Movies where the heroes bother you

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Big Orange
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Post by Big Orange »

Kamakazie Sith wrote: They never made an effort because time was never on their side, and with each person being able to take the form of an agent they had very few options available.
Then why not materialize a 50 cal machine gun and a few LAWs, strapping the machine gun to a stolen news chopper? That would avoid facing all the ground troops in the lobby, intermediate floors, and roof (they would have to fire a LAW at the military gunship on the helipad so they won't be pursued by it).

With The Last Samurai Tom Cruise's character is sympathetic to a elitist warrior caste who's inherited mindset led Imperial Japan to commit unspeakable warcrimes against innocent civilians, to see enemy soldiers surrendering as a sign of weakness and shame, while flying uselessly headlong into insurmountable odds, and sky high fatalities.

I agree with CaptHawkeye on At World's End where pirate scumbags are supposedly the heroes through mosyly lazy writing (they're fighting against the evil faceless East Indian Co., not the likable RN redcoats and honest merchant sailors like they did in the first movie).
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Post by Schuyler Colfax »

Big Orange wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote: They never made an effort because time was never on their side, and with each person being able to take the form of an agent they had very few options available.
Then why not materialize a 50 cal machine gun and a few LAWs, strapping the machine gun to a stolen news chopper? That would avoid facing all the ground troops in the lobby, intermediate floors, and roof (they would have to fire a LAW at the military gunship on the helipad so they won't be pursued by it).
Because then we wouldn't have gotten that awesome action sequence so shut the fuck up already.
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Post by Rye »

Big Orange wrote:Then why not materialize a 50 cal machine gun and a few LAWs, strapping the machine gun to a stolen news chopper? That would avoid facing all the ground troops in the lobby, intermediate floors, and roof (they would have to fire a LAW at the military gunship on the helipad so they won't be pursued by it).
That wouldn't have been as interesting and would not be too memorable. Meanwhile, the lobby scene is one of the most memorable in recent cinema history, so at least as far as choreography and aesthetics go, it was a good choice. To explain the course the creators took is not difficult, it fit with the action story they wanted to show. You might as well ask why gunners on an imperial battleship would let an escape pod pass by when it could contain anything, from death star plans to bioweapons, ultimate killer droids, whatever. It's because the story is motivated by an easy to grasp graphic adventure, rather than anything really complicated.
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Post by Pulp Hero »

But thats the point, I can never really lose myself in that scene, because I always find myself thinking "those poor fucking mooks."

I don't mind movies with faceless henchmen getting mowed down as long as they are either evil or inhuman, but stuff where normal cops get gunned down (aside from movies where the protagonists are supposed to be badguys, ie mobster movies) just kind makes not really get into it. Though that may be the side effect of knowing some cops in real life.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Zuul wrote:Meanwhile, the lobby scene is one of the most memorable in recent cinema history, so at least as far as choreography and aesthetics go, it was a good choice.
Not really. The police are dumbshits.

"Look, a guy is hiding behind a stone column! Lets fire our guns at the column and hope we shoot through it and waste ammo! Throw a grenade over there? Are you crazy?"
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Post by Thanas »

MKSheppard wrote:
Zuul wrote:Meanwhile, the lobby scene is one of the most memorable in recent cinema history, so at least as far as choreography and aesthetics go, it was a good choice.
Not really. The police are dumbshits.

"Look, a guy is hiding behind a stone column! Lets fire our guns at the column and hope we shoot through it and waste ammo! Throw a grenade over there? Are you crazy?"
Uuh...I don't know if you read his post, but he was purely arguing from an aesthetical point, not a tactical one.
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Post by Alex Moon »

Denzel Washington's character from "The Siege". I was more sympathetic to General Devaroux (Bruce Willis).
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Post by Darth Wong »

Thanas wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:
Zuul wrote:Meanwhile, the lobby scene is one of the most memorable in recent cinema history, so at least as far as choreography and aesthetics go, it was a good choice.
Not really. The police are dumbshits.

