Old neighbor takes ball that lands in yard, arrested by cops

[Graeme Dice]

The article doesn't say anything about them having previous issues with her though. So, why are the kids spoiled?

They are saying that the kids are spoiled because that's the easiest way to be an internet tough guy.

[Mr Bean]

First off, depending how young the teen-ager was(minimum 12) he could and expect to get away with killing the old bat with a shotgun and only be in jail until 18.

There's this thing called under-age, if your under-age you can only charge people with the same set of crimes that you could as an adult.

For example if we wanted to throw the book at both people in this case we could send the old woman to jail for fives year for petty theft(Max sentance) more likely a year at most, and the teen to two weeks of juvenile hall detention(Much more likely to get a suspended sentance or just CS time).

Second, you do not have any fucking legal right to anything on your lawn just because it ends up there, and third with the kid being under adult age, good frigging luck getting any charges filed, let alone an actual punishment.

So at the end of the day you get to enjoy your year in jail know the kid had to spend two weekends racking leaves at the home of one of your more law-abiding 90 year old's houses.

Good job.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Why not? "Get the fuck off my lawn!"

At that point the kid is guilty of both trespassing and throwing unwanted shit on your private property, and if they willfully disregard the law, so will I and deflate the fucking thing.

A trespass still needs to be officially documented by police.

That's the thing though. They have a right to their property, so they can get it. If you destroy it then you will be cited...

If the parents want to sue me over a stupid ball, I'll counter sue with trespassing, public nuisance and the dumping of garbage on my private property.

LMAO. Good luck with that. I imagine you'd lose...badly.

I agree, but if the issue of the law comes up over something this minor, you can counter it with their own infractions.

No, you can't. Again, you don't automatically get to dictate what happens to someones property just because it lands on yours regardless of the intention.

You realize I'm more playing devil's advocate than actually asserting my own position, right?

No, and you're doing a shitty job.

My overall point is that there is a distinction between the occasional honest mistake of tossing a frisbee or ball into someone's yard, and it happening so much that the guilty kid's parents have a camera on hand to record the next incident proving the old lady was being 'unreasonable' by getting fed up with their behavior.

Actually, unless I'm mistaken other neighbors were recording the police arresting the old lady because they are one of those idiots who feel that the elderly should be allowed to do whatever they want because they're old.

Personally, I doubt I would ever feel the need to go beyond the 'throw their toy as far from them as possible' route if they're seriously beginning to annoy you.

There you go. Though you have to remember that she is an old lady and probably can't throw it very far.

[Knife]

I think you assume to little from this article. It's likely that they did talk with the parents, and we do know they tried to get the old lady to give up the property consequence free.

As for trespassing I listed how that goes. As Bean stated people aren't just automatically trespassed, and furthermore there are exceptions. If your property ends up in someones yard then you have a right to it.

Again you are sidestepping my issue. It is not black and white here. Sure, the old bat taking the ball is theft, the kids (if documented) are tresspassing. The over all problem in this is the police, even after a neighborhood fight, hauling a 90 year old woman to the station over it. IT IS A BREAK DOWN in the diplomatic skills of the Police.

This isn't a black and white fallacy, both parties are right and both are wrong. Only an idiot would assume one OR the other should end up at the damn cop shop.

[Knife]

Yes it is. None of that is a valid reason to steal.

None of that is a valid reason to go ape shit on the little old lady who took the ball. Police are supposed to show digressions. You don't hog tie a non violent offender, nor to you haul a 90 year old lady to jail for holding on to the neighborhood shitheads ball.

[Knife]

The article doesn't say anything about them having previous issues with her though. So, why are the kids spoiled?

They are saying that the kids are spoiled because that's the easiest way to be an internet tough guy.

As opposed to the internet tough guy act of, haul the uppity 90 year old to jail because she's a meanie?

