StarDestroyer.Net BBS

As a preface, over a year ago I asked a senator about having my title removed and was told that at the time it was given it was intended to be permanent, so I will understand if I get shot down on this. Having said that though, I feel that this title should be removed.

I know that my actions on the 1st of April 2006 were wrong and I fully deserved punishment for them but the fact of the matter is that I'm a very different person now than I was then (which shouldn't be too surprising considering I was 16 at the time) and I don't think that the title is serving much of a purpose any more.

As I understand it, the point of titling a person is to shame them into changing their negative behavior and encourage them to instead contribute positively to the board. What then is the point of a permanent title? How am I supposed to be a productive citizen of the board if I'm reminded of one stupid thread I made when I was still in high school every time I post? How can I be expected to participate fully when everyone's first impression of anything I post is automatically tainted by the text under my name?

So can I please get rid of this title, make a clean break with my past transgressions and get on with being a positive force on the board?

Thanks,
David

I think it is safe to say I am pretty regular on this board at this point, and I don't recall you being much of an attention whore.

darthdavid wrote:As a preface, over a year ago I asked a senator about having my title removed and was told that at the time it was given it was intended to be permanent, so I will understand if I get shot down on this. Having said that though, I feel that this title should be removed.

I know that my actions on the 1st of April 2006 were wrong and I fully deserved punishment for them but the fact of the matter is that I'm a very different person now than I was then (which shouldn't be too surprising considering I was 16 at the time) and I don't think that the title is serving much of a purpose any more.

As I understand it, the point of titling a person is to shame them into changing their negative behavior and encourage them to instead contribute positively to the board. What then is the point of a permanent title? How am I supposed to be a productive citizen of the board if I'm reminded of one stupid thread I made when I was still in high school every time I post? How can I be expected to participate fully when everyone's first impression of anything I post is automatically tainted by the text under my name?

So can I please get rid of this title, make a clean break with my past transgressions and get on with being a positive force on the board?

Thanks,
David

If you were making enough of a positive contribution that people thought of you positively despite the title, the title would be removed. Since your presence on the board has been at least to me completely nonexistant, you have no record to show that your title should be removed. Furthermore since you want your title removed and yet you say that with it you cannot post, you are openly admitting that you just want your title removed to post unfettered, instead of posting under it, in such a way as to prove that you are deserving of having it removed. My recommendation is to become more active on the board in a mature and contributive fashion, until you have won respect despite the title. Then it will be removed, or at least I'll damn well put a measure into the Senate to that effect.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
If you were making enough of a positive contribution that people thought of you positively despite the title, the title would be removed. Since your presence on the board has been at least to me completely nonexistant, you have no record to show that your title should be removed.

Isn't that pretty much proof that he isn't an attention whore? Would you rather he emulate such well-known members as Mr. Coffee or Havok, whose contributions to the board are mostly non-academic in nature, or would you consider that to be attention whoring just because he already has a title? Should he instead take after Aerius or Broomstick and 'blog' his way out of attention whoredom? Is there any path at all for him to make himself known to the board without making himself known as an attention whore, especially considering the fact that posters like you already approach his posts with a negative attitude because of his title?

Just because you aren't aware of him doesn't mean he isn't contributing.

Furthermore since you want your title removed and yet you say that with it you cannot post, you are openly admitting that you just want your title removed to post unfettered, instead of posting under it, in such a way as to prove that you are deserving of having it removed.

I can see why he would. Then he wouldn't have to deal with random posters, to whom he is "nonexistent", jumping on him like SDN chat-members jump on Schuyler Colfax, just because he has a title.

My recommendation is to become more active on the board in a mature and contributive fashion, until you have won respect despite the title. Then it will be removed, or at least I'll damn well put a measure into the Senate to that effect.

You mean respect like you get? The only reason you are not 'nonexistent' to me is because of your numerous explosions and drama sessions a year or two back. Now, you were already an established, probably respected member of the board at that point, but I hadn't heard of you so you hadn't won my respect. For Darth David to win your respect, will he have to post in the same forums you post in, about the same subjects you post about? Would it show you that he is not an attention whore if he went out of his way to win your attention? Can we agree that we have many members here whose contributions are felt by the board but escape your personal notice, or is his only path to rehabilitation through you? I hate to think what kind of noncontributing nonentity you see me as, but I can guess.

