If a policeman attacks you for no reason (RAR!)

[PeZook]

Good luck getting anyone to join the force then, though. Why would anyone risk life imprisonment in exchange for pitiful pay in a dangerous line of work? False convictions do happen, you know...

[Shroom Man 777]

You could make up for it by giving them ridiculously high salaries and tax benefits?

[Stofsk]

Having unequal punishments is no better than having no punishment at all. You either have equality before the law, for everybody, or you don't.

[Stark]

Turns out when you have a self-policing group with legal power they protect themselves? If people see the police as just another bunch of heavies on the street, whose fault is that? The kind of paranoia and brutality you hear about in America is largely unknown in other countries.

And for what its worth, there's no fucking way I'd ever be a cop. It -is- a shit job with shit pay in a shit environment. But then I'd never be a teacher either.

[Tyralak]

[quote="Kamakazie Sith"]
If you wanted to talk about civilian distrust of police then you should have just talked about that instead of implying that handcuffs are brutal.
[quote]

By definition, police ARE civilians. In fact, in the US they have to be. Posse Comitatus precludes the military from conducting domestic law enforcement under all but extraordinary circumstances.

[Kamakazie Sith]

By definition, police ARE civilians. In fact, in the US they have to be. Posse Comitatus precludes the military from conducting domestic law enforcement under all but extraordinary circumstances.

Under the strict definition of the word. However, the word civilian is also heavily used by police and media when describing police/citizen events. With that in mind; what does that have to do with this thread?

[Kamakazie Sith]

And for what its worth, there's no fucking way I'd ever be a cop. It -is- a shit job with shit pay in a shit environment. But then I'd never be a teacher either.

Each to their own. I've worked in quite a few different career fields and being a cop is by far the most enjoyable and rewarding.

[Tyralak]

Under the strict definition of the word. However, the word civilian is also heavily used by police and media when describing police/citizen events.

Common, yes. But highly inaccurate.

With that in mind; what does that have to do with this thread?

It's a pet peeve of mine, and I enjoy nitpicking.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

I have to laugh simply because I've gotten the "you match a description" bit about 5 or 6 times (love being black in america).

I guess that would depend on the demographics of your area just because you got it 5 or 6 times doesn't meet that you didn't actually meet the description. In my scenario that I gave you the police are receiving the information either from the victim or a witness.

The demographics matter in this way. If the witness/victim describes the suspect as a (insert skin color) male, 5'9, 180lbs wearing a blue tshirt and pants driving a green passenger car, and a police officer sees a green vehicle being driven by a (insert same skin color) male wearing a blue shirt in the area within a reasonable amount of time then a felony stop will most likely be conducted if a weapon was used.

The demongraphics matter because even if the police officer spots this man in an area that is mostly white, or whatever skin color the description happens to be, it is still reasonable to conduct the stop based on the description. The threat of force is dictated by the information the officers have.

O I know. I still think it's very funny either way.

But seriously if a cop wished to conduct a felony stop, calmly explained why he was stopping me and asked to search my vehicle I would comply. Pat me down sure. I've got my ID on me and my CCW. I am not illegally carrying anything. I've done it before. Telling me to go to my knees or cuff me is out of the question.

It isn't up to you to determine what is a reasonable procedure when dealing with the police. That's why police are trained. In my scenario if you matched the description and were stopped you wouldn't know beyond them telling you that you're considered armed and dangerous. I can tell you don't really know what a felony stop is. Felony stops are conducted when there is reason to believe that the occupants are armed and dangerous. In my scenario...the suspect had a gun and shot a 7-11 clerk. A felony stop is conducted in this manner. The occupants are ordered out of the vehicle one by one at gunpoint and told to walk backwards to the stopping officers. They are then ordered onto their knees or stomach, depending on the situation, and then handcuffed. Then after that is completed they will ask questions.

In other words the officer is not going to approach your vehicle and ask you questions until you, and the other occupants, are in handcuffs. So, I ask you again. You wouldn't comply? What would you do in this situation?

If I was informed that I was considered armed and dangerous I would A) Give up my pistol B) Tell them I didn't have it on me (if in fact I didn't have it on me) and show them necessary documentation. I have never seen or heard of cops approaching a suspected vehicle weapons at the high ready on the chance that the person is a felon. We don't do that in sector where we expect the persons who have been stopped are trying to kill us. Low ready 5's and 25's then approach the vehicle. If that is in fact how a felony stop is done then would most assuredly act more aggressively. I don't do well with people pointing weapons at me for no reason.