[Kamakazie Sith]

Again you are sidestepping my issue. It is not black and white here. Sure, the old bat taking the ball is theft, the kids (if documented) are tresspassing. The over all problem in this is the police, even after a neighborhood fight, hauling a 90 year old woman to the station over it. IT IS A BREAK DOWN in the diplomatic skills of the Police.

This isn't a black and white fallacy, both parties are right and both are wrong. Only an idiot would assume one OR the other should end up at the damn cop shop.

I'm not sidestepping the issue. I've addressed it several times in this thread. You seem to be of the opinion that this old lady could have been negotiated with, but you have no basis to believe that and you ignore her statements which indicate that it was her way or the highway.

Some people just can't be talked to, and the police don't have all fucking day to sit and try and reason with someone who is clearly guilty of a crime. It's the job of the police to enforce the law, and because she was old she got some special treatment but that special treatment is not infinite.

None of that is a valid reason to go ape shit on the little old lady who took the ball. Police are supposed to show digressions. You don't hog tie a non violent offender, nor to you haul a 90 year old lady to jail for holding on to the neighborhood shitheads ball.

Don't get dramatic on me. They didn't go ape-shit. They took her to jail probably per their department policy for people who refuse to sign a citation which is again her fault unless the consequences of not signing weren't explained to her. Furthermore, she went from one crime to two when she refused to follow a lawfully given order by a peace officer.

[Kamakazie Sith]

The article doesn't say anything about them having previous issues with her though. So, why are the kids spoiled?

They are saying that the kids are spoiled because that's the easiest way to be an internet tough guy.

As opposed to the internet tough guy act of, haul the uppity 90 year old to jail because she's a meanie?

Being mean isn't a crime. Stealing, and failing to follow a lawful order from a police officer are crimes. Why do you feel that age should bring immunity from consequences of breaking the law?

[Knife]

I'm not sidestepping the issue. I've addressed it several times in this thread. You seem to be of the opinion that this old lady could have been negotiated with, but you have no basis to believe that and you ignore her statements which indicate that it was her way or the highway.

And the end result must be jail? You're still sidestepping my point. Why is the logical outcome of this encounter either party A or B goes to jail over such a trivial matter?

Some people just can't be talked to, and the police don't have all fucking day to sit and try and reason with someone who is clearly guilty of a crime.

The nexus of my point. By this logic, multitudes of people should be sent to jail every day for J walking. Littering or other trivial matters, let alone an obvious civil ordeal that needs to be hashed out by the courts, not a cop. I have all sorts of sympathy when some ass hat in a simular situation starts fucking with the police and thus gets sent to jail, but some little old lady who kept an assholes ball? Sorry, no dice.

It's the job of the police to enforce the law, and because she was old she got some special treatment but that special treatment is not infinite.

From personal experience the kid could be taken down to the cop shop to be picked up by the parents too for being an ass. Didn't happen that way. Was the old lady looking for special treatment or equal?

Don't get dramatic on me. They didn't go ape-shit. They took her to jail probably per their department policy for people who refuse to sign a citation which is again her fault unless the consequences of not signing weren't explained to her. Furthermore, she went from one crime to two when she refused to follow a lawfully given order by a peace officer.

Again, I have sympathy for the cops when asshat takes a swing at the cop for citation X. This is purely a case of both being wrong and right and the cop being a dick to the old lady instead of taking time out to solve the problem and/or leaving it to the court.

Being mean isn't a crime. Stealing, and failing to follow a lawful order from a police officer are crimes. Why do you feel that age should bring immunity from consequences of breaking the law?

So is tresspassing and a public nuicensce. Yeah yeah, documentation. Where is that particular notation in the article? If the cop is bothered to find the documentaiton and evidence to the 'theft' why shouldn't we expect equal time on the tresspassing and nucience?

[Havok]

Knife, you seem to be hung up on the fact the the thief in question is an old lady. So fucking what. Being old does not give a free pass to A. Steal, B. Ignore the Law, or C. Ignore the police who are trying to enforce the law. If this was a 35 year old single man you wouldn't be making any kind of issue of this.

