[Discussion]Ideal size of the Senate

Moderator: CmdrWilkens

User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: [Discussion]Ideal size of the Senate

Post by Thanas »

I'd be okay with spending some time on that.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Tiriol
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2037
Joined: 2005-09-15 11:31am
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: [Discussion]Ideal size of the Senate

Post by Tiriol »

I do not object to my presence on the list, as well. I'm willing to commit myself to this committee, unless someone objects to my admittedly usually rather passive and dare I say lurking presence and method.
Confiteor Deo omnipotenti; beatae Mariae semper Virgini; beato Michaeli Archangelo; sanctis Apostolis, omnibus sanctis... Tibit Pater, quia peccavi nimis, cogitatione, verbo et opere, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! Kyrie Eleison!

The Imperial Senate (defunct) * Knights Astrum Clades * The Mess
User avatar
Hotfoot
Avatar of Confusion
Posts: 5835
Joined: 2002-10-12 04:38pm
Location: Peace River: Badlands, Terra Nova Winter 1936
Contact:

Re: [Discussion]Ideal size of the Senate

Post by Hotfoot »

I am a man of my word, even if it ends me up in the hospital. Remember that Greg. :P

So, shall this be a public discussion in the Senate, or shall we move it to more live proceedings?
Do not meddle in the affairs of insomniacs, for they are cranky and can do things to you while you sleep.
Image
The Realm of Confusion
"Every time you talk about Teal'c, I keep imagining Thor's ass. Thank you very much for that, you fucking fucker." -Marcao
SG-14: Because in some cases, "Recon" means "Blow up a fucking planet or die trying."
SilCore Wiki! Come take a look!
User avatar
Stark
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 36169
Joined: 2002-07-03 09:56pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: [Discussion]Ideal size of the Senate

Post by Stark »

I think the suggstion was PM, but that might take a long time. Is an IM discussion going to be productive?
User avatar
CmdrWilkens
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9093
Joined: 2002-07-06 01:24am
Location: Land of the Crabcake
Contact:

Re: [Discussion]Ideal size of the Senate

Post by CmdrWilkens »

Hotfoot wrote:I am a man of my word, even if it ends me up in the hospital. Remember that Greg. :P

So, shall this be a public discussion in the Senate, or shall we move it to more live proceedings?
My operating idea is that if the proposed members agree and the Senate concurs ya'll could do it however it works best for you. My only request would be to see any proposal before it hits the floor for debate.
Image
SDNet World Nation: Wilkonia
Armourer of the WARWOLVES
ASVS Vet's Association (Class of 2000)
Former C.S. Strowbridge Gold Ego Award Winner
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE

"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. "
-Kingdom of Heaven
User avatar
Alyeska
Federation Ambassador
Posts: 17496
Joined: 2002-08-11 07:28pm
Location: Montana, USA

Re: [Discussion]Ideal size of the Senate

Post by Alyeska »

Just a few suggestions. Would it be possible to create a sub-forum specifically for the committee to discuss the issue? Something coded to lock out everyone but the committee members? A forum format might work well for extended discussion and the ability to easily look at what is discussed and go over options.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."

"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
User avatar
CmdrWilkens
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9093
Joined: 2002-07-06 01:24am
Location: Land of the Crabcake
Contact:

Re: [Discussion]Ideal size of the Senate

Post by CmdrWilkens »

Alyeska wrote:Just a few suggestions. Would it be possible to create a sub-forum specifically for the committee to discuss the issue? Something coded to lock out everyone but the committee members? A forum format might work well for extended discussion and the ability to easily look at what is discussed and go over options.
We probably could but it be a pain and I'm not gonna ask the admins to do it.
Image
SDNet World Nation: Wilkonia
Armourer of the WARWOLVES
ASVS Vet's Association (Class of 2000)
Former C.S. Strowbridge Gold Ego Award Winner
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE

"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. "
-Kingdom of Heaven
User avatar
Tiriol
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2037
Joined: 2005-09-15 11:31am
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: [Discussion]Ideal size of the Senate

Post by Tiriol »

A sub-forum might indeed be not worth the hassle, especially since it would only allow very few members in for a very short period of time. However IM, MSN and other similar services would also be a pain in the ass when people from all over the world would try to find some common time to discuss various proposals. We do have jobs and studies, after all.

Private messaging or E-mailing might be the way to go, unless a specific sub-forum is created or some sort of special thread in the Senate or somewhere else where only the members of the Committee could post. However, that option too has its disadvantages.
Confiteor Deo omnipotenti; beatae Mariae semper Virgini; beato Michaeli Archangelo; sanctis Apostolis, omnibus sanctis... Tibit Pater, quia peccavi nimis, cogitatione, verbo et opere, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! Kyrie Eleison!

