The Origins of Homosexuality

[Durandal]

This thread is meant to discuss the ORIGINS of homosexuality. If anyone has any information into the origins of homosexuality (psychological studies, genetic research, stuff like that), please post it here for discussion. That's what you should post.

What not to post:

• Anecdotal evidence or appeals to personal experience. Nothing like "Well, all the gays I've ever talked to were abused as children" or "This one gay guy I talked to..."

• Unsupported claims. Nothing like "Well, this one time, I read in this magazine that homosexuality might be a choice." If you want to post research results, post a link or reference to the research in question.

• Conspiracy theories, i.e. "The APA only accepts homosexuality because they were under political pressure to do so, therefore all their research is bunk."

• Opinions about the good/evil/value of homosexuality. No one cares if you think homosexuality is wrong. No one cares if you think it is OK. This thread is not meant for such debates, though I have little doubt that someone will hijack it and turn it into another thread where Azeron or someone else can display his "Broken Record" debating style. If something like this happens, everyone, please just bit your lip (or fingers) and ignore the prick in question. This thread is meant to be a place where people can learn and exchange information about a critical social issue, not a soap box for attention-starved retards.

So, with the ground rules set, I'll post some information.

http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html

This is the American Psychological Association's (APA) FAQ on sexuality. This page makes it clear that sexual orientation is determined very early on, and it is not a conscious choice. So called "conversion therapies" are simply subjecting gay people to enormous social pressures to repress their sexual orientation.

To me, this comes as no surprise. If human attraction is based on phenomenal interactions, then gay people may simply react differently to the opposite sex's pheromones, while reacting to their sex's pheromones the way a heterosexual reacts to their opposite sex's. This is a shot in the dark; perhaps someone who knows something about biology could present something to support/contradict/enlighten me.

[Howedar]

My opinion: it's gotta be either genetic or caused by some kind of behavioral and experience differences when young. Why would someone consciously choose to be hated by a bunch of people?

[Wicked Pilot]

(please disregard all spelling errors, this board need a built in spell checker)

My current understanding of the situation is that sexual orientation, as well some other gender based traits, are caused by certain hormones during pregnancy, specifically testosterone and estergen. If too much or too little of these hormones are given at the wrong times, certain abnormal traits can result. For example, females that receive too much testosterone during development can turn into "tom boys" when they grow up. Men who receive estergen when they were suppost to receive testosterone could end up femine acting, or gay. If this theory holds true, people like Richard Simmons must have received some serious estergen when they were in the womb.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

This thread is meant to discuss the ORIGINS of homosexuality. If anyone has any information into the origins of homosexuality (psychological studies, genetic research, stuff like that), please post it here for discussion. That's what you should post.

So, with the ground rules set, I'll post some information.

http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html

This is the American Psychological Association's (APA) FAQ on sexuality. This page makes it clear that sexual orientation is determined very early on, and it is not a conscious choice. So called "conversion therapies" are simply subjecting gay people to enormous social pressures to repress their sexual orientation.

To me, this comes as no surprise. If human attraction is based on phenomenal interactions, then gay people may simply react differently to the opposite sex's pheromones, while reacting to their sex's pheromones the way a heterosexual reacts to their opposite sex's. This is a shot in the dark; perhaps someone who knows something about biology could present something to support/contradict/enlighten me.

Well, let's take a stab at what homosexuality is not.

Well, it's not exactly proven that pheremones have that much effect on humans. Our Jacobsen's organ (The usual culprit in pheremone detection,) is very much a vestigial organ. True, humans do react to odors, but we have enough cortex that we can overcome our instinctual reactions.

Of course, that still leaves the question "What's homosexuality"? From a purely biological standpoint, if it's a genetic trait, then it's one that confers absolutely no benefit upon it's recipient. A homosexual, by definition, doesn't reproduce, and tends to be subjected to all sorts of stress. As a gene, it'd die out very quickly, surviving as a recessive and infrequently expressed trait.

Is it impressed upon a person's brain in youth? Not likely, many homosexuals come from perfectly "normal" families, where any early sexual imprinting would be of the heterosexual variety.