[Mr Bean]

So is tresspassing and a public nuicensce. Yeah yeah, documentation. Where is that particular notation in the article? If the cop is bothered to find the documentaiton and evidence to the 'theft' why shouldn't we expect equal time on the tresspassing and nucience?

Age Age AGE AGE
The "kid" is just that knife, an under-age offender of the law. The old lady is over the age of eighteen, the offender is not. By legal law unless you want to try the kid as an adult then the same laws do not apply to both parties

Seriously knife, I've made this point twice, there is a very good chance that the kid is not a "teenager"

*Edit, found some details

Why she was arrested

Tanis’ son is in junior high school(13-15?-Bean). Tanis declined to give his son’s name in order to protect him from unwanted publicity.

“It’s inappropriate that it’s blown up into this big a deal,” he said. “This is turning into nothing but a nightmare.”

Tanis and his wife, Kelly, have five children and have lived in the Blue Ash neighborhood for seven years. Jester has lived there since 1949.

Tanis said his son and some of his cousins and friends were playing football in the street Thursday when the ball landed in Jester’s yard, where she was gardening. He said Jester picked up the football, refused to give it back and told him to call the police.

When police asked Jester to return the ball to the children, she refused. They warned her twice she would be charged if she did not cooperate, Schaffer said. They tried to give her a citation, but she refused to sign for it, he said.

Left with no other choice, he said, officers placed her in the back of a cruiser, took her to the police station and booked her, he said. Schaffer said Jester told police to handcuff her but they refused.

Seriously Knife, he's a kid, she's an adult the same laws do not apply to both of them
That's how we do it in the US unless you charge the kid as an adult.

[Knife]

Knife, you seem to be hung up on the fact the the thief in question is an old lady. So fucking what. Being old does not give a free pass to A. Steal, B. Ignore the Law, or C. Ignore the police who are trying to enforce the law. If this was a 35 year old single man you wouldn't be making any kind of issue of this.

Not really. I'm hung up on the fact that the conclusion of this whole fiasco was the lady going to jail as I would be with a Jay walker or a speedster who didn't go out of their way to punch a cop and scream 'bro'. Nothing in this scenario screamed jail for either party as much as a court date and I'm appalled at the cop who has shit for diplomacy skills.

Cops should be hauling people to jail for being a threat to society or the cops themselves. Not some silly neighborhood dispute that a judge should call. Sure the little old lady was being stubborn, doesn't clear the kid either. Vice versa. Shouldn't be the cop making that call, atleast at the threat of jail. Truely, if anyone went to jail, all should have.

[Knife]

So is tresspassing and a public nuicensce. Yeah yeah, documentation. Where is that particular notation in the article? If the cop is bothered to find the documentaiton and evidence to the 'theft' why shouldn't we expect equal time on the tresspassing and nucience?

Age Age AGE AGE
The "kid" is just that knife, an under-age offender of the law. The old lady is over the age of eighteen, the offender is not. By legal law unless you want to try the kid as an adult then the same laws do not apply to both parties

Seriously knife, I've made this point twice, there is a very good chance that the kid is not a "teenager"

Sweet, as I understand it, parents are responsible then. Why wasn't mom hauled off too?

*Edit, found some details

Why she was arrested

Tanis’ son is in junior high school(13-15?-Bean). Tanis declined to give his son’s name in order to protect him from unwanted publicity.

“It’s inappropriate that it’s blown up into this big a deal,” he said. “This is turning into nothing but a nightmare.”

Tanis and his wife, Kelly, have five children and have lived in the Blue Ash neighborhood for seven years. Jester has lived there since 1949.

Tanis said his son and some of his cousins and friends were playing football in the street Thursday when the ball landed in Jester’s yard, where she was gardening. He said Jester picked up the football, refused to give it back and told him to call the police.

