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So you think German books printed in the 2000s use Nazi data? No. The data is given by postwar questionings.

Thanas wrote:So you think German books printed in the 2000s use Nazi data? No. The data is given by postwar questionings.

From which date and from which areas are these surveys from? Just the areas of Western Allied occupation, or also the areas occupied in the East? Do the surveys include the recently displaced? If so, how high does the displacement rank as one of the horrors they faced?

"The data is given by postwar questionings" is a very wide generalization; which is why I pointed out that it's important to note the methodology - specifically the time period and population base of the surveys (which you dismissed as "Nazi data". Really, how else can you gauge the mood of the population in 1944 except by looking at surveys conducted by the regime?).

And again, the stats say that 10 million people at minimum were displaced, as opposed to 7.5 million made homeless. I would be very surprised if such a massive dislocation of population (which by definition ALSO causes homelessness) would not register highly at all unless the areas surveyed in fact did not have any refugee populations.

Unless you show official figures backed up by anything other than some quick calculations I shan't trust you.

You do not need to be displaced or have become homeless in order to feel the psychological terror of nightly bombing, which might do much more to sap the strength of the entire population than a fraction of the population being displaced.

Thanas wrote:Unless you show official figures backed up by anything other than some quick calculations I shan't trust you.

First of all, I did not do "some quick calculations". I said I used commonly cited figures. For instance:

http://www.anesi.com/ussbs02.htm

The US Strategic Bombing Survey uses the 7.5 million homelessness figure. Given they were the ones supposed to figure out the damage their own bombing caused, I'd think this is a pretty solid figure.

Also:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... ww2/dp.htm

Here we have global security citing a figure of 15 million for the displaced; based on the German advocacy group representing these people. Other articles would cite 12 million plus. That there are significant variances in the figures is why I went for the lowest possible figure of 10 million.

I do not see at all where I have been remiss in the research department to warrant these snippy "I shan't trust you" responses; nor this constant attempt to evade having to show the surveys so I can check the methodology. At the very least these surveys should have some mention of the displacements or else there is something wrong with them.

You do not need to be displaced or have become homeless in order to feel the psychological terror of nightly bombing

Yes, but psychological terror is also not easily quantifiable and there is also the gulf between psychological fears and real losses. People may be terrified of shark attacks but it is not necessarily what causes more loss of life and suffering. This is why you need to look at survey methodology.

Could it be that the term "air piracy" or something like it was meant to refer to the outlaw status of pilots and commandos late in the war -a number of who were lynched or summarily shot like pirates?

Zinegata wrote:I do not see at all where I have been remiss in the research department to warrant these snippy "I shan't trust you" responses; nor this constant attempt to evade having to show the surveys so I can check the methodology. At the very least these surveys should have some mention of the displacements or else there is something wrong with them.

Sure they do but bombing is still more prevalent. The reason for that should be obvious - while a minority was displaced, everybody sat in the bunker in fear of the allied bombs. I fail to see why this is so hard for you to understand.

Yes, but psychological terror is also not easily quantifiable and there is also the gulf between psychological fears and real losses. People may be terrified of shark attacks but it is not necessarily what causes more loss of life and suffering. This is why you need to look at survey methodology.

Feel free to do so, I am quite content to believe that surveys done after 1945 won't use Nazi propaganda as their main point unlike you.

Elfdart wrote:Could it be that the term "air piracy" or something like it was meant to refer to the outlaw status of pilots and commandos late in the war -a number of who were lynched or summarily shot like pirates?

No, it was just an insult. (And, as I provided quotes, above; it was used when the air-raids started, right at the beginning of the war) It was to point out that they cowardly preyed upon people not able to defend themselves (civilians) instead of proper military targets, and would run away once they met resistance. You know, like filthy pirates. Character assassination.

The later executions were pretty much a result of years of that propaganda (and the fact that the population was quite upset about getting bombs dropped on their heads every night...)

If you spend your time purposely bombing civilian centers then don't be surprised that people consider you war criminals and kill you on sight. And I am not sure that it would be illegal under the geneva convention for them to do so.

Thanas wrote:Feel free to do so, I am quite content to believe that surveys done after 1945 won't use Nazi propaganda as their main point unlike you.

So, I'm into Nazi propaganda now? Me? Really? When are you going to start actually debating instead of just hurling baseless insults and baiting blatantly? Anyone who has actually read the thread would very quickly realize that all I said is that I, personally, have only seen the wartime surveys (which would naturally be conducted by the regime and naturally not cover displacements which occured mostly after the war), which you have now spin-doctored into claiming that I only subscribe to "Nazi Propaganda"

Again, you have demanded and I have shown my sources. You persist in refusing to show your own sources; so that their methodology can be examined. Survey methodology, despite your dishonest attempts to pretend otherwise, can be wrong without needing evil "Nazi Propaganda" to distort it. It happens all the time; and you "believe" that the surveys are correct is insufficient evidence.

That's the crux of the issue. I really do not see how saying that displacement of at least 10 million civilians (15 million according to the German advocacy group) is as bad if not worse than the homelessness of 7.5 million people due to Allied bombing can be dismissed as "Nazi Propaganda"; and if the surveys aren't even mentioning this then either the displacements never happened (which I doubt) or the survey has questionable methdology.