Is it a purely conscious choice? Probably not. Programs that try to bring homosexuals back "into the fold," have very high recidivism rates. Granted, it can be consciously reinforced until it overcomes any initial imprinting.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I hope someone speaks german better than I do.
I can begin the translation process in a few days when I get back from camping until then try to bear with me


Neuronale Lokalisation von Aspekten homosexuellen Verhaltens bei Drosophila melanogaster
Es gibt gynandromorphe Fliegen, bei denen die linke Körperhälfte weiblich und die rechte männlich ist, oder solche die einen männlichen Kopf und einen weiblichen Hinterleib besitzen und vice versa. Eine interessante Anwendung der genetischen Mosaikanalyse ist deshalb die Lokalisation der Bereiche des Nervensystems, die bei Drosophila für geschlechtsspezifische Verhaltensweisen notwendig sind. J. Hall konnte zeigen, daß ein Gynander nur dann männliches Balzverhalten initiiert (durch die Verfolgung eines Weibchens), wenn bestimmte Bereiche des dorsalen Oberschlundganglions den X0-Genotyp aufweisen. Der Geno- und Phänotyp des Hinterleibs spielen für diesen Verhaltensaspekt hingegen keine Rolle (s.u.).

Mit Hilfe des Gal4/UAS-Systems können heute beliebige Gene in definierten Neuronengruppen zur Expression gebracht werden. Diese Methode stellt eine gezielte Methode zur Generierung genetischer Mosaike dar. Ganz anders als bei den auf klassische Weise hergestellten genetischen Mosaiken können beliebig viele, identische Individuen erzeugt werden. Es war deshalb nur eine Frage der Zeit, bis daß diese Vorteile der Enhancertrap-Methode für die Frage nach den neuronalen Grundlagen des Sexualverhaltens ausgenutzt wurden. 1995 publizierten zwei Gruppen, Ferveur et al. (1995) in SCIENCE und O'Dell et al. (1995) in NEURON, entsprechende Versuche mit vergleichbaren Ergebnissen. Die Autoren nutzten aus, daß von dem transformer (tra) Gen bekannt ist, daß es eine weibchenspezifische Spleißvariante produziert, deren ektopische Expression die Feminisierung chromosomal männlicher Drosophila verursacht.

Von O'Dell et al. wurden durch Kreuzung von UAS-tra Transformanten mit z.B. den Gal4-Linien c35, c123, c232, c739 und 201Y F1-Männchen erzeugt, in denen das weibchenspezifische tra-Genprodukt nur im Zentralkomplex (c232) oder hauptsächlich in Teilen der Kenyonzellpopulation der Pilzkörper exprimiert wird. Ektopische Expression im Zentralkomplex hatte keinen Effekt auf das Sexualverhalten. Durch die spezifische tra-Fehlexpression in den Gal4-Stämmen 201Y und c123 wird bewirkt, daß die Männchen neben Weibchen auch andere Männchen anbalzen; sie sind selbst für wildtypische Männchen aber nicht attraktiv (erscheinen diesen also nicht feminisiert). Das Verhalten der transformierten Fliegen ähnelt dem Verhalten von fruitless (fru)-Mutanten, deren Defekte jedoch noch nicht im Gehirn näher lokalisiert sind.

Ferveur et al. (1995) finden in ihren Experimenten ähnliche Verhaltensdefekte, wenn Pilzkörperstrukturen oder bestimmte Glomeruli der Antennalloben feminisiert wurden. Die wichtigen Glomeruli hierfür sind DM2, DA3 und DA4 (Stocker et al., 1990).

Interpretation der Ergebnisse: Die Ergebnisse können im Zusammenhang mit der engen Verbindung der Antennalloben und Pilzkörper zum Geruchssinn diskutiert werden. Beide Geschlechter von Drosophila produzieren Pheromone, die für heterosexuelles Verhalten relevant sind. Weibliche Pheromone sind attraktiv für Männchen, aber männliche Pheromone stoßen normalerweise andere Männchen ab und ziehen Weibchen an (Ferveur et al., 1989). Die geschlechtsspezifische Wahrnehmung dieser Pheromone schließt homosexuelles Verhalten zwischen reifen Männchen normalerweise aus. Die Expression der weibchenspezischen Isoform des tra-Genprodukts in chromosomal männlichen Fliegen scheint die Differenzierung der sexspezifischen Duftwahrnehmung zu unterbinden.

