[Discussion]N&P Cleanup

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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Ender wrote:What a shocker, one of the shittiest posters in N&P gets upset about people talking about cleaning up N&P.
Gee, what a massive contribution you make to the board. I'll be sure to get out of your hair and let you get back to playing model UN with the other right wingers. You and Knife can jerk each other off as part of the chosen people of SDN.

All this "Move it to Off Topic" stuff is nonsense, News and Politics was created to move some of the load away from Off Topic. By it's very nature, Off Topic is the forum of last resort for posting something. Crime and Human Interest stories are part of the news and have been since the first caveman thought of grunting about what happened that day.
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Post by Broomstick »

Well, what do want? The consensus is the N&P has become overloaded. Apparently moving this stuff to Off-Topic isn't acceptable. Do you want another forum, perhaps labeled "Tabloid & Entertainment" or something?
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Post by Knife »

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Ender wrote:What a shocker, one of the shittiest posters in N&P gets upset about people talking about cleaning up N&P.
Gee, what a massive contribution you make to the board. I'll be sure to get out of your hair and let you get back to playing model UN with the other right wingers. You and Knife can jerk each other off as part of the chosen people of SDN.
*hands you a tissue*
All this "Move it to Off Topic" stuff is nonsense, News and Politics was created to move some of the load away from Off Topic. By it's very nature, Off Topic is the forum of last resort for posting something. Crime and Human Interest stories are part of the news and have been since the first caveman thought of grunting about what happened that day.
Sweet, since N&P was created to move traffic off of an overloaded forum, conditions can't possibly have changed in the last few years. Nah, absolutes are cool. :roll:
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Broomstick wrote:Well, what do want? The consensus is the N&P has become overloaded. Apparently moving this stuff to Off-Topic isn't acceptable. Do you want another forum, perhaps labeled "Tabloid & Entertainment" or something?
I think the consensus is nonsense. News and Politics is one of the more active forums, but that's more because the activity in other forums has dropped to a trickle of what it once was rather than some sort of overloading.

SLAM for example spans several weeks on the front page alone. Most of the topics on the first page are over a week since the last post.

If you had to split things anywhere (which I say again I dont think needs to be done), I'd suggest dumping politics off into it's own separate little domain where the bullshit could be contained. Alternatively any thread involving politics could simply be flushed to the HoS right away. I find it amusing that some of the points raised here (not by you Broomie, but by others such as Red and Knife) are brought up by those who have been amongst the worst violators of them.

Let's take for example the idea of enforcing strict standards of evidence and reasoning in political debates. This doesnt work for one very important reason, 90% of politics is all about opinions. For every person that thinks that having lots of poor people starving in the world is bad, there's at least a few assholes that consider it a good thing to help improve the GDP.

Science at least has the virtue of relying on results and testable predictions. Politics is just about shouting rhetoric over and over again until Goebbels himself would consider it a bit much. We've banned people certainly, but we still have those that oppose socialized healthcare despite every fact available showing it's superior in terms of cost effectiveness and level of coverage. If we had someone that pulled the same shit with cold fusion we'd ban them.

Gun control? We've had people admit time and again that what they really want is the ability to shoot criminals on sight...but it's okay because they believe in it.

If folk want a bullshit free forum, take everything related to politics and shitcan it now.
"Prodesse Non Nocere."
"It's all about popularity really, if your invisible friend that tells you to invade places is called Napoleon, you're a loony, if he's called Jesus then you're the president."
"I'd drive more people insane, but I'd have to double back and pick them up first..."
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Knife wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:
Ender wrote:What a shocker, one of the shittiest posters in N&P gets upset about people talking about cleaning up N&P.
Gee, what a massive contribution you make to the board. I'll be sure to get out of your hair and let you get back to playing model UN with the other right wingers. You and Knife can jerk each other off as part of the chosen people of SDN.
*hands you a tissue*
You can hang on to your own cumrags shithead, I'm sure Ender will enjoy the extra fibre and protein.
All this "Move it to Off Topic" stuff is nonsense, News and Politics was created to move some of the load away from Off Topic. By it's very nature, Off Topic is the forum of last resort for posting something. Crime and Human Interest stories are part of the news and have been since the first caveman thought of grunting about what happened that day.
Sweet, since N&P was created to move traffic off of an overloaded forum, conditions can't possibly have changed in the last few years. Nah, absolutes are cool. :roll:
So, the solution is to move it back to the forum where it came from originally. Great idea, will you be swallowing spiders to catch these flies? The fact is that the two most active forums on this board are News and Politics and Off Topic, they are by no means overloaded, they just contain shit that you and some other self important jackasses dont like, in much the same vein as all this whinging about testing that happens with some regularity in here.

