas sex isn't a viable tool of attraction. How much would society improve?

You're assuming that the differences in the way men perceive men and women are to do with sex, as opposed to being a form of power projection. You can't just make that go away by removing male sexual interest (after all, a lack of sexual interest doesn't stop straight white men from harassing black men or homosexual men), and by trying to reduce it to something as simple as sexual attraction, you're just diminishing the full extent of the problem.

Broomstick wrote: This conduct is far from limited to in front of bars or from annoying and/or irritating men. Except, of course, this sort of conduct is inherently annoying and irritating to one degree or another. Hence, don't dismiss it as "they were drunk and annoying" because a lot of men who are sober and otherwise not annoying exhibit the exact same sort of behavior.

Not saying any of those things. amigocabal asked why did this particular harassment happened. My response: Assholes + alchohol - inhibitions = obnoxiousness.

Spekio wrote:

Broomstick wrote: This conduct is far from limited to in front of bars or from annoying and/or irritating men. Except, of course, this sort of conduct is inherently annoying and irritating to one degree or another. Hence, don't dismiss it as "they were drunk and annoying" because a lot of men who are sober and otherwise not annoying exhibit the exact same sort of behavior.

Not saying any of those things. amigocabal asked why did this particular harassment happened. My response: Assholes + alchohol - inhibitions = obnoxiousness.

1) Amigocabal asked why harassment in general happened, not this particular instance.
2) After opening with the tale about harassment coming out of the bar, the quoted part of the article in the OP then goes on to talk about other instances of sexual harassment that she endures during the week, which clearly aren't all the result of drunkenness.
3) Dismissing them as drunken arseholes is a completely useless statement, as we all know that: the purpose of this discussion is clearly to address what social factors exist that enable such public displays of dickish behaviour.

I read the full article, but apparently misuderstood what was being asked by the op. Conceeded then.

Broomstick wrote:Yes, it's a power play. Hence why some women call these incidents "a little rape" although frankly I think that trivializes rape. It's a way of asserting male dominance over the females of the species, which makes it sound like there is more intent in it than there actually is. Male chimps do the same thing more overtly, consistently, and at times more violently. It seems most common and frequent in immature H. sapiens although the fully adult males have been known to exhibit the behavior as well.

I've observed that machismo guys will do this to either gender when vying for pack status. In the case of either men or women, bullies will make sexually submissive remarks and comments intended to make them feel like they are property. the difference being that when it happens in a locker room between boys, the group response they're looking for is to laugh it off or give as good as you get, presumably to show that you're tough enough to be part of their pack. And then gang up on any males who show submissiveness or weakness.

Sure, I can see that. Of course, such packs do not normally accept any female as a member, no matter how tough. Indeed, ganging up on females can act as a bonding exercise for such groups.

I prefer Jerry Seinfeld's theory on the subject.

I think we are ignoring the possibility that some men think these 'compliments' might actually work.

spaceviking wrote:I think we are ignoring the possibility that some men think these 'compliments' might actually work.

I think it is also being ignored that many women actually like that kind of attention. Just obviously not at all times, places or situations.

Others may wish correct me, but I've always gotten the impression most women generally want to be considered sexually attractive, desirable and pursuable.

Singular Intellect wrote:I think it is also being ignored that many women actually like that kind of attention. Just obviously not at all times, places or situations.

Others may wish correct me, but I've always gotten the impression most women generally want to be considered sexually attractive, desirable and pursuable.

Sure, most people do. But harassment like what they're talking about is generally more threatening and scary than anything else. I mean would you like it if random guys came up to you, grabbed their crotch and shouted, "COME ON, SUCK IT BITCH, SUCK IT!"?

Singular Intellect wrote:

spaceviking wrote:I think we are ignoring the possibility that some men think these 'compliments' might actually work.

I think it is also being ignored that many women actually like that kind of attention. Just obviously not at all times, places or situations.

Who? Seriously, you've met women who want to be cat-called from the moment they leave their door in the morning until they get home at night? They want comments about their body, their clothes, speculation on their sexual habits and availability while riding a subway car or a bus where there is nowhere to go to get away from it? Regardless of what they're doing and what they're wearing? Because I haven't met any such women.

Others may wish correct me, but I've always gotten the impression most women generally want to be considered sexually attractive, desirable and pursuable.

When I am doing my grocery shopping, laundry, getting my car fixed, or otherwise going about daily chores no, I actually don't want men actively pursing me or making me an object of their sexual needs, wants and desires. Yes, I want to be seen as attractive, desirable, and pursuable - that does NOT mean I want that sort of attention 24/7 under all circumstances. I don't want to be constantly pursued without a moment's respite.

Sure, an individual man will say "Well, I don't did it that one time. I'm not doing it constantly." Sure, he's not - the problem is the sheer number of men a woman encounters during the course of a day. If only one out of ten engages in this behavior it may well be that, from the women's point of view, the attention is unrelenting throughout the day.