Ob die geschilderten Befunde ein mögliches Modell für die Verursachung von Homosexualität in anderen Systemen darstellen, ist z.Zt. nicht auszuschließen. Es gibt Berichte über strukturelle Unterschiede im Hypothalamus bei hetero- und homosexuellen Männern (LeVay, 1991). Fundierte Meinungen und Informationen hierzu können im Diskussionsforum eingebracht werden.

http://neuro.biologie.uni-freiburg.de/S ... yflies.htm

[Alyrium Denryle]

Here we gp something in English





12/12/96


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scientists identify gene for sexual behavior in male flies
A team of scientists from four universities has isolated the gene that controls most or all sexual behavior in male fruit flies. Their research is the first to pinpoint a single gene that works in the brain to govern nearly all aspects of a complex behavior in adult animals.

The scientists from Stanford, the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas, Brandeis University and Oregon State University report their findings in the Dec. 13 issue of the journal Cell.


The gene fru governs the fly's courtship and mating ritual, including its courting song. Here a male with a normal copy of the gene lifts one wing and vibrates it in a rhythmic song, as recorded on an oscilloscope below the drawing. Males with a slight alteration, or mutation, of the fru gene have subtle changes in their songs. With severe mutations, the flies do not sing a note, though they can flick their wings and can use them to fly. (courtesy: Jeffrey Hall, Brandeis University)



Geneticists have known for years that the gene, called fruitless and nicknamed fru, influences sexual orientation in the fly Drosophila melanogaster. Male flies with some mutations in the fru gene become bisexual ­ they cannot tell other males from female flies when courting. With this research, the team of geneticists cloned and isolated the fru gene, and showed that it controls much more than the male's choice of partners.

They showed that the fru gene is:

A master gene that controls not only sexual orientation but all, or nearly all, the steps in the male fly's elaborate courtship ritual ­ from its first interest in a female through its rhythmic courting song, to its attempts to mate.
Part of a group of genes that work together to govern all aspects of sex in these flies, including development of male and female organs.
At work in a very small fraction of the cells in the fly's brain. The properties of the fru gene's target neurons suggest that they carry out command-and-control functions to set up and coordinate the complex events of male courtship and copulation.
"There has been speculation recently that no single gene could control a complex behavior. This work shows that a gene can do so ­ at least in fruit flies," said Stanford biologist Bruce Baker, one of the four principal investigators of the study.



The gene fru governs the fly's courtship and mating ritual, including the male fly's ability to recognize a female. Males with a normal copy of the gene, at right, pursue only females. Males with an alteration, or mutation, of the fru gene, at left, court both sexes, and sometimes form chains with each male courting the one in front of it. (courtesy: Jeffrey Hall, Brandeis University)



The lead author on the Cell article is Lisa Ryner, a research associate in Baker's lab at Stanford. The principal investigators on the National Institutes of Health-sponsored study are Baker, professor of biological sciences at Stanford and an expert on the molecular genetics of sexual differentiation; Steven Wasserman, associate professor of molecular biology and oncology at UT Southwestern, an expert on the molecular genetics of fertility; Jeffrey Hall, professor of biology at Brandeis University and an expert on genetics and fly sexual behavior; and Barbara Taylor, assistant professor of biology at Oregon State University and an expert on genetics and the fly's nervous system.

Co-authors include postdoctoral research fellow Stephen F. Goodwin and research associate Adriana Villella of Brandeis; postdoctoral fellow Anuranjan Anand of Stanford; and Diego H. Castrillon, formerly an M.D./Ph.D. student at UT Southwestern, now a resident in pathology at Brigham and Women's Hospital and Harvard University Medical School.

"These findings on fru provide a starting point for a whole host of other studies, to learn how sexual behavior and sexual orientation are specified by genes and controlled by the nervous system," Wasserman said.

"Our data so far suggest that fru is involved in interactions between a handful of specific brain cells that in some way direct the various steps of male courtship behavior and copulation," Taylor said. "This is an important tool ­ here we have a gene that allows us to extract some behavioral element and then go into the nervous system and see how it is organized."