They are the only two forums with any kind of real regularity of traffic, other forums can spend weeks before something is moved off the first page, these tend to be around 3 to 4 days. Hardly a sprint, but far faster than the glacial pace of much of the board.
"Prodesse Non Nocere."
"It's all about popularity really, if your invisible friend that tells you to invade places is called Napoleon, you're a loony, if he's called Jesus then you're the president."
"I'd drive more people insane, but I'd have to double back and pick them up first..."
"All it takes for bullshit to thrive is for rational men to do nothing." - Kevin Farrell, B.A. Journalism.
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Post by Ender »

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Ender wrote:What a shocker, one of the shittiest posters in N&P gets upset about people talking about cleaning up N&P.
Gee, what a massive contribution you make to the board. I'll be sure to get out of your hair and let you get back to playing model UN with the other right wingers. You and Knife can jerk each other off as part of the chosen people of SDN.
Thank you for illustrating why N&P needs new moderators and a through clean out - You use the fact that people may hold a different opinion then you as an insult. Yes, how dare people disagree on the fine points or large points of a number of complex nuanced issues. The very fact that they disagree is worth insult because they should think like me! There are no true scotsman! Now lets bash others for tribalism!

And you are supposed to be one of the people charged with keeping that shit from happening. This goes beyond just being too damn lazy, this is willfully shirking the duties you volunteered for and were charged with. Yes, how dare others get sick of the fact that you and others who share your warped views have stifled discussion on a board dedicated to logical discussion. How dare we point out that not only are you not doing your fucking job, you are one of the leading causes.

Fuck off. Go back to talking about the joys of killing cops.
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Post by Ender »

"All it takes for bullshit to thrive is for rational men to do nothing." - Kevin Farrell, B.A. Journalism.


This being in the sig of one of the N&P moderators. The hypocrisy is overwhelming.
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Post by Knife »

Keevan_Colton wrote:
So, the solution is to move it back to the forum where it came from originally. Great idea, will you be swallowing spiders to catch these flies? The fact is that the two most active forums on this board are News and Politics and Off Topic, they are by no means overloaded, they just contain shit that you and some other self important jackasses dont like, in much the same vein as all this whinging about testing that happens with some regularity in here.
I don't give a flying fuck about testing, it can stay there. What I oppose, and what others here are discussing (like we're supposed to you arrogant fuck) is moving some of the spam and testing-like material out of N&P.

You've yet come up with an argument about this rather than jizz all over yourself about how uppity and whiny we are. If you don't like the suggestions, fine. But quit throwing your whiny, self aggrandizing bullshit around.
They are the only two forums with any kind of real regularity of traffic, other forums can spend weeks before something is moved off the first page, these tend to be around 3 to 4 days. Hardly a sprint, but far faster than the glacial pace of much of the board.
Cool, so it won't be a problem for people to find the squishy bullshit threads if there are only two really active forums. Again I'm not seeing a problem with this and you don't explain yourself well enough to see what YOUR problem is.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

And, how suprising...it's the rightwing cuntfaces that I've argued with on many an occasion that are against me here. It's a shame Lonestar and Shep cant post in here or you could have a complete little club going.

Ender, consider this a little warning in my capacity as a member of the staff of this board. Going after a moderator for their conduct doing their job on the board is not a good idea without being able to back it up. Parting shots has quite a few examples of people that have failed to grasp that concept.
"Prodesse Non Nocere."
"It's all about popularity really, if your invisible friend that tells you to invade places is called Napoleon, you're a loony, if he's called Jesus then you're the president."
"I'd drive more people insane, but I'd have to double back and pick them up first..."
"All it takes for bullshit to thrive is for rational men to do nothing." - Kevin Farrell, B.A. Journalism.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Knife wrote:Cool, so it won't be a problem for people to find the squishy bullshit threads if there are only two really active forums. Again I'm not seeing a problem with this and you don't explain yourself well enough to see what YOUR problem is.
Well since it's so trivial, why dont you take a little look at the first page of news and politics and tell me what exactly it is that doesnt belong there?
"Prodesse Non Nocere."
"It's all about popularity really, if your invisible friend that tells you to invade places is called Napoleon, you're a loony, if he's called Jesus then you're the president."
"I'd drive more people insane, but I'd have to double back and pick them up first..."
"All it takes for bullshit to thrive is for rational men to do nothing." - Kevin Farrell, B.A. Journalism.
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Post by Knife »