Are you seriously trying to say that most people on this board meet the stringent requirements that you would hold Darth David to in order to grant him normal status on the board? Do you meet those requirements? It's not like you've never had any non-contributive (sic?), immature posts on this board, but we can all look past it without titling you. Why can't we do that with him?


If this looks like an attack on Duchess, that is not my intent. I am more interested in rebutting her entire position, and feel that the same statements could be made to many, many of our most esteemed and unforgiving senators. If mentioning her past behavior is going too far, then I apologize. I simply couldn't resist remarking on certain ironies in the hopes that it would soften her distaste for a poster she knows nothing about.

Also, I tend to sympathize with Darth David's position because I know that I couldn't and wouldn't be able to make all of my posts 100% 'contributive' in the sense that Dutchess means, considering she has made clear that her standards for contribution are on the same level as Kureneko's and Publius' posts, which is just not realistic for the majority of members, myself included. If I wanted to post on a board like that, I'd bust out all my old Springer Mathematics books and go post on the my old university's site instead of here, where I can blow off steam and enjoy the comraderie of a bunch of fatty nerds and cynics. If Darth David is not being an attention whore, then I think we should remove his title... without making him live up to a higher standard than our most popular posters aspire to before we do it.

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:Would you rather he emulate such well-known members as Mr. Coffee or Havok, whose contributions to the board are mostly non-academic in nature,

Hey! C'mon man... I am an artiste!

Seriously, you make excellent points, and you clearly weren't attacking The Duchess, just her position on the matter. That is obvious. In a thread about a title, which invariably comes from something in the past, posting history of the thread starter and the participants arguing for or against seem like fair game. At least as far as using for examples.

You're wrong, Marina. He may have gotten the custom title for being a worthless spammer and attention whore back in the day, but he's not been that for a good long while. I had to actually look up who he was to remember and I have better memory than most when it comes to reasons why titles and bans were handed out.

So that alone merits consideration of the title being removed. As pointed out, you are not in the best position to make accusations, because your own history on the board has been rather colorful and not always in a good way.

Havok wrote:

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:Would you rather he emulate such well-known members as Mr. Coffee or Havok, whose contributions to the board are mostly non-academic in nature,

Hey! C'mon man... I am an artiste!

Havok, you know I love your antics obscenities art! I picked your name because you are a popular, prolific poster and because you're pretty far from what I felt Dutchess's ideal to be in terms of contribution to the board. I'm not saying you don't contribute, just that you don't like to post long, scholarly essays or well-researched rebuttals in threads about history or physics. You contribute something much more important for the life of the board--character.

Basically, the thing you would want a "Attention Whore" to learn is to stay in the background.

As he is "non-existent", I'd presume he had learned his lession. He has worn this title for 3 years now, and for the reformed darthdavid, it might very well be a liability, making users jump him hard whenever he posts something. I believe an appeal to mercy is justified.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: If you were making enough of a positive contribution that people thought of you positively despite the title, the title would be removed. Since your presence on the board has been at least to me completely nonexistant, you have no record to show that your title should be removed.

Sorry, Marina - "nonexistant" is the antithesis of "attention whoring" so I don't quite follow your logic here... He HAS changed his contributions, which is why you aren't noticing him.

My recommendation is to become more active on the board in a mature and contributive fashion, until you have won respect despite the title. Then it will be removed, or at least I'll damn well put a measure into the Senate to that effect.

Or you could have taken two minutes to do a post search on darthdavid, as I did. Not that much of an effort, after all.

I don't recall the titling offense. The posts I saw on searching (I only went back about a year) seemed rather middle of the road to me, and indeed most of them were short in length and frequently only one per thread. The latter is enormous restraint by SD.net standards. Yes, there were some silly posts, but they were in threads appropriate to that (notably fanfics and games). In more fact-based threads his posts seemed to be either mostly questions or limited statements which is in keeping with him being young and not as technically educated as some posters.

All in all I have to say I don't see anything I'd label as "attention whoring" over the past year which makes me say we SHOULD seriously consider removing his title. In fact, if one has not already been started in the Senate I shall initiate such a thread myself.

Or like every other transgression, ask an admin, and present your case.