"This is a spectacular example of the value of open exchange at scientific conferences," said Wasserman. The labs joined forces at an international meeting when he and Baker realized that each of their groups had half the essential information needed to clone and understand the role of the fru gene. "We had a map, and they knew where the crucial point in the map was," Wasserman said. "To go on and understand how the gene works called for the skills of the other two labs as well."



Important evidence that fru is the gene normally controlling most male sex behavior in the fruit fly comes from the fact that it fits in a hierarchy of genes that governs all other aspects of sex as well. In Drosophila males, "doublesex" (dsx) commands the development of male sex organs and other male characteristics, while "fruitless" (fru) commands male sexual behavior. Genes higher up in the family tree act to turn off dsx and fru so that female flies do not exhibit male sex organs or male behavior. (courtesy: Bruce Baker, Stanford University)

Could human sexual behavior be commanded by a single gene? So far, no gene similar to fru has been found in humans or other animals. But geneticists have been studying fruit flies for more than 80 years to learn how genes instruct the building of the fly's body and the function of its cells, and insights from that work have already helped explain how the human body develops.

"In any complex organism, brain formation and function must be controlled in part by genes," Hall said. "The question is not whether but how do the actions of a given gene influence some interesting aspect of behavior."

However, he said, "Even if a gene of this sort could be identified in humans, that does not mean it would solely 'determine' behavior. By definition, those actions are also influenced by upbringing and environment ­ even in flies."


-30-

-By Janet Basu-

REPORTERS NOTE: There are several indirect ways in which genes have been found to affect a fly's sexual behavior. For example, last year NIH researchers made headlines when they altered a gene for eye color so that it was expressed in every cell in the fly's body. In some cells, the altered eye-color gene triggered abnormal changes so that male flies courted other males. In contrast, the Dec. 13 Cell paper reports on the characterization of a gene that works within a group of genes governing all aspects of fruit fly sex. The research shows that this gene normally acts in the central nervous system of all male flies to specify sexual behavior.

ART EDITOR: Photos and art to accompany this story are available by anonymous ftp at ftp://36.15.0.227/images ­ look for the "fly art" folder.

All images are embargoed until 5:00 p.m. EST on Thursday, Dec 12.

To obtain a copy of the scientific paper in Cell call (617) 661-7057, ext. 138.



http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/relag ... vgene.html

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

I think, homosexuality is a choice people make during life.

[kojikun]

I think to answer the question of where homosexuality comes from we must also answer the question "Where does heterosexuality come from".

Heterosexuality has its purpose, to produce children, but that doesn't make it automatically there. There has to be something in you that makes you go for a woman or a man. Heterosexuality, like homosexuality, is caused by something, probably the exact same thing as homosexuality.

Something else we must concider is that every species has homosexuality. It's not a choice, or a random happening. To find the origins, or atleast purpose, of homosexuality we must look at what it does.

Someone noted that us gay boys, girls, men, and women do not produce offspring. In prehistoric times when food was very limited and death was around every turn, new childred were more a burden then they were a benefit. An extra mouth to feed with no contribution. But if a group has even a single homosexual member, thats an extra person to help hunt, without the problem of that person producing children to drain on the resources. If anything, the origins of homosexuality are to act as a limit on heterosexuals, and to provide more manpower. We homosexuals probably exist to prevent heterosexuals from starving themselves to death by producing too many kids and eating all the available food.

Plus, if anyones ever seen prehistoric caves they'd agree, some interior decorators were necessary! LOL

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

To quote Howedar: "It's gotta be either genetic or caused by some behavioural and experience differences when young..."

Duh! So it's either nature or nurture? That ads so much to this discusion.
I believe it is either something within, our something without. But I am not sure. To be sure, it's either free will, or predestination.
Sorry about being so controversial.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

PS:
I don't personaly believe it to be genetic,(pending the discovery of the 'gay' gene) but that leaves a whole other range of organic, physical causes. I don't for one minute believe it is a choice, made deliberatly, and consiously. I mean, who would make such a chioce, if they HAD such a choice? Being hassled your whole life sounds so tempting. Being hated and hassled by people you don't even know sounds like more fun than should be legal.
The upside being, if you are lucky, and work hard at it, you get to, well, get what the people in the majority pretty much ALL get. That is, to have a normal love life, be respected and liked. Worth every bit of the down side huh?