Keevan_Colton wrote:And, how suprising...it's the rightwing cuntfaces that I've argued with on many an occasion that are against me here. It's a shame Lonestar and Shep cant post in here or you could have a complete little club going.
Wow, again reinforcing Ender's point. Good job.
Ender, consider this a little warning in my capacity as a member of the staff of this board. Going after a moderator for their conduct doing their job on the board is not a good idea without being able to back it up. Parting shots has quite a few examples of people that have failed to grasp that concept.
Senate rules:

A. Categories of votes:

I.Category A:
Board Policies/Senate Rules/Usergroups/PermaBan

4. Democracy in inaction - You, yes you lucky few, get to discuss board policy! You can float your own idea's for discussion, you can float your friends idea's if you wish, and when the Mods make a policy decision you get to comment on it. And unlike anyone else that might discuss/comment on it, you actually get to have an impact. Go you!


7. Your Father smelt of Elderberries - Yes you can say what you like in here,


It seems pretty fucking clear in the rules we can discuss board policy which includes mods and on mod decisions.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by LadyTevar »

Ok, ya know what? I think we need to table this discussion since it's causing a lot of heated tempers.

I Move This Discussion Be Tabled for 30 Days.



Any seconds?
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Post by RedImperator »

Keevan_Colton wrote:And, how suprising...it's the rightwing cuntfaces that I've argued with on many an occasion that are against me here. It's a shame Lonestar and Shep cant post in here or you could have a complete little club going.

Ender, consider this a little warning in my capacity as a member of the staff of this board. Going after a moderator for their conduct doing their job on the board is not a good idea without being able to back it up. Parting shots has quite a few examples of people that have failed to grasp that concept.
I don't recall your promotion to administrator. Cut the shit; you don't get to lay down ban threats in a flamewar you started without consulting any of the other mods.
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Post by Knife »

LadyTevar wrote:Ok, ya know what? I think we need to table this discussion since it's causing a lot of heated tempers.
I don't see why. Only one person came into the thread throwing his hands up and screaming 'oh dear god you simpletons'. I don't see a reason to table discussion because on one person.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by RedImperator »

LadyTevar wrote:Ok, ya know what? I think we need to table this discussion since it's causing a lot of heated tempers.

I Move This Discussion Be Tabled for 30 Days.



Any seconds?
With respect, I object to this motion. The only cause of heated tempers is the fact Keevan is a fucking asshole. This discussion was going just fine until he decided merely stating his objections wasn't good enough for him. I'll be fucked if he gets to derail a good proposal with broad backing by acting like a colicky infant.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

RedImperator wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:And, how suprising...it's the rightwing cuntfaces that I've argued with on many an occasion that are against me here. It's a shame Lonestar and Shep cant post in here or you could have a complete little club going.

Ender, consider this a little warning in my capacity as a member of the staff of this board. Going after a moderator for their conduct doing their job on the board is not a good idea without being able to back it up. Parting shots has quite a few examples of people that have failed to grasp that concept.
I don't recall your promotion to administrator. Cut the shit; you don't get to lay down ban threats in a flamewar you started without consulting any of the other mods.
And I dont recall you being a fucking admin either so you can take a flying fucking leap too. I wont sit down quietly while someone accuses me of being an unfit or incompetent moderator. Particularly when I have followed every procedure that we have laid out in discussions amongst the moderators, particularly that of not using my moderation powers in a thread in which I'm an active participant. I do a great deal in N&P fixing links and broken tags, I do however try to let discussions carry on unless they've gone beyond salvaging which means most of my moderation goes unnoticed. This is after all meant to be a discussion board, and as a moderator I've always felt allowing more posting and discussion rather than coming up with more ways to subdivide and stifle it was the idea.
"Prodesse Non Nocere."
"It's all about popularity really, if your invisible friend that tells you to invade places is called Napoleon, you're a loony, if he's called Jesus then you're the president."
"I'd drive more people insane, but I'd have to double back and pick them up first..."
"All it takes for bullshit to thrive is for rational men to do nothing." - Kevin Farrell, B.A. Journalism.
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Post by Ender »

