NFL 2011

[Havok]

There you go Fanboy.

I actually should amend that list to include the down field blocking for all those teams.

Every single one of them has a home run hitter: Foster, Johnson, Gore, Mathews and Rice.
AND with the exception of San Diego, they all have either a strong Head Coach personality or a strong locker room that would keep any silliness in check. Especially the Ravens and 49ers.
Although as you said, and I completely agree with, TO has been exemplary in his behavior since leaving Philly. Really, that was his only problem. Anything perceived in SF was all done already on his way out on a team that was imploding with or without him. There were no issues in Dallas, Buffalo or Cincy outside of his personal antics, but no "locker room destroying" that people are always harping on.

[HeadCreeps]

Palmer and TO had some issues last year. Palmer often thought TO would run one route while it turned out TO would run another, leading to interceptions or just questions of why Palmer threw the ball straight into the defenders with no receivers around. I'm not going to blame one player or the other.

Supposedly Palmer is whatever you call a QB who throws the ball based on where the receivers are supposed to be rather than throwing it based on where the receivers are. So until he knows the Raiders' system inside and out, he's going to be throwing picks or incompletions. Supposedly. He seems to work better with WRs with low attitude, but then again he keeps wanting to bring in WRs with known attitudes like TO or Housh. Bringing in Houshmandzadeh could be because the Raiders' WRs aren't all that great, but it could also be because Palmer isn't yet comfortable with the system and needs a WR he's used to. His old OC was Bratkowski, a guy that Mike Brown just kept around because "he's a nice guy", even though his playcalling was awful. Palmer probably did not benefit from having a shitty OC all those years. You can see this in Ochocinco's struggling to learn the Patriots' system. Or I could be full of crap.

[Thanas]

Close your eyes Thanas: Baltimore. Boldin needs help. Smith is good, but he isn't there yet and the Ravens are primed to win NOW. This defense just can't keep playing at this level much longer, nor can they fight of age. Owens gives a target that is still faster than Boldin, but has a size of a small tight end, which is where Flacco is seriously missing Heap. Again, great down field blocker for Rice and Williams.

No. First of all, he cannot stand Baltimore, as evidenced when we traded for him and he refused to honor the trade.

Second, he does not fit a need. We need speed threats to compliment Boldin and seeing as how often we play with a 2 TE set at least one of the two WRs has to be a deep speed threat. Otherwise, we just have Boldin and Mason 2.0, which does not work (as evidenced last season when none of the defences we played kept people very deep because there was no speed threat).

Third, We already got Lee Evans, who will be the veteran speed threat when he comes back, which should be either this or next week.

Fourth, we have just one empty rooster spot. I doubt it will be filled with anybody but a LB, seeing as how we have lost close to half our LB corps to injury right now.

Fifth: No way do we need a diva in the locker rooom. Especially not one that will demand getting the ball and which is not in proven football shape.

Sixth: We already got two great young TEs which are more than capable of replacing Heap and did so very well in the last games.

Seventh: We got less than 2 mil cap space and may need it if another LB goes down and we have to spend money in free ageny.


Maybe we would sign TO to the practice squad and see how it goes from there. If he wants a spot, he would have to earn it.

[Tsyroc]

Isn't TO still available?

Palmer worked with him before right?

Yup. And threw him the ball more than Ocho Cinco, and TO had 72 catches for 983 yards and 9 TDs. I guess those are stats to wink about.

That sounds like he did pretty well last year. I was mostly winking due to his supposed disruptiveness, but more because the last article I read about him made it sound like he really wasn't recovered from his injury when he was doing his media workout trying to get some interest from a team.

If he was clearly healthy he'd have to be a good pickup for some team out there.

[Darth Fanboy]

There you go Fanboy.

I actually should amend that list to include the down field blocking for all those teams.

Every single one of them has a home run hitter: Foster, Johnson, Gore, Mathews and Rice.
AND with the exception of San Diego, they all have either a strong Head Coach personality or a strong locker room that would keep any silliness in check. Especially the Ravens and 49ers.
Although as you said, and I completely agree with, TO has been exemplary in his behavior since leaving Philly. Really, that was his only problem. Anything perceived in SF was all done already on his way out on a team that was imploding with or without him. There were no issues in Dallas, Buffalo or Cincy outside of his personal antics, but no "locker room destroying" that people are always harping on.