Ralin wrote:Sure, most people do. But harassment like what they're talking about is generally more threatening and scary than anything else. I mean would you like it if random guys came up to you, grabbed their crotch and shouted, "COME ON, SUCK IT BITCH, SUCK IT!"?

The thing is, in western society for a long time a man so approached by another man could theorectically get away with murder using the "gay panic" defense. A woman complaining about such attention, however, was either told she was over-sensitive and over-reacting or accused of inviting it simply by being female.

No double-standard there....

Broomstick wrote:

Ralin wrote:Sure, most people do. But harassment like what they're talking about is generally more threatening and scary than anything else. I mean would you like it if random guys came up to you, grabbed their crotch and shouted, "COME ON, SUCK IT BITCH, SUCK IT!"?

The thing is, in western society for a long time a man so approached by another man could theorectically get away with murder using the "gay panic" defense. A woman complaining about such attention, however, was either told she was over-sensitive and over-reacting or accused of inviting it simply by being female.

No double-standard there....

Who is it that tells women that they are "over-sensitive and over-reacting or accused of inviting it simply by being female" if men behaved as you describe?

Singular Intellect wrote:

spaceviking wrote:I think we are ignoring the possibility that some men think these 'compliments' might actually work.

I think it is also being ignored that many women actually like that kind of attention. Just obviously not at all times, places or situations.

Others may wish correct me, but I've always gotten the impression most women generally want to be considered sexually attractive, desirable and pursuable.

Yes, Broomstick saying it's about asserting power is a good and fair generalisation, as long as we remember it's a generalisation. There's going to be some guy who thinks it's complimentary, or just meant some harmless, light-hearted fun.
There's also going to be women who do enjoy that kind of behaviour. Just as there's women who believe that their partner hitting them shows how much he loves them, and people who believe that the tin-foil hat keeps out the alien mind-rays. There's always somebody. But such a low percentage they can be safely ignored for any rational discussion.

Thinking about it, the percentage of men thinking it's just harmless fun maybe can't be dismissed as insignificant. It's always harder to realise the hurt being caused when you're the one causing it.

And as for women wanting to be considered attractive, etc, well, yes. No-one wants to put in months of exercise and diet, hundreds on a dress, hours on make-up, and then not be looked at and admired. Be quite insulting, I'd imagine. But admired with respect, and respectful of her personal space. This isn't stuff that really should have to be explained. As a guideline, if a woman has gone to some trouble a stranger saying a friendly "Damn, you're looking good, girl!" is probably fine. Following up with "Pull those puppies out and give them a bit of air!" has gone a bit too far.

amigocabal wrote:Who is it that tells women that they are "over-sensitive and over-reacting or accused of inviting it simply by being female" if men behaved as you describe?

As a general rule, other men.

On another message board I frequent I could point to several threads where a woman complains about sexual harassment and gets that exact treatment, always from male posters, often the same male posters over and over. But I don't really feel like revisiting those threads. That's aside from the numerous real-life instances I've either witnessed or been the target of.

Just as there are men who engage in this sort of behavior as a power play there are other men who down-play whenever a woman protests, and there is considerable overlap between the two.

amigocabal wrote:Who is it that tells women that they are "over-sensitive and over-reacting or accused of inviting it simply by being female" if men behaved as you describe?

A lot of men. And sometimes other women. There's a very common view that sexual harassment is just a side-effect of being very attractive, just like dealing with the paparazzi is a side-effect of being famous. The advantages of being attractive/famous far outweigh the disadvantage of sexual harassment/paparazzi, so stop complaining. I mean, this is not an uncommon view at all. I almost can't believe you've never encountered it. They think, "Well, if she spends time every morning doing her hair and makeup, obviously she's made a conscious decision that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. So it was her choice." This is a popular view especially among men who aren't very successful with women and think, "Man it must be great to be too desirable; why is she complaining? She must be bragging or just over-sensitive."

Part of what turns these things from an innocent compliment to harassment is the way in which some men seem to think that finding you attractive gives them the right to treat you however they feel like, and the woman must be flattered, cause after all they're giving her a compliment, right? I have literally had a guy respond to me telling him to stop flirting with me with, "But your body really, really turns me on." And then trying to flirt with me again ten minutes later.

Now, it's pretty rare to run into that level of entitlement, but pretty much any uninvited compliment falls along that continuum somewhere: because the guy giving you the "compliment" seems to have this idea that because he finds a woman attractive, he is therefore entitled to her time. Even if a guy gives a woman what he thinks is a "compliment", she has every right to find it annoying (because she has other shit to do, yo), boring (because he's the tenth guy to compliment her today, and he's not even creative about it) or belittling (because she's right there reading the Odyssey in the original Greek, and "you're pretty" is the best compliment he can think of).