Keevan_Colton wrote:And, how suprising...it's the rightwing cuntfaces that I've argued with on many an occasion that are against me here. It's a shame Lonestar and Shep cant post in here or you could have a complete little club going.
You are another scroll over for me, so claiming that we've argued on many an occasion is more posturing bullshit. But keep it up, it shows how clearly we need to clean shit up there.
Ender, consider this a little warning in my capacity as a member of the staff of this board. Going after a moderator for their conduct doing their job on the board is not a good idea without being able to back it up. Parting shots has quite a few examples of people that have failed to grasp that concept.
Lets see, you are not an admin, and speaking freely here on the topic of board policies is what we are specifically charged with, and the very fact that we are having this discussion here at all validates my claim that shit isn't being done there... so fuck off.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Well, since you dont read my posts, it's amazing how you're managing to have an argument with me now...and of course to bring up my posts in another thread. Is this some kind of latent psychic ability?
"Prodesse Non Nocere."
"It's all about popularity really, if your invisible friend that tells you to invade places is called Napoleon, you're a loony, if he's called Jesus then you're the president."
"I'd drive more people insane, but I'd have to double back and pick them up first..."
"All it takes for bullshit to thrive is for rational men to do nothing." - Kevin Farrell, B.A. Journalism.
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Post by Ender »

LadyTevar wrote:Ok, ya know what? I think we need to table this discussion since it's causing a lot of heated tempers.

I Move This Discussion Be Tabled for 30 Days.



Any seconds?
Absolutely not. The shit going on there has been coming to a head for quite some time, letting it fester longer is no solution at all, but us just willfully ignoring the problem.
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Post by Ender »

Keevan_Colton wrote:And I dont recall you being a fucking admin either so you can take a flying fucking leap too. I wont sit down quietly while someone accuses me of being an unfit or incompetent moderator. Particularly when I have followed every procedure that we have laid out in discussions amongst the moderators, particularly that of not using my moderation powers in a thread in which I'm an active participant. I do a great deal in N&P fixing links and broken tags, I do however try to let discussions carry on unless they've gone beyond salvaging which means most of my moderation goes unnoticed. This is after all meant to be a discussion board, and as a moderator I've always felt allowing more posting and discussion rather than coming up with more ways to subdivide and stifle it was the idea.
... you claim in the same thread where you make up fictitious threads and positions where you and I have apparently gone at it, while treating the mere fact that there are different opinions as an insult.

So lets be clear - you aren't opposed to subdividing and stifling discussion at all.
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Post by Ender »

Keevan_Colton wrote:Well, since you dont read my posts, it's amazing how you're managing to have an argument with me now...and of course to bring up my posts in another thread. Is this some kind of latent psychic ability?
You really think that when you, or anyone here, posts something absurd that there aren't "LOL idiot" conversations you aren't privy too? Or do you just think that since you are so smart and uber that only those that disagree with you are mocked because clearly the act of disagreeing with you is itself enough to deserve mockery?
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Post by RedImperator »

Keevan_Colton wrote:
RedImperator wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:And, how suprising...it's the rightwing cuntfaces that I've argued with on many an occasion that are against me here. It's a shame Lonestar and Shep cant post in here or you could have a complete little club going.

Ender, consider this a little warning in my capacity as a member of the staff of this board. Going after a moderator for their conduct doing their job on the board is not a good idea without being able to back it up. Parting shots has quite a few examples of people that have failed to grasp that concept.
I don't recall your promotion to administrator. Cut the shit; you don't get to lay down ban threats in a flamewar you started without consulting any of the other mods.
And I dont recall you being a fucking admin either so you can take a flying fucking leap too. I wont sit down quietly while someone accuses me of being an unfit or incompetent moderator. Particularly when I have followed every procedure that we have laid out in discussions amongst the moderators, particularly that of not using my moderation powers in a thread in which I'm an active participant. I do a great deal in N&P fixing links and broken tags, I do however try to let discussions carry on unless they've gone beyond salvaging which means most of my moderation goes unnoticed. This is after all meant to be a discussion board, and as a moderator I've always felt allowing more posting and discussion rather than coming up with more ways to subdivide and stifle it was the idea.
You want to defend your moderating, feel free, but implying a Senator is risking a banning for criticizing you when you have no admin support and you haven't even bothered consulting the rest of us is a load of shit. You can't make the decision to ban anyone, so any threat you make implies the support of the rest of the staff, which you emphatically don't have. Someone flames you outside of the Senate for a particular mod decision, fine, that's against the rules and no one will argue with you, but in here, amongst members who are allowed to criticize board policy? You don't have the authority, and I'll be fucked if I sit around and let you pretend that you do.
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Post by Broomstick »

>cough<

*AHEM*

While the poo-flinging is all very entertaining, and almost as exciting as the Annual Hurricane Watch, can we recap the main points here?