If he's not conducting an arrest and I'm not exhibiting any aggressive behavior then there is no reason to detain me. A quick run of my record will show a few parking and speeding violations. I've allowed myself to be cuffed once before and when after when I learned that wasn't necessary I'm not going to allow it to happen again. He doesn't need to detain me for any reason if it's a simple search and I'm complying. My record is clean I have no warrants. Any thing he comes up with I am going to know is bullshit.

Again, it isn't up to you to determine if cuffing is appropriate. That's why we have courts. It is absolutely stupid of you to refuse to comply, and you will be charged even if you aren't the guy if it is found that the officers gave you those orders lawfully...in other words they were given reasonably due to the information that the officers had.

They can charge me, arrest me, and then release me for not being the guy because they have no evidence. Afterward they can be sued for wrongful arrest. This of course is all assuming I'm not the man committing the crime.

[Werrf]

They can charge me, arrest me, and then release me for not being the guy because they have no evidence. Afterward they can be sued for wrongful arrest. This of course is all assuming I'm not the man committing the crime.

Except that a) you wouldn't be released, b) they would have evidence, and c) the arrest wouldn't be wrongful. You wouldn't be being arrested for whatever crime the original felon was suspected of, you'd be arrested for failing to comply with police instructions (I don't know the formal term).

In other words, you do not have the lawful right to refuse to be handcuffed. The correct procedure, if you feel that the handcuffing was wrong, is not to rant and rail at the police at the time. Certainly the correct procedure is NOT to forcibly resist handcuffing. If you feel it was wrong, you accept the brief indignity, then file a complaint.

[Kamakazie Sith]

If I was informed that I was considered armed and dangerous I would A) Give up my pistol B) Tell them I didn't have it on me (if in fact I didn't have it on me) and show them necessary documentation.

You aren't understanding the scenario I've layed out before you very well. You, your vehicle, or both match the description of a suspect in a shooting. You've been stopped close to the scene and within a very short time frame from when the shooting occurred.

A felony stop is conducted at 50 ft at gunpoint and usually by loud speaker. You are given commands which go like this from the moment you're pulled over.

----------------------------------------------
Occupants of the vehicle put your hands up and touch the ceiling of the car. You are considered armed and dangerous. Any action that you take without being instructed will be dealt with appropriately.

Driver of the vehicle. With your left hand and your left hand only. Roll down your window. Do it now. With your left hand remove the keys from the ignition and set them on the roof of your car. Do it now. With your left hand reach outside the car and open your door and then push it open with your left foot. Keep your hands up. Do it now. Exit the vehicle. Keep your hands up. Turn around. Keep turning until you turn completely around. Do it now. Turn around and face away from me. Do it now. Keep your hands up. Walk backwards towards the sound of my voice. (Once behind the front tires of the vehicles you will be ordered to your knees and then handcuffed and taken to the rear).

Any attempts by you to explain the situation will be ignored and the instructions repeated until you comply. If you continue to ignore those instructions then force will be used to gain compliance. That force can be anything from forced hands on compliance, K9 use, tear gas/OC (pepper spray/gun), or taser.
------------------------------------------------

In short. We don't mess around when we have reason to believe that you are armed and dangerous. There is precendence in the courts of police being ruled justified in shooting unarmed suspects due to their lack of compliance in dangerous situations. While deadly force probably won't be used against you unless you make a quick movement towards your waist the likelyhood of less lethal force is pretty much guaranteed, and again the courts will back the police up every single time when they have cause to believe you are armed and dangerous because you simply match a description.

To review the description is a (insert skin color) (insert basic clothing description) (insert height, and weight) (insert car color and/or make and model

I have never seen or heard of cops approaching a suspected vehicle weapons at the high ready on the chance that the person is a felon.

Again, you aren't paying attention to the scenario. Police make this approach when they suspect a person of being a violent felon which includes the crimes; murder, aggravated assault, robbery, rape, or any crime involving a dangerous weapon such as a knife, gun.

We don't do that in sector where we expect the persons who have been stopped are trying to kill us. Low ready 5's and 25's then approach the vehicle. If that is in fact how a felony stop is done then would most assuredly act more aggressively. I don't do well with people pointing weapons at me for no reason.