This gets a bit annoying when said posters have no problems asking priviliges like one note titles, and name changes to rush forward...but the removal of a title and presenting a case of why they do not deserve said title anymore, people need to be drama whores and plead their case to the public.

Ghost Rider wrote:Or like every other transgression, ask an admin, and present your case.

This gets a bit annoying when said posters have no problems asking priviliges like one note titles, and name changes to rush forward...but the removal of a title and presenting a case of why they do not deserve said title anymore, people need to be drama whores and plead their case to the public.

I don't think it is a case of being a drama whore. I honestly thought that this kind of request was SUPPOSED to be made via the Senate, because the admins have better things to do than keep track of individual posters and their respective histories. I thought appealing directly to admins and circumventing the Senate was frowned upon for things like this?

Ghost Rider wrote:Apparently you think I am blaming you for a particular I've said was not you but that people with negative titles not having the fucking balls to...ask an admin to remove it.

If you want to continue this line, be my guest. I'll happily continue this tirade. And for titles, he can ask the Senator, but ultimately it's still a request from the Senate to the Administration. Something every other poster requesting a upgrade on their name or title have learned is faster, less drama whoring, and efficent to ask the admin in question. In fact the greatest irony is both should have and do have a look on whether said person deserves a new title, but the people with negative titles become fucking pussies. But getting a name or extra on the title, not one single person turns away or requests a Senate jabber session because they know the answer will take them 4-5 weeks of pointless deliberation.

As for banning? That's even funnier in relation how many ask for an upgrade. What are the two active admins going to ban you over? Having the audacity to ask? Are they really that fucking retarded or that much a fucking pansy? Must be because if that was so, the board would have collective 10 members. But apparently this fact escapes them on asking the admin to note they have IMPROVED themselves. Woe to the member having to show that in their last few months they haven't been the fucking retard that got them the title...oh wait, I'm sorry I'm repeating what I did last time, and why it grates on me this time.

But hey, let's continue this bullshit about having dramas over changes that are ultimately determined in the same manner.

Bolded the hilarious parts - doesn't seem like Ghost Rider thinks the Senate is all that useful either. Considering that I just spent the last hour cleaning water up off the floor (our downstairs toilet overflowed last night and dumped a couple of gallons of water on our floor) this brief moment of unabridged honesty just made my morning.

Ziggy Stardust wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:Or like every other transgression, ask an admin, and present your case.

This gets a bit annoying when said posters have no problems asking priviliges like one note titles, and name changes to rush forward...but the removal of a title and presenting a case of why they do not deserve said title anymore, people need to be drama whores and plead their case to the public.

I don't think it is a case of being a drama whore. I honestly thought that this kind of request was SUPPOSED to be made via the Senate, because the admins have better things to do than keep track of individual posters and their respective histories. I thought appealing directly to admins and circumventing the Senate was frowned upon for things like this?

Given ALL titles were meant to be put up onto a vote? If people can request any upgrade of titles but attetion whore when they want it changed from a negative to a positive? It is fucking grating.

I'm sure anyone in the last four-five months who recieved a title change or name upgrade get the same Senate treatment, because waiting longer for something that is still yes/no by an admin is fun.

And as for admins have better things? Sure, but that's why you present PROOF. Demonstrate that you have changed, and three button presses later, no more title.

As for how to do said thing? Wait a week, no response ask again. The said admin may just be busy. How not do it? EP/SC. He asked every admin three-four times a week after being told no.

EDIT: I did not realize that there was a discussion going on in the Senate. Since the points I was raising are being raised in the Senate, there's no point in me arguing about it here. This post can be deleted.

Ziggy Stardust wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:Given ALL titles were meant to be put up onto a vote? If people can request any upgrade of titles but attetion whore when they want it changed from a negative to a positive? It is fucking grating.

I'm sure anyone in the last four-five months who recieved a title change or name upgrade get the same Senate treatment, because waiting longer for something that is still yes/no by an admin is fun.

And as for admins have better things? Sure, but that's why you present PROOF. Demonstrate that you have changed, and three button presses later, no more title.

As for how to do said thing? Wait a week, no response ask again. The said admin may just be busy. How not do it? EP/SC. He asked every admin three-four times a week after being told no.