I like your analysis , but like Thanas said Baltimore isn't really an option and given the way he departed I don't think the 49ers are either which is a shame because that would probaly be the best fit, but I hadn't thought of Houston and honestly that is a really good idea.

I think San Diego's drama is too much for the team to be able to handle all the media attention that would come from TO, not that it would be TO's fault but the Chargers just seem so fragile if I were a fan I would just want them to lay low and be out of the news except for stuff related to the games themselves.

[Elfdart]

I think San Diego's drama is too much for the team to be able to handle all the media attention that would come from TO, not that it would be TO's fault but the Chargers just seem so fragile if I were a fan I would just want them to lay low and be out of the news except for stuff related to the games themselves.

Too late: The Chargers front office is busy trying to get a local sports radio station to not only stop criticizing the team, but to stop taking phone calls from irate fans.

[Darth Fanboy]

Funny thing is I listen to those guys from time to time and they don't say anything that Charger fans aren't all saying anyways.

[Elfdart]

Funny thing is I listen to those guys from time to time and they don't say anything that Charger fans aren't all saying anyways.

Funnier still that they spent much of the show trying to talk fans into climbing off the ledge and back in the window. None of the sports media in SoCal are as brutal as their counterparts on the East Coast, let alone the savagery of sports media in Dallas/Fort Worth.

[Darth Fanboy]

This is of course true but its not always a bad thing either.

[Master of Ossus]

Every single one of them has a home run hitter: Foster, Johnson, Gore, Mathews and Rice.

This is kind of nitpicking, but much as I love Frank Gore, I don't really consider him a home run hitter like Johnson or Rice. He's just... not... quite fast enough to get away from DB's.

Believe me: I'm not criticizing Gore's game--he's tough as spring steel, gets through holes that would intimidate rabbits, blocks pretty well, and is an absolute nightmare to tackle. By any measure, he's a tremendous RB--the best I've ever seen play in SF. But he's not a threat to break the 80-yard run because over a distance that long, someone's going to be able to catch up with him and trip him up.

[Darth Fanboy]

Maybe i'm just nostlagic but I liked watching Garrison Hearst than Frank Gore.

EDIT:

And although I was very young at the time I can't forget Roger Craig.

[Thanas]

Oh crap. Walt Coleman is officiating that game.

[Havok]

Palmer and TO had some issues last year. Palmer often thought TO would run one route while it turned out TO would run another, leading to interceptions or just questions of why Palmer threw the ball straight into the defenders with no receivers around. I'm not going to blame one player or the other.

This is a product of being in a system for one year. You just don't learn a full system and mesh properly with a QB after one year. It takes a couple and sometimes a few. I don't hold this against either player.

Supposedly Palmer is whatever you call a QB who throws the ball based on where the receivers are supposed to be rather than throwing it based on where the receivers are.

You are talking about a timing West Coast style/Air Coryall style QB vs a find the open receiver Run N Shoot/Spread style QB. Otherwise known as the derogatory "System Quarterback".

So until he knows the Raiders' system inside and out, he's going to be throwing picks or incompletions.

Outside of Manning and Brady, most QBs average around 13-16 INTs a year. INTs are an issue if your D can't overcome them. The Raiders finally have a defense that can overcome INTs.

Supposedly. He seems to work better with WRs with low attitude, but then again he keeps wanting to bring in WRs with known attitudes like TO or Housh. Bringing in Houshmandzadeh could be because the Raiders' WRs aren't all that great, but it could also be because Palmer isn't yet comfortable with the system and needs a WR he's used to. His old OC was Bratkowski, a guy that Mike Brown just kept around because "he's a nice guy", even though his playcalling was awful. Palmer probably did not benefit from having a shitty OC all those years. You can see this in Ochocinco's struggling to learn the Patriots' system. Or I could be full of crap.

Palmer doesn't have an issue with "attitude" WRs, which by the way, is about 90% of the WRs in the league. Housh has been throwing with Palmer the entire offseason, and they played together for 6 years. It is just a knowledge and comfort issue IMO. He is a nice security blanket as you pointed out.

[HeadCreeps]

Looks like I couldn't find the article about it that I meant to reference. There was a write-up about Palmer going into his rookie season about potential flaws in his leadership capabilities based on his Jungian personality type. I'm not just blowing smoke about the whole WR personality thing but I can't find the reference, so I guess that's that.