"Look, a guy is hiding behind a stone column! Lets fire our guns at the column and hope we shoot through it and waste ammo! Throw a grenade over there? Are you crazy?"
Uuh...I don't know if you read his post, but he was purely arguing from an aesthetical point, not a tactical one.
It's hard to separate them. How is it not aesthetically displeasing to see such asinine stupidity as "I'm shooting at her with an automatic weapon, but ... she's doing cartwheels! It's impossible to hit someone who's doing cartwheels!" It isn't the kind of "stupid" where you need to sit down and analyze it; it actually looks stupid. How do you separate that from aesthetics, unless you're so stupid that you actually do need to sit down and analyze it before you se its flaws?
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Post by Stark »

Yeah, sorry, when I saw Matrix in my teens, I found the lobby scene excerably stupid. The cartwheel part Mike mentions is the most glaring - she's evading fire by ROTATING AROUND HER CENTRE OF MASS? Doesn't sound very effective to me.

But hey, this is the same movie where someone who sneaks up on the superfast AI agents of impossible power will then say 'HEY I SNUCK UP ON YOU LOL' before killing them, so it's all flash.
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Post by Stormbringer »

The X-men always bothered me really. As soon as you start thinking about the basic premise they start looking like dicks and hypocrites. I can understand why the mutants = Jews or Gays or [insert minority of choice] here prevented them from really thinking through the analogy. But when you spend three movies protecting humanity from a collection of super-powered psychopaths while saying that people are prejudiced for being afraid of said psychopaths it strains credibility.

The fact that the normal human villains devolve to cartoonish levels of villainy just to make the mutants look less bad really makes them hard to take seriously. And of course makes the heroes look like a bunch of jerkasses.
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Post by Thanas »

Darth Wong wrote:
Thanas wrote:
MKSheppard wrote: Not really. The police are dumbshits.

"Look, a guy is hiding behind a stone column! Lets fire our guns at the column and hope we shoot through it and waste ammo! Throw a grenade over there? Are you crazy?"
Uuh...I don't know if you read his post, but he was purely arguing from an aesthetical point, not a tactical one.
It's hard to separate them. How is it not aesthetically displeasing to see such asinine stupidity as "I'm shooting at her with an automatic weapon, but ... she's doing cartwheels! It's impossible to hit someone who's doing cartwheels!" It isn't the kind of "stupid" where you need to sit down and analyze it; it actually looks stupid. How do you separate that from aesthetics, unless you're so stupid that you actually do need to sit down and analyze it before you se its flaws?
Quite easy - having accepted that the premise of the movie is stupid and that the plot makes no sense at all, it is quite easy to turn off the brain and just look at the visuals. And yes, they do look good. I don't really think anyone sensible can argue that the cartwheel thing wasn't stupid. I did too, I just acknowledged the stupidity, made a millisecond mental shrug and proceeded to watch the movie.

And there is something easthetically pleasing to Carrie-Ann Moss.
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Post by Eleas »

Eragon, The story of a feckless asshole teenager with an entitlement complex the size of Jupiter who's suddenly anointed "Dragon Rider" aka Savior of the Downtrodden by... wait for it... a hot elven damsel in distress! In every single encounter, he's either woefully outmatched but manages to pull out another deus ex machina, or he's slaughtering enemies wholesale by dragon blast. He's like Hayden Christensen in Jumper, only without the wit and charm.

EDIT: So, how is this relevant? Well, it's because while Eragon is presented as a hero, we never actually see him do anything heroic. The movie consists of him being babysat throughout, either by his mentor, his dragon, or his sidekick.
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Post by Anguirus »

I'm not saying that Wesley is virtuous
I'm not saying you're saying it. :)

Fully agreed on Peter Parker in SM3 and the (other) Pirates. And the Matrix stuff despite my irrational love for the wanky stunts the heroes pull while winning at life.
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Post by Junghalli »

CaptHawkeye wrote:Pretty much the whole cast of At World's End. Yes children. The characters wax poetic about the right of "freedom" on the seas. Paticularly the freedom of the pirates on the seas. So they have every reason to defend their freedom right? Ya know. The freedom to steal, the freedom to rape and pillage, the freedom to swindle, lie, and rip people off. The sacred rights of the pirates involve randomaly attacking merchant vessels, ports, and harbors. All to rob them blind and kill their inhabitants.
Seconded. If I'd have been alive in that universe I'd have been rooting for the British all the way. So now if I'm serving on a merchant ship on the high seas I don't have to worry about some murderous thieves killing me so they can steal my cargo, and this is supposed to be a bad thing? Don't even get me started on all those lolworthy "freedom" lines.
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