And what the fuck does any of this have to do with Darth David? Has he EVER made a title change request before? Why are you blaming him for what other people have done that annoys you?

Because it is attention whoring.

Instead ask admin, say you don't like your derogatory title, have admin take 10 minutes to remember your name, look at your posts, determine to/not remove said title.

But nope, we need a public display of "NOTICE ME!!!", have 1-2 -5-7 week discussion+voting which then becomes nothing more then "The senate request this...".

Now, I presented the others because apparently over 20 others didn't go the drama whore route, asked an admin for a change, and got it. But apparently the admins need to wait for the Senate to request something for darthdavid because he can't ask an admin. Which really makes him look more then a tad spineless to just simply not ask if he believes he doesn't deserve said title.

I don't think it makes Darth David look spineless at all. Just reading your posts in this thread, I find you to be very unapproachable. No wonder people with negative titles don't pm you more often--they could just ask Marina for unwavering support if they wanted that kind of tongue-lashing.

For what it's worth, I pmed Dalton for my custom title because he was the most approachable and I didn't really care if he said no because I knew he would not make a big deal out of it. It's too bad he doesn't seem to be around anymore, because I can't think of another Admin that I would feel comfortable asking for anything. I imagine it must be far more daunting for someone who already has a negative title, and is much more emotionally invested in receiving a positive response because of it, to approach a mod or admin who is quite likely to blow his stack at the drop of a hat.
Look at how you respond to members in good standing and tell me with a straight face that you expect someone who already has a negative title to think pming you about anything is a good idea. Hell, I'm fairly intimidated just writing this post because I am 95% sure that it will be met with flaming ire and not even a bit of patience.

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:I don't think it makes Darth David look spineless at all. Just reading your posts in this thread, I find you to be very unapproachable. No wonder people with negative titles don't pm you more often--they could just ask Marina for unwavering support if they wanted that kind of tongue-lashing.

For what it's worth, I pmed Dalton for my custom title because he was the most approachable and I didn't really care if he said no because I knew he would not make a big deal out of it. It's too bad he doesn't seem to be around anymore, because I can't think of another Admin that I would feel comfortable asking for anything. I imagine it must be far more daunting for someone who already has a negative title, and is much more emotionally invested in receiving a positive response because of it, to approach a mod or admin who is quite likely to blow his stack at the drop of a hat.
Look at how you respond to members in good standing and tell me with a straight face that you expect someone who already has a negative title to think pming you about anything is a good idea. Hell, I'm fairly intimidated just writing this post because I am 95% sure that it will be met with flaming ire and not even a bit of patience.

So why would my personal ire interfere witha another person and even moreso something that is a change that can be seen and to say otherwise can be censured by Mike? Really, it speaks for a lot that people are this scared over a social activity and moreso over something that can be demonstrate beyond a shadow of doubt.

Personally I find it a bit insulting that I comment on something being an overdrawn drama, when people can and have done without complaint to the other admin. This can be pubically seen, the others can tell of the horror stories of said admin denying them if such, but nope...we have to have drama over a molehill, because a simple request can't be held to, because of a phantom threat that has never happened.

So tell me, where do you get off telling how to lessen drama over something that could be handled privately because how dare I make a suggestion that more then a few have PMed to give Ozy on same request.

Here's the simple truth. If an admin has forgotten you and you had a poor title, it's more then likely he will remove said title because you've either gotten banned, or improved.

You know, last I checked I was a member in good standing and I sure as hell didn't except you to come out swinging like this, GR. All I can is that after your tirade that I sure as hell wouldn't feel comfortable PM'ing you for anything. If ever I need something from an admin I expect I'm going elsewhere, thank you very much.

A "pussy" for not PM'ing you? Looks like a smart idea to go elsewhere to me. What the hell is your problem? Your response is way out of proportion to whatever offense or objection that seems possible here.

I can't figure out if you're more pissed that he had the audacity to ask to have the title removed or if he had the audacity to ask someone other than you.

I'll leave it to Kureneko's response in the Senate. He's pretty much pointed why my ire is there, and why I view this the way it is and what changes can be affected to pave over any remaining problems.

In the end, there's two ways this goes. One is said person PMs the admin, Admin says yes/no, and if no gives reason. If yes, Title is changed. End of story. The other is this. And really, this is nothing more then attention grabbing on some level, Senators wanting to feel important to ASK said admin, so said Admin can go Yes/No, and then end of story.