[Alyrium Denryle]

I think, homosexuality is a choice people make during life.

Well while I respect your opinion I must disagree.l

I know from personal expeerience that I didn't choose to be gay. I didnt choose to be ridiculed and hated by people I dont know. I didnt choose to attracted to someone, who isnt the least bit attracted to me and probably end up being hated by that person in return. I dont know why anyone would make that choice, and I know I wouldn't.

For those of you wondering about that post, yes Iam depressed right now. And yes Iam having some personal problems that I will do my best not to bring into these forums.

[kojikun]

Aww Aly dont be depressed ::huggle:: listen to some Sebacean bar music, dance, and laugh at the mean people cause theyre stupid!

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

A D,
Gay and an atheist. Wow. All you need now is a drug addiction, and be Republican, and someone from every group in America will find a reason to hassle you! Maybe you can cop to being cruel to animals. (note to the thick headed, or thin skinned, I am not equating these things in any context except that people in large groups with hate you! Unless you want to equate being a Republican with being a drug addict, or one who is cruel to animals!) What with your dad being what he is, you must have a rough time of it.
Seriosly, if you are having a tough time of it, or having problems in your love life, (or lack thereof) it's ok to be sad, if you are at that place. Feel the pain, and sorrow, and mourn any losses. See if reexamining where you are requires a perspective check. Big picture. Are you healthy, well fed, and parasite free? If yes, you are ahead of the bulk of humanity, from homminids to present. You know who you are, and what you have to be greatful for. At the risk of sounding trite, you have escaped your father, and his church, which is no small feat, at your young age. If I don't have this wrong, you are going to college, and have a good future ahead of you.
If the source of your blues is your love life, join the club. Being in this one doesn't help you feel better, but lets you know you lonelyness is very common. Nothing in your life will bring you such happyness, or sorrow, as love for an other.

In short, be sad, but don't dwell on it.

I will leave you with a mental picture, seen on a bumpersticker, some years ago.:
The picture, an astonished looking whale, his body bent into a U, his middle obscured by a mushroom cloud, which he is on top of.
Caption: "Nuke the gay whales for Jesus!"

Question: just how many people CAN you offend, with one sarcastic bumpersticker?
As stupid as I thought it was, I still laughed.The whale looked SO astonished.
I hope that if nothjing else, you got a small smile, or a tad bit of sympathy from this post.

[SirNitram]

Homosexuality, if a trait, has to be some sort of stopgap. It can't be 'passed on', as there are only a tiny percentage of homosexual individuals who reproduce(Insemination, repression of sexuality, etc...). I suppose you could make the case it's some sort of 'emergency brake' for if a set of DNA is bad somehow, to prevent it from being passed on.

[kojikun]

How do you mean stopgap?

If homosexuality is genetic then its only a matter of changing the "sexuality" gene, not the HOMOsexuality gene. The fact that homosexuality exists despite not being something passed down proves that, if genetic, its a matter of changing something that already exists and makes you heterosexual.

[Mr Bean]

So starts the second page

Kojikun what about Bi's then are they just Oppertunist? Or Greedy

[kojikun]

Bi people have an in between, I'm guessing.

Is it possible to get brown hair from blond and black haired parents? If so, then bi must be similar -- a mix of both.

*edit*

Its also possible that sexuality, straight, bi or gay, is all psychological, but the fact that you can have a gay person come from an identical background as a straight person would indicate that the cause of ones sexuality is not based on surroundings or psychology but something genetic.

Perhaps, because the thing that decides your sexuality must be one of two genes, maybe both instead of just one would make you bi.

Tho, a "sexuality gene" cant exist. its more likely to be a gene deciding which gender you like.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Thank you for your concern... Im fine now

But in response to the above post...good point, that could be possible

[kojikun]

Aly, what happened? you were really bad there. who fucked with you?

[Alyrium Denryle]

That would be off the topic for this forum if you wish to know ask via a private message or Email me.

I dont want to highjack this forum.

Note:This is one of the few forums out there in which I would feel guilty where I to Highjack.(please ignore odd speech patterns.