[Discussion]Pleb comments in Testing?

[Sea Skimmer]

How about instead of the senate doing anything, we just leave it to the masses to start testing threads on specific issues if they want to comment openly. The only stipulation would be that the thread ahs the same title as the one in the senate being commented on, for the simple sake of clarity.

I’m certainly making no commitment to read the testing forum in any case, the current system works fine.

[Frank Hipper]

I think having user input can be beneficial. Why turn away a suggestion just because it was made by a "plebe"?

You don't turn away a suggestion merely due to it's source, but there's potential (demonstrated in the Senate itself) for suggestions to lose their impact in protracted discussion.

There's also the potential to give just any suggestion undue recognition; anyone can get a wild hair up their ass from time to time.

Bogging things down with procedure open to all members, losing sight of goals with extensive discussion, and seeing bandwidth used to promote any idea from anyone doesn't seem like progression from where we are now.

Parsimony.
We need no more than what works, and I think that what we have now works; if someone has a good idea, PM it to a senate member.

[fgalkin]

How about instead of the senate doing anything, we just leave it to the masses to start testing threads on specific issues if they want to comment openly. The only stipulation would be that the thread ahs the same title as the one in the senate being commented on, for the simple sake of clarity.

I’m certainly making no commitment to read the testing forum in any case, the current system works fine.

Why not have them simply PM their comments to the senate members? It's simpler and guarantees that the senators will actually read what they have to say.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Zaia]

How about instead of the senate doing anything, we just leave it to the masses to start testing threads on specific issues if they want to comment openly. The only stipulation would be that the thread ahs the same title as the one in the senate being commented on, for the simple sake of clarity.

I’m certainly making no commitment to read the testing forum in any case, the current system works fine.

Why not have them simply PM their comments to the senate members? It's simpler and guarantees that the senators will actually read what they have to say.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

I like Skimmer's idea, or more accurately a variation on it. They can post threads, and see if people agree with them or not, and if they do, then they can PM a Senator with a link to their thread and say the idea or concern has already been floated and has some folks that agree with it.

Testing takes care of itself anyway, so it doesn't burden us any. And that way, they are free to comment on the issue as they are any time, but their point might be heard a bit better if they have the opportunity to bounce their ideas off other people. Right now they might do that privately, but I see no reason not to let them do it openly on the board. If the thread fizzles out, then it'll get auto-deleted, and the Senators don't have to be bothered with it.

[CmdrWilkens]

How about instead of the senate doing anything, we just leave it to the masses to start testing threads on specific issues if they want to comment openly. The only stipulation would be that the thread ahs the same title as the one in the senate being commented on, for the simple sake of clarity.

I’m certainly making no commitment to read the testing forum in any case, the current system works fine.

I support this fully in the sense that we really shouldn't need to get involved. If folks want to comment inside testing then they are certainly more than welcome to right now (OT I would be leery of but that would be on the forum Mod's discretion). Trying to put policies in place for commentary from the general populace seems silly when the way things are now allows both public posting and anonymous private correspondence opportunities.

While I'm usually the first cheerleader for new rules and regulations I think this is one category where doing nothing is all that needs to be done.

[Knife]

Personally, I have no problem with anyone opening a topic in off topic or testing in relation to Senate threads, so I don't know if anything really needs to be done.

That said, it's my duty to put form more from the citizens;

Why not make a subforum under the Senate if you're worried about anyone just making up discussion points willy nilly? It could be like the HoS where only people who can post in the Senate itself can create a topic. Surely the forum software allows subforum creation? I've seen it everywhere.

As to the why, well PMs can be a slow and unwieldy way to convey information as it is. Sometimes some suggestions can be made from outside the Senate to make an idea better or more palatable (or simply more reasonable/able to implement). Plus, for something like what Starglider is doing, it'd probably be easier to have that in a dedicated Senate Discussion forum than it getting lost in G&C, particulary if times passes between work on a project.

If people wish to remain anonymous, they can always PM a Senator directly as the usual method (like Zaia, I think this is a good option to have too*). But this also makes things easier as it can take time between when someone sends a PM, to when a Senator notices it, and when said Senator than posts it. So it just make representitve discussion easier, and if the conversations get out of hand, the Mods can do their thing (and this also avoids the stigma that Testing apparently has).

* As an example, I do have faith that DEATH can have plenty of good ideas, but if he posts them directly, how many people around here (among the board as a whole, not just the Senate/Mods) would simply dismiss because hey, it's only DEATH?