The Imperial Senate (defunct) * Knights Astrum Clades * The Mess
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: [Discussion]Ideal size of the Senate

Post by Thanas »

Private messaging is my medium of choice as well.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
CmdrWilkens
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9093
Joined: 2002-07-06 01:24am
Location: Land of the Crabcake
Contact:

Re: [Discussion]Ideal size of the Senate

Post by CmdrWilkens »

RedImperator will not be able to participate so I'm soliciting volunteers.
Image
SDNet World Nation: Wilkonia
Armourer of the WARWOLVES
ASVS Vet's Association (Class of 2000)
Former C.S. Strowbridge Gold Ego Award Winner
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE

"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. "
-Kingdom of Heaven
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37389
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Re: [Discussion]Ideal size of the Senate

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Whatever a committee comes up with will just be debated at length anyway and modified, just like happens with real government committees which exist primarily as a means of giving more power to long standing legislatures. I don’t really see the point because of that. In terms of members likely to enter into a debate we just aren't that big.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
CmdrWilkens
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9093
Joined: 2002-07-06 01:24am
Location: Land of the Crabcake
Contact:

Re: [Discussion]Ideal size of the Senate

Post by CmdrWilkens »

Sea Skimmer wrote:Whatever a committee comes up with will just be debated at length anyway and modified, just like happens with real government committees which exist primarily as a means of giving more power to long standing legislatures. I don’t really see the point because of that. In terms of members likely to enter into a debate we just aren't that big.
Not really because whatever the committee brings to me either goes straight to a vote or gets edited by me, sent for committee review and then voted on. In other words once this group comes to a consensus it goes to the Senate for a vote, no more horse-trading at that point.
Image
SDNet World Nation: Wilkonia
Armourer of the WARWOLVES
ASVS Vet's Association (Class of 2000)
Former C.S. Strowbridge Gold Ego Award Winner
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE

"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. "
-Kingdom of Heaven
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37389
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Re: [Discussion]Ideal size of the Senate

Post by Sea Skimmer »

CmdrWilkens wrote: Not really because whatever the committee brings to me either goes straight to a vote or gets edited by me, sent for committee review and then voted on. In other words once this group comes to a consensus it goes to the Senate for a vote, no more horse-trading at that point.
Then we might as well just go back t moderators make the rules, which I’m fine with. I fail to see any advantage to this system.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: [Discussion]Ideal size of the Senate

Post by Thanas »

Well, isn't this completely superfluous now that the HoC has been closed?
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Lagmonster
Master Control Program
Master Control Program
Posts: 7719
Joined: 2002-07-04 09:53am
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Re: The House of Commons has been closed

Post by Lagmonster »

When it gets right down to it, we know the members of the Senate are our 'better' posters - people whose opinions the staff may respect. The HoC was, basically, every breathing mammal with fingers. It makes absolute sense that our advisory body consist of the former, not the latter.
Note: I'm semi-retired from the board, so if you need something, please be patient.
User avatar
GrandMasterTerwynn
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6787
Joined: 2002-07-29 06:14pm
Location: Somewhere on Earth.

Re: [Discussion]Ideal size of the Senate

Post by GrandMasterTerwynn »

Thanas wrote:Well, isn't this completely superfluous now that the HoC has been closed?
It seems to be. Senate activity has picked right up, even before the radioactive remnants of the HoC have finished cooling off.
User avatar
CmdrWilkens
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9093
Joined: 2002-07-06 01:24am
Location: Land of the Crabcake
Contact:

Re: [Discussion]Ideal size of the Senate

Post by CmdrWilkens »

Thanas wrote:Well, isn't this completely superfluous now that the HoC has been closed?
I still think there is some merit to at least discussing the composition of the Senate. We could certainly continue forward nominating as per the pre-HOC days (rules have been edited to allow this). So I'm honestly 6 of one half a dozen the other. If there isn't a lot of support for such a review then I'll drop it and close out this thread but lets let it simmer for a few days.
Image
SDNet World Nation: Wilkonia
Armourer of the WARWOLVES
ASVS Vet's Association (Class of 2000)
Former C.S. Strowbridge Gold Ego Award Winner
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE

"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. "
-Kingdom of Heaven
User avatar
LadyTevar
White Mage
White Mage
Posts: 23145
Joined: 2003-02-12 10:59pm

Re: The House of Commons has been closed

Post by LadyTevar »

Lagmonster wrote:When it gets right down to it, we know the members of the Senate are our 'better' posters - people whose opinions the staff may respect. The HoC was, basically, every breathing mammal with fingers. It makes absolute sense that our advisory body consist of the former, not the latter.
And we keep voting more people into the Senate... why?
Image
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.