(after which ya'll can get back to arguing and pissing on each other)

- a bunch of people floated the suggestion of "cleaning up" N&P.

- Mighty Mike Wong seconded this, meaning it's a good idea to discuss what might/might not need fixing

The consensus (still subject to some changes) is that

* Some sort of tag such as (ED) or (OP/ED) or (Editorial) should be prefixed to the subject lines of threads where that is appropriate, such as quoting editorial or opinion pieces.

* Moderators are encouraged to be more assertive/aggressive at moving threads to other forums where they are more appropriate or should have been in the first place.

* True crime threads should go elsewhere (Off Topic?)

* "Human interest" stories should go elsewhere (Off Topic?)

* N&P threads should be geared to actual news, presumably of some importance, that will generate discussion as opposed to a chorus of "I agree!" or Internet Tough Guy responses

Apparently still under some dispute:


> Whether or not the N&P moderator line-up should be changed

> Whether or not politics is bullshit and show be elsewhere/utterly destroyed and the ground it sprung from salted.

Did I miss anything?

If the "consensus" category is pretty solid the moderators can certainly start to implement some of it right now - they have the power, after all. The disputed areas probably need more discussion, but I recommend certain parties try decaff and a cold shower before jumping back into the fray.

This is supposed to be the Imperial Senate, the Coliseum is over there. Perhaps we can start a thread there called Death Match 2008 showcasing all the senators, moderators, governors, and other oligarchs acting badly for the entertainment of the masses.

Anyhow - you may now resume poo-flinging.

(Good lord, who would have guessed that our discussion on Testing would be more civilized than the one on N&P?)
Last edited by Broomstick on 2008-08-31 02:27pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Surlethe »

Keevan_Colton wrote:Let's take for example the idea of enforcing strict standards of evidence and reasoning in political debates. This doesnt work for one very important reason, 90% of politics is all about opinions.
I take issue with this. You are correct: politics is more nuanced than science because political opinions rely on both facts and value systems. You are incorrect, however, in concluding that because politics relies in part on subjective values, we should cease to enforce the application of logic and rules of evidence in debates; a political opinion which is based on a false understanding of the world (say, a libertarian who thinks the American Dream is actually true) is no more valid in argument than young-earth creationism.
Science at least has the virtue of relying on results and testable predictions. Politics is just about shouting rhetoric over and over again until Goebbels himself would consider it a bit much.
No, it doesn't have to be that way here. Politics can be about shouting rhetoric ad nauseam until Pavlov would salivate, or it can be about taking value systems and a correct model of how the world works, constructing various ideal versions of society, and debating, based on the results of this construction, which versions are preferable and which are not.
We've banned people certainly, but we still have those that oppose socialized healthcare despite every fact available showing it's superior in terms of cost effectiveness and level of coverage. If we had someone that pulled the same shit with cold fusion we'd ban them.
And you know what? Part of debating about politics is illuminating underlying value differences. If some people value shorter waits and triage by ability to pay instead of by medical need, let them. If they're not honest enough to acknowledge that "fuck the poor" is a direct consequence of their value system, then we can ban them, but we can enforce rules of evidence and reason without entirely throwing out the subjective evidence.
Gun control? We've had people admit time and again that what they really want is the ability to shoot criminals on sight...but it's okay because they believe in it.

If folk want a bullshit free forum, take everything related to politics and shitcan it now.
You are basing your opinion, it seems, on an absurd black-and-white fallacy: that either you entirely throw out politics or you entirely throw out subjectivity. In fact, the truth can lie in the middle.
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Post by Ender »

On the topic of [Op/Ed] and blogs, I am in favor of altering the current policy, but I think we need to define things better. For example, are we saying all blogs are ok opening posts or blogs are gone save editorial blogs, which will be marked as such for discussion of the editorial alone? The proposal both ways was made earlier. Secondly, what about blogs being admitted for discussion into threads that are already progressing? For example a number of them have been cited in the DNC and GOPVP threads, though neither was initially about the topic.
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