When police asked Jester to return the ball to the children, she refused. They warned her twice she would be charged if she did not cooperate, Schaffer said. They tried to give her a citation, but she refused to sign for it, he said.

Left with no other choice, he said, officers placed her in the back of a cruiser, took her to the police station and booked her, he said. Schaffer said Jester told police to handcuff her but they refused.

Seriously Knife, he's a kid, she's an adult the same laws do not apply to both of them
That's how we do it in the US unless you charge the kid as an adult.

Again, your making my argument out to be something different than it is. Why is the logical outcome of this one party going to jail? Why either of them? Sounds like a civil dispute where neither seem to be in immediate harm. And again, under personal experience, why wasn't the kid taken to the cop shop either. Can't be arrested but can be taken down for 'questioning'. How about Mommy? She is responsible for 13-15 year old, which is a farce. What teenager doesn't understand the concept of 'property' since they are so possesive of their own. WTF?

[Havok]

Knife, you seem to be hung up on the fact the the thief in question is an old lady. So fucking what. Being old does not give a free pass to A. Steal, B. Ignore the Law, or C. Ignore the police who are trying to enforce the law. If this was a 35 year old single man you wouldn't be making any kind of issue of this.

Not really. I'm hung up on the fact that the conclusion of this whole fiasco was the lady going to jail as I would be with a Jay walker or a speedster who didn't go out of their way to punch a cop and scream 'bro'. Nothing in this scenario screamed jail for either party as much as a court date and I'm appalled at the cop who has shit for diplomacy skills.

If the jay walker or speeder refused to sign the ticket then they would get taken to jail. This situation is no different.

Cops should be hauling people to jail for being a threat to society or the cops themselves. Not some silly neighborhood dispute that a judge should call. Sure the little old lady was being stubborn, doesn't clear the kid either. Vice versa. Shouldn't be the cop making that call, atleast at the threat of jail. Truely, if anyone went to jail, all should have.

What the fuck are you talking about? How exactly would the Judge get involved with this if the police didn't book one of the parties in question? And it is exactly the cops call to make... that is their job. AND clear the kid of what?! Making a bad pass?

[Singular Intellect]

Clearly the old woman is guilty of retaining property; as I said, she's guilty of stupidity more than anything. Throw the ball away from the kids, turn on the sprinklers if kids try to get onto her lawn...there should easily be several more intelligent methods of getting the message across to the kids without involving law enforcement or breaking the law.

As others pointed out, there are means to address the problem legally if simple communication and my above mentioned ideas didn't work, assuming the kids and parents are being dicks about it.

[Mr Bean]

Knife your ignoring the point of the story that the cops did not want to haul off EITHER party to jail until the old woman failed to return the ball(Even after she told the kid to call the cops if he liked), and then when the cops got there STILL refused to return it. And she STILL was not being hauled to jail until she broke a second law(By not signing)

What leg do you think your standing on sir?

[Sikon]

It is not generally a smart idea to refuse a cop, right or wrong.

However, most of the responses in this thread are surprising. If she was legally obligated to always return whatever other people threw that trespassed onto her own property, that could lead to all sorts of abuses.

Beyond this incident alone, consider the legal standard being followed. Not all kids aren't brats, and some would throw a ball, rocks, or garbage onto someone else's property countless times if there were no negative consequences. If they were bored enough to do such hundreds of times, would somebody be legally obligated to do cumulatively hours of unpaid labor throwing whatever they tossed back to them every time?

Although I doubt a judge will agree with the policeman responsible for the charge, if she was actually sentenced for this, it would set up a terribly unworkable legal precedent if uniformly applied whenever someone doesn't do unpaid work returning minor objects dumped onto their own property. Yes, it would have been nicer of her to return the ball if this was an isolated incident --uncertain--, and she may or may not be a mean old lady depending upon how much of the full story is told in this article, yet the preceding would be a crazy legal standard.