There is a reason though. You're just being dense. Just because you don't know what that reason is at the time doesn't mean that there isn't a reason. I've explained this to you twice now. I hope you show understanding in your reply because frankly this isn't rocket science. Furthermore, police don't react well to people acting aggressively which is what you seem to be implying your actions would be if a cop was pointing a weapon at you.

They can charge me, arrest me, and then release me for not being the guy because they have no evidence. Afterward they can be sued for wrongful arrest. This of course is all assuming I'm not the man committing the crime.

How were you wrongfully arrested? The police gave you a lawful command and you ignored it. You being ordered to your knees is not up to you to decide if the police have reason or not. If we have reasonable suspicion that you are armed and dangerous then we will take the necessary precautions, and if you refuse then you will be made to comply. Again, the courts have ruled in favor of police. The law is not on your side. I can tell your experience in these matters is pretty much nil.

People like you are pretty much the reason why I try to post in every police related thread. In your case assuming you're not all talk if you ever do end up in this situation the chances are you'll end up getting hurt, and you will have no recourse because you will be in the wrong.

[Losonti Tokash]

Sith, as an EMT, I'm curious how you guys view us. I've never had to work on a cop but they call us every once in a while. We're usually glad to see you guys but of course there's not exactly much standing around and talking before everyone gets on their way, and around the time I started working is when that one cop chased down and tried to arrest a couple paramedics.

[salm]

@Kamikaze Sith:

I´m curious: How do the police react if the person suspected of being armed and dangerous doesn´t understand the language (for example a tourist)? He obviously won´t understand things as complex as "Take your left hand and remove the key!".

[PeZook]

I wondered about the exact same thing, actually.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Sith, as an EMT, I'm curious how you guys view us. I've never had to work on a cop but they call us every once in a while. We're usually glad to see you guys but of course there's not exactly much standing around and talking before everyone gets on their way, and around the time I started working is when that one cop chased down and tried to arrest a couple paramedics.

I'd say the general view is positive. In my department the general view is we're co-workers working the same enviroment different roll. As long as we respect each others roles then there will never be a problem. It doesn't always go that way...

For example - I was on an assault that just occurred outside a bar. We arrive and begin our investigation. One of the most important and basic steps is identifying the victim. We ask if he has ID, and an off duty EMT who helped out asks us "What does that matter?". Well, it matters quite a bit. If an EMT asks me a question I assume that it is necessary information for him/her to perform their job and I expect the say courtesy. Now that didn't come close to souring my opinion of EMTs, but cops are people and some people are more easily effected by those incidents, but that goes both ways. I'm sure you know of EMTs that do not like cops.

@Kamikaze Sith:

I´m curious: How do the police react if the person suspected of being armed and dangerous doesn´t understand the language (for example a tourist)? He obviously won´t understand things as complex as "Take your left hand and remove the key!".

In this situation I would imagine no weapon has been seen and the occupant has attempted to communicate. I said that we ignore all attempts at communication, but that doesn't mean we don't listen. If some guy speaks to us in a different language then a different method will be considered because the current one won't work.

Keep in mind that I deal with people who pretend to not speak english on a weekly basis, so we're not going to casually stroll up. The most likely course of action would be a contact team would be formed and the driver would be physically extracted from the vehicle. This would probably involve three officers with two on gun and one officer pulling the driver out. It probably wouldn't go beyond guiding physical force (like pulling and directing). As long as this suspect doesn't resist then the force shouldn't go beyond that.

[PeZook]

I was wondering because me and my wife would like to go to America one day, and she doesn't speak English. So what would happen if we ended up in such a situation, I'm out of the vehicle and kneeling down, and tell the cops "She can't understand you?"

I'm asking out of curiosity, and I'll probably never have to actually act on what I learn, but what the heck. Knowledge is half the battle

[Losonti Tokash]

I definitely understand that. we try to help out when we can, as long as it's not in conflict with our primary goal of protecting the patient. Preserving crime scenes and whatnot.

I remember one time the cops called us cause they found a guy lying on the sidewalk in a puddle of blood and they thought he was dead. We rolled him over and his damn car keys fell out the back of his head and he started speaking drunken Spanish to us. We got him in the truck and had a hell of a time identifying him since he didn't speak English and had three different driver's licenses.

Other than that I rarely run into the police (since I'm not an idiot) so I appreciate you taking the time to answer questions.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I was wondering because me and my wife would like to go to America one day, and she doesn't speak English. So what would happen if we ended up in such a situation, I'm out of the vehicle and kneeling down, and tell the cops "She can't understand you?"