I'm really hoping the guy succeeds. He's got about as good a setup as he's going to get, so if he's going to succeed anywhere, it'll be with the Raiders. First time in my life I've ever wanted to see that team win. I kind of feel bad for Campbell, though, wasn't he playing real well before the injury?

[Havok]

Close your eyes Thanas: Baltimore. Boldin needs help. Smith is good, but he isn't there yet and the Ravens are primed to win NOW. This defense just can't keep playing at this level much longer, nor can they fight of age. Owens gives a target that is still faster than Boldin, but has a size of a small tight end, which is where Flacco is seriously missing Heap. Again, great down field blocker for Rice and Williams.

No. First of all, he cannot stand Baltimore, as evidenced when we traded for him and he refused to honor the trade.

That trade attempt was NINE years ago. T.O. was in the prime of his career and going to the Ravens, a run first, play defense team with Kyle Boller at QB would have been a complete waste of him as a receiver, and he knew it. Baltimore knew it too but they were desperate to try to validate the Boller pick that was already starting to look bad. He also, had already made the decision to go to Phily. The reason there was the issue with him trying to get out of the Baltimore trade had everything to do with sticking it to the Niners and not much to do with Baltimore, other than aforementioned bad system fit. It came down to legalese over his agent not filing his free agency papers in time. The Niners should have never been able to trade him in the first place.

Second, he does not fit a need. We need speed threats to compliment Boldin and seeing as how often we play with a 2 TE set at least one of the two WRs has to be a deep speed threat. Otherwise, we just have Boldin and Mason 2.0, which does not work (as evidenced last season when none of the defences we played kept people very deep because there was no speed threat).

Never doubt T.O.'s speed. And please... comparing Mason to TO in the terms of talent is ridiculous. Mason has always been a possession receiver, and he was good at it. TO has been an everything receiver and he has been great at it. Even now, TO is a burner compared to Mason and Boldin.

Third, We already got Lee Evans, who will be the veteran speed threat when he comes back, which should be either this or next week.

Buffalo Bills 2009:
Terrell Owens: REC: 55 YRD: 829 TD: 5 LONG: 98 AVG: 15.1
Lee Evans: REC: 44 YRD: 612 TD: 7 LONG: 50 AVG: 13.9

Buffalo Bills 2010:
Lee Evans: 37 578 4 54 15.6

Cincinnati Bengals 2010:
Terrell Owens: 72 983 9 78 13.7

Now, coming off injury, who do you take? With Owens you get a better all around receiver than Evans, someone who is more productive, and you get the strength and physicality that Evans cannot bring to the table.

Fourth, we have just one empty rooster spot. I doubt it will be filled with anybody but a LB, seeing as how we have lost close to half our LB corps to injury right now.

This is a legitimate reason not to bring him in. You have more pressing needs keeping your defense at the top of it's game.

Fifth: No way do we need a diva in the locker rooom. Especially not one that will demand getting the ball and which is not in proven football shape.

As I stated, this locker room and coach can handle whatever diva is left in TO, which is little to none at this point. And as I said about his speed, never doubt TO's football shape. This is a guy that is recognized around the league as one of the most physically prepared and shape players there is. He learned from Jerry Rice how to have his body ready to play.

Sixth: We already got two great young TEs which are more than capable of replacing Heap and did so very well in the last games.

They are good, but they are inexperienced. They aren't going to dominate or carry the offense like Heap did. Owens can still do that.

Seventh: We got less than 2 mil cap space and may need it if another LB goes down and we have to spend money in free ageny.

Also a legitimate reason.

Honestly, if it weren't for T.O.'s less than exemplary past antics, and they are in the past, he would already have had workouts and be signed. He'll be on a team though, like I said, in the next couple of weeks.

Maybe we would sign TO to the practice squad and see how it goes from there. If he wants a spot, he would have to earn it.

He already got offers from the UFL.

Oh yeah...
Chicago. Another legitimate contender that needs wide out help and upgrades. Knox and Hester are blazers, but they don't run the best routes and if you just stay over top of them, you can shut them down. Luckily for the Bears this year, Forte has been keeping the defenses honest.

[Havok]

Looks like I couldn't find the article about it that I meant to reference. There was a write-up about Palmer going into his rookie season about potential flaws in his leadership capabilities based on his Jungian personality type. I'm not just blowing smoke about the whole WR personality thing but I can't find the reference, so I guess that's that.