Fortunately most people in the general populace still have some common sense, for the very absurdity of this story is precisely why it is reaching national news sites.

[RogueIce]

Video, hopefully it'll work

You'll get a bit more details, as well as see the yards in question. Seriously, these are not huge yards. It'd be really easy for an overthrown pass to wind up in her yard. They don't have to be doing it intentionally.

Further Knife, what would you have the cops do? They ask her to give the ball back. She says no. And she even told them to "go ahead and arrest" her. After enough of this, what are they going to do? Just walk away? Diplomacy is all well and good, but if she's going to be obstinate about the police aren't going to hang around all day. Unless you'd rather they take the ball back by force?

It also doesn't say anything about the kids tresspassing. Not in the video and not in the posted articles. So that's just an assumption on several people's parts.

So tell me, what would you have the police do in this particular situation, keeping in mind they (so far as we know) have never been out to deal with this before, so any past incidents are basically he said/she said and whatnot. In this singular instance, where there is no evidence these kids ever went on to her yard, how are they guilty of tresspassing? The ball does belong to the kids, she is refusing to return it even when the police ask her to, and then she tells the police to arrest her because she won't give the ball back. What would you have the police do?

[Knife]

If the jay walker or speeder refused to sign the ticket then they would get taken to jail. This situation is no different.

I'm having problem quantifying the cops time with arresting the lady with refusal to sign the ticket. I'm usually fairly pro-cop but this is crossing a line.

What the fuck are you talking about? How exactly would the Judge get involved with this if the police didn't book one of the parties in question? And it is exactly the cops call to make... that is their job. AND clear the kid of what?! Making a bad pass?

Because it is a civil dispute and neither party is in physical harm. And yes, it is the cops call to make in as far as who and if goes to jail. I think he made a bad call. Neither should have went over this. If granny hauled up and punched five Oh, sure. being stubborn over a fucking rubber ball? No.

Knife your ignoring the point of the story that the cops did not want to haul off EITHER party to jail until the old woman failed to return the ball(Even after she told the kid to call the cops if he liked)

Your ignoring MY point that neither represented anything close to be 'jail' worthy.

and then when the cops got there STILL refused to return it. And she STILL was not being hauled to jail until she broke a second law(By not signing)

What leg do you think your standing on sir?

That none of the above represent a 'jail' situation and rather a cop negotiating with the populace in good faith rather than 'meh can't solve it, off to jail you go' attitude.

[Havok]

So you would rather have the family hire a lawyer, file a suit, forcing the lady to hire a lawyer and then take up the courts time to say give back the ball, instead of calling a police officer,which doesn't cost either party anything, in hopes that they can get the situation resolved in that afternoon. Yeah... that makes WAY more sense.

[Knife]

So you would rather have the family hire a lawyer, file a suit, forcing the lady to hire a lawyer and then take up the courts time to say give back the ball, instead of calling a police officer,which doesn't cost either party anything, in hopes that they can get the situation resolved in that afternoon. Yeah... that makes WAY more sense.

Actually if you want to push the issue, it does. Considering the amount of tax dollars we put into police to keep us safe from actual threats...

[Sikon]

It also doesn't say anything about the kids tresspassing. Not in the video and not in the posted articles. So that's just an assumption on several people's parts.

Trespassing isn't limited to human beings alone. Cattle have been considered to trespass in other legal situations, and even sending an inanimate object onto someone else's property is a trespass. I vaguely recall once hearing of an incident where some hooligans would toss garbage through someone's open window for kicks, with that considered against the law even if they didn't personally step on that private property.

What would you have the police do?

Tell the kids that if they throw anything trespassing onto someone else's private property, that person is not legally obligated to spend their unpaid labor time returning it. Such would be nice of the old lady, if she had the patience to do so however often such occurred, but it should not be her legal obligation.

[Havok]

If the jay walker or speeder refused to sign the ticket then they would get taken to jail. This situation is no different.