If really you cannot see why I think number 2 is less favorable, then I have nothing else to say.

I understand your point, GR. I feel I could even argue in favor of it. What I object to is the unnecessary vitriol - granted, we all do things like that from time to time it just seemed excessive here.

Sorry for causing such a blow up, I'd just assumed that because the senate assigned the title in the first place this would be the venue to discuss its removal.

Should I take this to an admin or should I just let this progress as it will, having already been brought before the senate?

darthdavid wrote:Sorry for causing such a blow up, I'd just assumed that because the senate assigned the title in the first place this would be the venue to discuss its removal.

Should I take this to an admin or should I just let this progress as it will, having already been brought before the senate?

Just PM the admin.

To be honest, let's review your case...sans links. You have not gotten banned. No other moderator is thinking you are something of to be watched. You are a member of good standing. Simply asking title change is within your ability and in fact is looked favorable. More then a few dozen do so, and not presented anything beyond "I'd like a title/name change.".

Pursuant with GR's suggestion I've PMed Mike asking for my negative title to be removed. Thank you all for your time and, again, sorry for the mess this thread turned into.

Broomstick wrote:

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: If you were making enough of a positive contribution that people thought of you positively despite the title, the title would be removed. Since your presence on the board has been at least to me completely nonexistant, you have no record to show that your title should be removed.

Sorry, Marina - "nonexistant" is the antithesis of "attention whoring" so I don't quite follow your logic here... He HAS changed his contributions, which is why you aren't noticing him.

My recommendation is to become more active on the board in a mature and contributive fashion, until you have won respect despite the title. Then it will be removed, or at least I'll damn well put a measure into the Senate to that effect.

Or you could have taken two minutes to do a post search on darthdavid, as I did. Not that much of an effort, after all.

I don't recall the titling offense. The posts I saw on searching (I only went back about a year) seemed rather middle of the road to me, and indeed most of them were short in length and frequently only one per thread. The latter is enormous restraint by SD.net standards. Yes, there were some silly posts, but they were in threads appropriate to that (notably fanfics and games). In more fact-based threads his posts seemed to be either mostly questions or limited statements which is in keeping with him being young and not as technically educated as some posters.

All in all I have to say I don't see anything I'd label as "attention whoring" over the past year which makes me say we SHOULD seriously consider removing his title. In fact, if one has not already been started in the Senate I shall initiate such a thread myself.

My assertion is merely that it should be far harder to have a title removed than to get one, which is also why anything I may or may not have done in the past is irrelevant; I am holding darthdavid to a standard higher than myself--and I openly admit I am--because he already has a title. You may disagree with that rationale, but it's ultimately a subjective belief on how reversing punishment should be handled; to me it's something that happens only when a person has made contributions far more extensive than would be expected for any respected member, that's all. You should have to go "above and beyond" normal expectations, IMO, to have a title removed. So, yes, I would personally want darthdavid to behave in a fashion well above and beyond the acceptable standard for Senators before his title is removed.

Is that, however, anything other than a subjective opinion which will influence only my voting? Absolutely not, and I am quite pleased there is a divergence of opinion on the issue amongst Senators, as it means the Senate is properly representative of a wide range of views and beliefs.

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:I don't think it makes Darth David look spineless at all. Just reading your posts in this thread, I find you to be very unapproachable. No wonder people with negative titles don't pm you more often--they could just ask Marina for unwavering support if they wanted that kind of tongue-lashing.

The interesting thing about this claims is that I've actually produced a very large number of threads in the Senate uncritically proposing ideas or requests that people have PMed me or discussed elsewhere and wanted a Senator to support and present in the Senate for them. And in response I have often been extensively flamed and defended those ideas at a loss of reputation directed entirely against me, even though from start to finish I was merely trying to represent their views. Had Darth David asked me personally I would have gotten a poll in the Senate started to have his title removed even though I would have voted against it; I am not in the business of denying cloture, so to speak.

And I'll add here that I'll continue to field other peoples' ideas, even anonymously, despite the flak I take for it, if you wish to send such requests to me. There are plenty of people who know that I respond helpfully in PMs already and I'd only hope more come to realize this.