I know what you are talking about. I read it and dismissed it. This is football, not a classroom. Sports, and especially football, combine all types of different personalities constantly. They have to get along. There is no questioning that. If you don't like it, you don't play.

I'm really hoping the guy succeeds. He's got about as good a setup as he's going to get, so if he's going to succeed anywhere, it'll be with the Raiders. First time in my life I've ever wanted to see that team win. I kind of feel bad for Campbell, though, wasn't he playing real well before the injury?

Palmer will get back in playing shape and he will be good.
Campbell is getting the shaft again. He was playing well. The team was behind him and believed in him. If he had broke his collar bone a week later, he would still be the Raiders #1 QB and we would be suffering through Boller for the next 6 losing weeks with a sprinkling of Pryor thrown in. It's just Campbell's luck.

There is a bummer of an article on ESPN somewhere that talks about his unlucky journey from high school to now as far as on the field goes.

[Havok]

Here it is.

http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/stor ... player-nfl

[Thanas]

That trade attempt was NINE years ago. T.O. was in the prime of his career and going to the Ravens, a run first, play defense team with Kyle Boller at QB would have been a complete waste of him as a receiver, and he knew it. Baltimore knew it too but they were desperate to try to validate the Boller pick that was already starting to look bad. He also, had already made the decision to go to Phily. The reason there was the issue with him trying to get out of the Baltimore trade had everything to do with sticking it to the Niners and not much to do with Baltimore, other than aforementioned bad system fit. It came down to legalese over his agent not filing his free agency papers in time. The Niners should have never been able to trade him in the first place.

And three guesses at how much the Baltimore organization appreciated being jerked around. We now got Ozzie who does not appreciate players not honoring trades etc, nor does he appreciate attitude problems.

Second, he does not fit a need. We need speed threats to compliment Boldin and seeing as how often we play with a 2 TE set at least one of the two WRs has to be a deep speed threat. Otherwise, we just have Boldin and Mason 2.0, which does not work (as evidenced last season when none of the defences we played kept people very deep because there was no speed threat).

Never doubt T.O.'s speed. And please... comparing Mason to TO in the terms of talent is ridiculous. Mason has always been a possession receiver, and he was good at it. TO has been an everything receiver and he has been great at it. Even now, TO is a burner compared to Mason and Boldin.

Way to miss the point, Hav. Comparing him to Q is nonsensical because TO will not take the #1 spot. There is no way we make such a large change before the season is over. He would be #2 at best, most likely #3. He cannot be #2 because he lacks the speed we require at that position (plus, he was limping at his own workout). You cannot tell me he runs faster than Smith right now. Another medium receiver is not what we need and is not required.

Now, coming off injury, who do you take? With Owens you get a better all around receiver than Evans, someone who is more productive, and you get the strength and physicality that Evans cannot bring to the table.

You still take Evans, because he is the better speedster. It does not matter if TO is better in every other aspect (something I will not concede). Evans and Flacco have better chemistry, there are no issues there etc. We already got a great possession receiver in Q, we do not need Owens for that. So unless TO can beat the speed of Smith and Evans, or be a better route-runner, ball fighter and is more familiar with our offense than Q is right now, he'll stay put.

We need our #2 receiver to pull dbs back to open up crossing routes for the TEs or to go for the very deep ball. Evans and Smith can do that a lot better than TO can at this moment. If we do not succeed in that we got last year all over again.

Besides, you do not sideline your young talent in favor of an aging receiver who has not taken a single independent physical.

As I stated, this locker room and coach can handle whatever diva is left in TO, which is little to none at this point. And as I said about his speed, never doubt TO's football shape. This is a guy that is recognized around the league as one of the most physically prepared and shape players there is. He learned from Jerry Rice how to have his body ready to play.

If the Rams passed on him, that tells you something. The rams were way more desperate for WRs than Baltimore and the Rams found no use for him. Besides, TO was not doing a full NFL workout at his PR stunt workout. What happens when Polomalu hits him hard at his knee? Playing in the AFC North is pretty physical and I doubt he can keep up with that anymore.

Sixth: We already got two great young TEs which are more than capable of replacing Heap and did so very well in the last games.