I'm having problem quantifying the cops time with arresting the lady with refusal to sign the ticket. I'm usually fairly pro-cop but this is crossing a line.

What the fuck are you talking about? How exactly would the Judge get involved with this if the police didn't book one of the parties in question? And it is exactly the cops call to make... that is their job. AND clear the kid of what?! Making a bad pass?

Because it is a civil dispute and neither party is in physical harm. And yes, it is the cops call to make in as far as who and if goes to jail. I think he made a bad call. Neither should have went over this. If granny hauled up and punched five Oh, sure. being stubborn over a fucking rubber ball? No.

Knife your ignoring the point of the story that the cops did not want to haul off EITHER party to jail until the old woman failed to return the ball(Even after she told the kid to call the cops if he liked)

Your ignoring MY point that neither represented anything close to be 'jail' worthy.

and then when the cops got there STILL refused to return it. And she STILL was not being hauled to jail until she broke a second law(By not signing)

What leg do you think your standing on sir?

That none of the above represent a 'jail' situation and rather a cop negotiating with the populace in good faith rather than 'meh can't solve it, off to jail you go' attitude.

Bullshit.
Perpetrator steals something which does not belong to them. Owners of property call the police. Police arrive on scene. Police ask perp to give item back with no consequences. Perp refuses. Police take perp to jail.
Cut and fucking dry.

[Havok]

So you would rather have the family hire a lawyer, file a suit, forcing the lady to hire a lawyer and then take up the courts time to say give back the ball, instead of calling a police officer,which doesn't cost either party anything, in hopes that they can get the situation resolved in that afternoon. Yeah... that makes WAY more sense.

Actually if you want to push the issue, it does. Considering the amount of tax dollars we put into police to keep us safe from actual threats...

Fine lets push it. The Police are getting paid the same no matter what they do, responding to a burglar alarm, shoplifter, stopping a jay walker etc. The tax dollars are spent.

Also keep in mind that if a more pressing matter came up, the police would leave and go to that, so you aren't talking them of more important matters.

Having two families hire attorneys over this situation and the money that each of them would have to come out of pocket for is the, and your, ridiculous option.

Speaking of shoplifting... do you also advocate that police should just have them give what they stole back and not take them to jail?

[Knife]

Further Knife, what would you have the cops do?

their job which is to protect the citizenary and not haul kids or grandma's to jail for civil disputes. And if they do, do it to all parties involved.

They ask her to give the ball back. She says no. And she even told them to "go ahead and arrest" her. After enough of this, what are they going to do? Just walk away? Diplomacy is all well and good, but if she's going to be obstinate about the police aren't going to hang around all day. Unless you'd rather they take the ball back by force?

This is something that I'm going to have to conceed under duress. Until I have video or transcripts to work with, I just fucking feel something of this sort should never go to jail unless someone takes a swing at the Five Oh.

It also doesn't say anything about the kids tresspassing. Not in the video and not in the posted articles. So that's just an assumption on several people's parts.

As K-sith will reiterate, tresspassing is a matter of documentation rather than a cop pulling over and saying 'hey, you're tresspassing' unless you have a dream team of lawyers.

So tell me, what would you have the police do in this particular situation, keeping in mind they (so far as we know) have never been out to deal with this before, so any past incidents are basically he said/she said and whatnot.

Under personal experience, issue tickets unsigned with a court date to the old lady and a signed or unsigned ticket to mom and leave it to the judge. Or put forth some effort that I suspect but can't prove and there bye conceeded earlier in this post.

In this singular instance, where there is no evidence these kids ever went on to her yard, how are they guilty of tresspassing? The ball does belong to the kids, she is refusing to return it even when the police ask her to, and then she tells the police to arrest her because she won't give the ball back. What would you have the police do?

In my eyes, the failure of the cops to settle the argument and collect the documentation to show as such. You want me to have a bias to the old lady and I think you have a bias to the kid/mom.