CaptHawkeye wrote:Pretty much the whole cast of At World's End. Yes children. The characters wax poetic about the right of "freedom" on the seas. Paticularly the freedom of the pirates on the seas. So they have every reason to defend their freedom right? Ya know. The freedom to steal, the freedom to rape and pillage, the freedom to swindle, lie, and rip people off. The sacred rights of the pirates involve randomaly attacking merchant vessels, ports, and harbors. All to rob them blind and kill their inhabitants.
Well, the pirates are pirates, and like mobsters being encircled by the FBI, they are rather concerned about conserving their livelihood. Of course, Will and Elizabeth Turner aren't pirates, they side with the pirates for very piratey reasons though: their agendas demand it, and they don't give a shit about anything else. I don't think the fact that they are grossly immoral is at all relevant, so long as it makes a good story. Which admittedly isn't that much of the case here (I really enjoyed it, but I'm not going to claim it was any good).
Junghalli wrote:If I'd have been alive in that universe I'd have been rooting for the British all the way. So now if I'm serving on a merchant ship on the high seas I don't have to worry about some murderous thieves killing me so they can steal my cargo, and this is supposed to be a bad thing?
If I'd been alive in that universe I would do the same, but since I'm not I just cheer for the pirates, on the grounds that they're more fun.
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Post by Ford Prefect »

Stark wrote:How about Jumper or that ridiculous bullet-bending movie? Aside from the similarities, complete jackasses who go from being complete sad-sack losers to massive powertrips and then have the gall to sneer at normal people? Wankers.

Most protananists in anime movies also fall into this area.
While I enjoyed Wanted in a turn-off-my-brain way, I have to agree that Wesley turned into a massive dick. Hilariously, AKIRA uses the exact same sort of character development for Tetsuo, in the sense that he starts off as a nobody and gets himself some superpowers and turns into a dick. The difference here is that it's fairly intentional in AKIRA, and Tetsuo's cruelty is adequately foreshadowed before he goes batshit, and he's juxtaposed against an actual heroic character.

As for myself, I feel as though I should not actually like John McClane.
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Post by Pulp Hero »

Why McClane?
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Pulp Hero wrote:Why McClane?
I can see having issues with McClane, especially in the later movies. He's somehow enough of a jerk for his wife to divorce him after he saved her life by risking his...twice. His daughter thinks he's a fucking stalker. He's rude to nearly everyone he meets in movie 4 (a HUGE change from movie 1 where he was the most likable character). Basically, McClane as of Live Free is a huge cock that you just really want to be on your side if there just happens to be random gunplay and terrorist plotting afoot.

Plus, one gets the impression that he's the type who'd vote for George Bush or John McCain (hmm, name similarity) because he thinks they'd be good at a barbecue and their opponents aren't "real Americans." :P
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This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
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Post by Big Phil »

Not sure he's really a "villain," but Patrick Dempsey's character in Made of Honor - and pretty much every character just like him in most romantic comedy's - is a first class douchebag. If you don't have the courage to ask a girl out, and just play her friend for years, until she decides to get married, and then you go and ruin her wedding (My Best Friend's Wedding is another one), makes you a douchebag. These kinds of movies only get away with it because the husband or wife of the main characters usually suck. Three Men and a Little Lady was this kind of film too - Tom Selleck is kind of a dick, but his "girlfriend's" fiance is such a douche everyone roots for Tom Selleck.

God these types of films make me want to vomit...
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Post by FOG3 »

Big Orange wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote: They never made an effort because time was never on their side, and with each person being able to take the form of an agent they had very few options available.
Then why not materialize a 50 cal machine gun and a few LAWs, strapping the machine gun to a stolen news chopper? That would avoid facing all the ground troops in the lobby, intermediate floors, and roof (they would have to fire a LAW at the military gunship on the helipad so they won't be pursued by it).
Might as well just make it a Cobra gunship at that point. Not that that'd be a bad thing.

*WHOP WHOP WHOP*

"Hey what's that sound?"

*TOWs slam into anything worth trying it with, and the 20mm is used to hose down the rest.*

Plus the rent-a-cop types would probably be encouraged to keep their heads down anyway with that kind of firepower hovering around.
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Post by PainRack »

Alex Moon wrote:Denzel Washington's character from "The Siege". I was more sympathetic to General Devaroux (Bruce Willis).
??!?!?!?! So.... you agree with suspending civil liberties and torture?