They are good, but they are inexperienced. They aren't going to dominate or carry the offense like Heap did. Owens can still do that.

Please. You need to give them playing time now or they will never get it. Heap dominated because we went a lot to him when our old and slow receivers (sound familiar) could not get open. This is not what we want. Heap also was injury prone and we have his replacements at the ready now.

Honestly, if it weren't for T.O.'s less than exemplary past antics, and they are in the past, he would already have had workouts and be signed. He'll be on a team though, like I said, in the next couple of weeks.

You don't take the risk of signing a potential cancer in the locker room (and don't give me that he's changed stuff...yeah, he's changed until the next blowup), who does not know the offense and insert him into the starting lineup of a playoff team. I never want to see Flacco having to grab his receivers to tell them to STFU and quit complaining about not getting balls again. Which is what will most likely happen.

But more seriously, we are pretty loaded with WR talent right now anyway, so why waste a roster spot on him? (Especially as we signed an OLB today to replace Burgess).

He already got offers from the UFL.

And that most likely is where he belongs at this point in his career.

[Thanas]

Oh man. Not only will Steeler fan Walt Coleman be officiating the game, there is a chance Ngata might be out.

Goddamn it.

[Elfdart]

The only way I could see Owens in Baltimore is if the Ravens lose both starters. When receiver-starved teams like Tennessee won't touch you, you're just not wanted.

[Darth Fanboy]

The Titans are just gun shy after having to put up with Randy Moss, Vince Young, and Pacman Jones. If they were smart they would realize that Owens has an unfair rap and pick him up.

[GuppyShark]

There's a lot of insightful football commentators in this thread so I'd like to ask you all a question.

What is the drawback of the no-huddle attack?

It seems to help a lot of teams in a lot of situations since it tires out the defence, forces the defensive playcalling to be more generic, limits them substituting in players, etc.

The Falcons and Lions come to mind as teams that excel in no-huddle and can struggle at other times, for whatever reason, and I'm sure there's tons more.

What are the limitations that prevent this being used more often? Is there a limit to the number of plays that can be learned and audibled to? Is it more tiring on the offensive personnel than the defensive?

[Elfdart]

There's a lot of insightful football commentators in this thread so I'd like to ask you all a question.

What is the drawback of the no-huddle attack?

It seems to help a lot of teams in a lot of situations since it tires out the defence, forces the defensive playcalling to be more generic, limits them substituting in players, etc.

The Falcons and Lions come to mind as teams that excel in no-huddle and can struggle at other times, for whatever reason, and I'm sure there's tons more.

What are the limitations that prevent this being used more often? Is there a limit to the number of plays that can be learned and audibled to? Is it more tiring on the offensive personnel than the defensive?

There are two main reasons it's not used more often:

1) Teams that aren't very good handling regular offense are more likely to screw up if they don't huddle and get the play from the sidelines.

2) Many O-linemen aren't disciplined enough to keep in their stance for prolonged periods, and if they're not in their stance, the defense is allowed to substitute (nowadays the umpire or side judge will stand over the ball to prevent it being snapped). If you use hurry-up mode (not only going sans huddle) you're not doing one of the most important things an offense does: keeping the other team's offense off the field.

For the textbook example of the no-huddle offense backfiring, check out the SB between the Bills and Giants, where the Bills only had the ball for something like 20 minutes.

[Darth Fanboy]

No time to set and prepare your plays and no time for anyone to really communicate thoroughly if they notice something that could be exploited. There is also the greater need for discipline so that hasty mistakes aren't made, and also there is little to no time to change personnel. Coaches get criticized if they lose close games and have time outs left over, and there is a reason why time outs are called and balls are spiked when none are availiable. In order to use a full playbook with the variety required to be an elite team at the highest levels of college and professional football it does occaisionally require taking some time. There is also such a thing as scoring too fast in some situations.

Limitations involved could be a number of things including crowd noise, how many audibles a team is capable of running effectively*, how athletic the offense is versus the defense. A no huddle also requires a lot of rhythm and constant motion which can be disrupted by anything like a penalty or incomplete pass which makes it even more difficult to sustain for long periods of time.

(*which falls a lot on the QB, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady aren't just good, they are also damn smart and that sets them apart just as much as their physical ability)

[Thanas]

I'd also add that you need a lot of veteran presence to pull this off and know the playbook. It can also easily backfire against good defences.