Hopefully I managed to get my point across clearly. Another benefit to a public venue, because it'd be easier to clear up any confusion/misunderstanding that this post may well generate, because well sometimes I suck at this.

EDIT: Some further notes...

As mentioned above, letting only Senators and Mods start a topic in this forum allows control over what new discussions get raised; they still have to convince one of those who can do so to start the topic, both there and in the Senate. As to some mechanics, I'd think whoever starts a Senate [Discussion] thread should be the one to make the crosspost into the public forum area, probably with little more than the same title and a link.

And I think, if it does go ahead, there should probably be rules against flames and heated debate in there. Perhaps an enforced rule that, in the public forum, you can't discuss other's points directly, only make your own. Let the Senate deconstruct it if they wish. Mostly because, as I'm sure you all have seen, flamewars can easily ballon into multi-page affairs where the original reason for the topic becomes quickly lost in the ensuing argument. Something I think we'd like to avoid.

I think it should mostly be clarified that while you can amplify or further a point made by a member in the public comment area, you can't directly attack the posts in there. And the Mods would just have to use their discretion I guess on how much leeway to give such conversations before a split into Testing or whatever.

[Kuroneko]

That's very simple: the native phpBB does not allow subforums. There are mods to allows this, however.

That said, I can't see why this is an issue--it really amounts to nothing but the understanding that Testing threads about the Senate are not verboten. I had no idea that they were...

(Well, other than being stickied, of course, but that's overall a bad idea if done for each Senate thread...)

[Sea Skimmer]

I support this fully in the sense that we really shouldn't need to get involved. If folks want to comment inside testing then they are certainly more than welcome to right now (OT I would be leery of but that would be on the forum Mod's discretion).

If it’s in Off Topic then you can be certain that every thread will be packed with spam. In testing spamming will be less common, since most people don’t visit it anyway, and any spam will just be deleted anyway.

Overall I see this as a debate about a problem that doesn’t really exist.

[Connor MacLeod]

This seems kinda redundant to me. Part of the reason we have Senators is for people to be able to bring their thoughts/suggestions/grievances to light through them, openly or anonymously. Having it done in teh testing forum seems rather needless.

moreover, the spamming thing would be a big concern, especially in testing. I don't really want to have to go in there either. And I wonder if any of the mods would enjoy having to dig through that to find specific grievancees. given that, it doesn't seem more effective than the "PM a mod/admin/senator and have them bring it to the Senate's attention" - I mean wouldn't those comments have to be extracted FROM the testing thread and borught into the Senate for actual discussion? AGain, seems redundant and pointless.

Edit: And further, if there's something wrong where we need a whole THREAD devoted to the rest of the forum haivng a voicee things are probably going downhill anyhow.

[Mad]

One problem with having threads in testing is that links to them will break after a week. Anything found useful will need to be quoted in a Senate thread in order to be permanent. (Or PMed to a Senator to be posted in the Senate.)

If a user wants to create a thread in testing to comment on a Senate thread, then the user should go ahead. The Senate shouldn't have to worry about creating the thread for that person.

[Knife]

There seems to be a test go of it in testing as we speak.

[Frank Hipper]

Overall I see this as a debate about a problem that doesn’t really exist.

Now, let's not get all rational about it!

[The Duchess of Zeon]

They're talking about FREEDOM OF SPEECH in that testing thread! What kind of madness is this? This is the EMPIRE. Someone send some cossacks to cut those dirty slime-scum protestors up!

Let them, however, have the ability to post threads in Testing addressed to the Senate, as long as they bow and scrape sufficiently. We neither must read them, nor care about them, however.

[CmdrWilkens]

I think the point has been made sufficiently. If the plebes wish to speak testing is open and if they wish to speak more clearly PMs are always available which leaves us with nothing left to truly discuss.

[Zaia]

Excellent! Can I bang the gavel this time, pretty please?

[Pablo Sanchez]

What about creating a long-term thread (as with Venting) in the HOS for this purpose? The HOS is closed to the unregistered masses and has the Horsemen around to make sure any such thread is heavily policed to keep things under control.

[Coyote]

What about creating a long-term thread (as with Venting) in the HOS for this purpose? The HOS is closed to the unregistered masses and has the Horsemen around to make sure any such thread is heavily policed to keep things under control.

That works too, but the idea about de-stickifying it in Testing-- for eventual flush and discard-- will keep the BS postcount down simply because it'll be gone once the relevant topic is dealt with. That means one less thread for Horsemen to... Horse.