"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
User avatar
Tiriol
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2037
Joined: 2005-09-15 11:31am
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: The House of Commons has been closed

Post by Tiriol »

LadyTevar wrote:
Lagmonster wrote:When it gets right down to it, we know the members of the Senate are our 'better' posters - people whose opinions the staff may respect. The HoC was, basically, every breathing mammal with fingers. It makes absolute sense that our advisory body consist of the former, not the latter.
And we keep voting more people into the Senate... why?
This is where I think the committee concerning the Senate's role, function and maybe even rules might come in handy: me may, for example, want to limit the number of Senators, but perhaps also limit the terms of the Senators, as well. The House of Commons may be gone, but the size of the Senate is still somewhat problematic.
Confiteor Deo omnipotenti; beatae Mariae semper Virgini; beato Michaeli Archangelo; sanctis Apostolis, omnibus sanctis... Tibit Pater, quia peccavi nimis, cogitatione, verbo et opere, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! Kyrie Eleison!

The Imperial Senate (defunct) * Knights Astrum Clades * The Mess
User avatar
LadyTevar
White Mage
White Mage
Posts: 23145
Joined: 2003-02-12 10:59pm

Re: [Discussion]Ideal size of the Senate

Post by LadyTevar »

I do feel that while this might be tabled for the moment, the idea should be revisited no later than Xmas holiday. After all... this was the topic that started the whole blowup with HoC.
Image
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.

"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
User avatar
Steve
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9762
Joined: 2002-07-03 01:09pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: The House of Commons has been closed

Post by Steve »

LadyTevar wrote:
Lagmonster wrote:When it gets right down to it, we know the members of the Senate are our 'better' posters - people whose opinions the staff may respect. The HoC was, basically, every breathing mammal with fingers. It makes absolute sense that our advisory body consist of the former, not the latter.
And we keep voting more people into the Senate... why?
Fresh blood is the best reason. If we decide to limit the numbers of Senators we could simply vote new senators in to replace the older ones who've served their time, resign, or are removed.

As for limiting the size below our current roster - which may not really be necessary - 40 and 50 are nice round numbers for proposals, 50 being better if only because it will reduce the eventual capacity for drama when it comes time to decide who leaves.
”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

DONALD J. TRUMP IS A SEDITIOUS TRAITOR AND MUST BE IMPEACHED
User avatar
Connor MacLeod
Sith Apprentice
Posts: 14065
Joined: 2002-08-01 05:03pm
Contact:

Re: The House of Commons has been closed

Post by Connor MacLeod »

LadyTevar wrote:
Lagmonster wrote:When it gets right down to it, we know the members of the Senate are our 'better' posters - people whose opinions the staff may respect. The HoC was, basically, every breathing mammal with fingers. It makes absolute sense that our advisory body consist of the former, not the latter.
And we keep voting more people into the Senate... why?
What Steve said. If you feel that there are too many "useless" Senators around then maybe we should start clearing house of people who are already in but contributing little?
User avatar
Coyote
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 12464
Joined: 2002-08-23 01:20am
Location: The glorious Sun-Barge! Isis, Isis, Ra,Ra,Ra!
Contact:

Re: The House of Commons has been closed

Post by Coyote »

Maybe we should first decide how big the Senate should/needs to be, and then once we agree on a number, see who will hasn't done anything for, like, ever; and then we see who is willing to voluntarily step aside.

Once that is done, we'll have to take what's left and begin the triage work.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
User avatar
Stuart
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2935
Joined: 2004-10-26 09:23am
Location: The military-industrial complex

Re: [Discussion]Ideal size of the Senate

Post by Stuart »

In the "Voiding the removal vote" thread, it is stated that the full Senate had voted. A count of the votes received at that point indicates 35 people had voted. Note that in the "removing a member" thread, the total votes counted was 36. Thus, it would seem from these that the actual membership of the Senate is 36 people. That seems to me to be neither over-large nor excessive given the number of people who frequent this community in general. I must therefore suggest that "size" per se is a non-issue and can (in isolation) be dropped.

It does become important if we believe that there should be term limits on Senate membership. If that is the case then obviously we do need to select a target number for members. Personally, I would suggest sixty as being a number that allows for a reasonably wide spread of opinions and a full debate on issues allowing for a proportion of people who won't be able to participate due to other commitments. Since the elimination of the HoC has emphasized the administrative role of the Senate, I think it is very important that we should be seen as fairly representing the community as a whole and that cannot be done with a small clique who rigidly exclude any new membership.

I would therefore propose that we adopt a target of sixty members of the Senate and that, when that target is reached, a further discussion be initiated to determine term limits and electoral procedures.
Nations do not survive by setting examples for others
Nations survive by making examples of others
User avatar
Surlethe
HATES GRADING
Posts: 12267
Joined: 2004-12-29 03:41pm

Re: [Discussion]Ideal size of the Senate

Post by Surlethe »

Stuart, don't forget that moderators and admins can vote, too, though we're not technically Senators.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
F. Douglass
Locked