I'm asking out of curiosity, and I'll probably never have to actually act on what I learn, but what the heck. Knowledge is half the battle

Yes, you absolutely could say that, but I would add "My wife can't understand you because she doesn't speak english. She speaks Polish) because you never know one of the cops there might speak that language. If she is pulled out first you could translate for her or you could try to yell back. If I were in this situation. I'd slowly open my door and exit while facing away from them with my hands up. I would then yell as loud as I could that my wife does not speak english. We train for those kind of instances so they aren't (shouldn't ) going to automatically open fire as long as you don't make any sudden movements towards your waist.

...but yeah you will probably never actually have to use this.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I definitely understand that. we try to help out when we can, as long as it's not in conflict with our primary goal of protecting the patient. Preserving crime scenes and whatnot.

I remember one time the cops called us cause they found a guy lying on the sidewalk in a puddle of blood and they thought he was dead. We rolled him over and his damn car keys fell out the back of his head and he started speaking drunken Spanish to us. We got him in the truck and had a hell of a time identifying him since he didn't speak English and had three different driver's licenses.

Ha. That's technically our job. We're suppose to check people for the fabled "knife in the back".

Other than that I rarely run into the police (since I'm not an idiot) so I appreciate you taking the time to answer questions.

That's the secret. Even if many cases involving real examples of police brutality if the suspect would have complied it probably would have never reached that point. Many people look at police brutality as cops being power hungry. However, after you've been punched in the face or your buddy who was chasing him got injured in the case the human element kicks in. Does that make it acceptable? No. However, it does make it more complicated than racism, being power hungry, and all the other more common allegations of why that cop acted the way he did.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

Let me wrap this up real quick.

Bit about felony stop.

I'm not getting the fuck out my car. Sorry. Use your less than lethal stuff. I'm not leaving my vehicle because someone is telling me to get out. Call me dense, stubborn, or stupid. I ain't doing it. I'm not putting myself in a completely docile posture for shit. Car off, ID out come up if you want to talk to me.

Rest of it kinda follows number one. Real quick though, wtf do you mean by you people? And no I'm not worried about the racial bit.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Let me wrap this up real quick.

Bit about felony stop.

I'm not getting the fuck out my car. Sorry. Use your less than lethal stuff. I'm not leaving my vehicle because someone is telling me to get out. Call me dense, stubborn, or stupid. I ain't doing it. I'm not putting myself in a completely docile posture for shit. Car off, ID out come up if you want to talk to me.

Rest of it kinda follows number one. Real quick though, wtf do you mean by you people? And no I'm not worried about the racial bit.

People like you who think you have a legal right to not do what you're told when dealing with police. You don't. The only thing you can refuse to do is something illegal. However, hey you want to be dragged out of your car by a K9 that's up to you. Enjoy it. It's a good thing that you probably won't ever be in this postion. However, if you are and you don't do as you're told that does make you an idiot. It makes you an idiot because when it is all said and done there's a good chance you'll be hurt and on your way to jail, and when you try to sue the police they will laugh you out of the court room.

I suspect that you're all talk though...

[Tyralak]

While it may be satisfying to say you aren't going to get out of the car, etc. it's not the most effective course of action. The best way of dealing with a situation of abuse under color of authority, is to comply, make DAMN sure you're in the right and you do everything that was asked of you. Then note EVERYTHING that happened, including the names and badge numbers of the cops, and take it up the chain. If you're smart about it, you can get them removed from a position they clearly have no business being in. Possibly get them prosecuted, and you may even be able to secure compensation. In the end, that's far more satisfying than getting in a pissing match.

[Eddie Van Helsing]

I'd consider myself lucky if I managed to hit the alleged cop before he shot me, but I'd rather die fighting than just stand there waiting to be shot.

[Rye]

This scenario seems made for Internet Tough Guy bullshit... and given that this is a board filled with abject cowards, that's really all it is. I can't imagine anyone wouldn't try to the defend themselves or escape, but I also have a tough time believing any of you have the courage to do it. I expect most people on this board would be on the ground, either unconscious or crying like a baby, and wouldn't have a chance to defend themselves.

It's actually a pretty sensible method for dealing with cops in general, though. Most cops aren't going to be THAT dirty, even if they're sadistic in some way.

[Shaun]

If I was to receive the beating described in the OP, I doubt I'd be able to defend myself!

Although I would try and defend myself, if possible, against anyone, if they were going to kill or hurt me.