Granted, Bruce did say that if you ask the military to go in, this IS what we will do and this WILL be the consequences. But then again, he still did it.

Anguirus wrote:
Pulp Hero wrote:Why McClane?
I can see having issues with McClane, especially in the later movies. He's somehow enough of a jerk for his wife to divorce him after he saved her life by risking his...twice. His daughter thinks he's a fucking stalker. He's rude to nearly everyone he meets in movie 4 (a HUGE change from movie 1 where he was the most likable character). Basically, McClane as of Live Free is a huge cock that you just really want to be on your side if there just happens to be random gunplay and terrorist plotting afoot.

Plus, one gets the impression that he's the type who'd vote for George Bush or John McCain (hmm, name similarity) because he thinks they'd be good at a barbecue and their opponents aren't "real Americans." :P
Doesn't that just show how "average" he is, and the shit he been through?
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Post by Big Phil »

Oh yeah, and a movie where the "heroes" pissed me off: Memphis Belle

"Let's fly over the target three times to make sure we don't hit civilians, dropping iron bombs from 30,000 feet!" Fucking douchebag
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Post by Anguirus »

Doesn't that just show how "average" he is, and the shit he been through?
I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying I can see why Ford Prefect would dislike McClane. Though if he doesn't like McClane in Die Hard 1 then your guess is as good as mine, he's a bit short with his wife but that's the worst thing he really does.
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This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
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Post by Jim Raynor »

Peter Parker in Spiderman 3. He just comes off as a massive douchebag throughout the entire film, regardless of the symbiote, and frankly the single most sympathetic character in the whole movie was the Sandman, who was supposedly the villain.
Speaking as someone who liked the first two Spider-Man movies a lot, I have to say that Spider-Man 3 sucked ass. SM2 went to extreme lengths to show how depressed Peter was because of his decision to sacrifice a relationship with Mary Jane, the love of his life. What does Peter do in SM3, when he finally has her? He tells her to watch him swing in during a public event, and then shares their special upside-down kiss with some random hottie in the crowd. Holy shit was that stupid. Way to show how grateful you are to have her after acting so emo in the previous movie. I suspected that he may have already been under the influence of the symbiote when he did that, but later the movie refuted that excuse by showing Peter bonding with the symbiote for the first time. So that was all Peter. :roll:

Of course, all of that bullshit was to make Peter a "bad boy" so they could have him tempted by the unnecessary Venom symbiote. Venom shouldn't have even been in the movie, and the director was even OPEN about his dislike for the character. But he was put in their to appease the fanwhores. SM3 is probably the biggest, most clear example of how fanwhores can ruin a franchise.
CaptHawkeye wrote:Pretty much the whole cast of At World's End. Yes children. The characters wax poetic about the right of "freedom" on the seas. Paticularly the freedom of the pirates on the seas. So they have every reason to defend their freedom right? Ya know. The freedom to steal, the freedom to rape and pillage, the freedom to swindle, lie, and rip people off. The sacred rights of the pirates involve randomaly attacking merchant vessels, ports, and harbors. All to rob them blind and kill their inhabitants.

You can't tell me this didn't occur to any of the writers. Unless of course, they didn't care, and their only goal was to milk the Pirates cash cow into exhaustion. Well mission fucking accomplished I suppose.
That was the only reason the Pirates sequels were made.
Zuul wrote:Meanwhile, the lobby scene is one of the most memorable in recent cinema history, so at least as far as choreography and aesthetics go, it was a good choice.
The lobby scene was "memorable" until 2003. Nobody gives a shit about the Matrix anymore. Any of the fanboys who claim that Lucas "ruined" Star Wars or Indiana Jones with the more recent movies need to take a good look at the Matrix, a REAL example of a destroyed franchise.
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Post by Darth Wong »

The John McClane character started out as a well-meaning but oafish cop, but over time he turned into something like the John Rambo character: an emotionally crippled hard case whose mindset has been so warped by hostility and violence that he can no longer function in society as a normal person. He is now able to function well only in violent, extraordinary situations which are more suited to his narrow skill set.
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