Best theistic argument?

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2005-01-16 01:51pm

Fairly obvious from the title really, what's the best pro theistic argument you've heard?

Tzeentch · Post by **Tzeentch** » 2005-01-16 02:56pm

Probably fine tuning. It's not convincing, but at least it makes you think.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2005-01-16 03:09pm

Tzeentch wrote:Probably fine tuning. It's not convincing, but at least it makes you think.

What is the "fine tuning" argument?

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-01-16 03:31pm

To me, the only one that comes close to "good", is: "It´s as reasonable to believe he made the universe as it is to believe the universe made itself, so why take any chances?"

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2005-01-16 03:55pm

"You wanna live forever, don't you?"

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2005-01-16 03:56pm

VT-16 wrote:To me, the only one that comes close to "good", is: "It´s as reasonable to believe he made the universe as it is to believe the universe made itself, so why take any chances?"

Occam's Razor kills that one.

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2005-01-16 03:59pm

VT-16 wrote:To me, the only one that comes close to "good", is: "It´s as reasonable to believe he made the universe as it is to believe the universe made itself, so why take any chances?"

Oh god, yes, I don't know how many arguments I've had that boiled down to that after everything else had been knocked out.

That YEC friend of mine used to pack it in with a misquoted appeal to authority... "The smartest man in the world, Albert Einstein, said 'Why take the chance?'"

To which I replied- "Why take the chance that Christianity is right over a million and one other religions that offer equal amounts of evidence? By that standard, it's playing the spiritual lottery."

(Being as how I didn't know Einstein's actual stance at the time he hit me with it.)

salm · Post by **salm** » 2005-01-16 04:11pm

the spainish inquisition.

mauldooku · Post by **mauldooku** » 2005-01-16 04:29pm

salm wrote:the spainish inquisition.

'Believe or we'll kill you'? Yeah, that's pretty convincing when you think about it

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-01-16 04:35pm

they're all good, if you're ignorant enough.

in my experience, though, theistic arguments only work when deep down, the skeptic wants to believe in god, for whatever reason. you know, the whole, "a hole in my heart where god should be, etc."

Medic · Post by **Medic** » 2005-01-16 11:53pm

God is spiteful and all knowing. The big-bad-ass Santa Claus in the sky who plays with our lives (in a Universe as boundless as the imagination he has nothing better to do

)

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2005-01-17 01:15am

It took me a LONG time to understand the flaws in Pascal's Wager. The only one that jumped out at me was the "the chances of God's existence could be zero" one, which struck me as being wholly unsatisfying.

Symmetry · Post by **Symmetry** » 2005-01-17 03:45am

"God will forgive you your sins"

Medic · Post by **Medic** » 2005-01-17 07:16am

Symmetry wrote:"God will forgive you your sins"

Why didn't I think of that? Well, don't forget to define sin: damn near every worldly pleasure in addition to merely existing (that Adam and Eve shit, what is it? inherited sin?) Anyway, b/c God gave you life, there lies in you sin you imperfect cretinous human filth. Convert or die b/c god knows you jerk off at night.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2005-01-17 09:11am

I don't think there are any 'good' theistic arguments, but I suppose if you were going for a strongest contender - and this is about as close as they come to 'reasonable' - I would choose the one wherein a group of Christians said they understood that there were the same odds on Sagan's dragon as on God, but that those slim-to-none odds were good enough for them, at least on faith.

At that point, you aren't really talking about logical arguments any more, but it's, well, it's the best they've got.

Ninja of the North · Post by **Ninja of the North** » 2005-01-17 09:25am

Some commedian once said

"I think most people believe in God, just in case".

salm · Post by **salm** » 2005-01-17 11:17am

Ninja of the North wrote:Some commedian once said

"I think most people believe in God, just in case".

they forget that the chances that there is a god who punishes believers and rewards non believers are just as high as a god who punishes non believers and rewards believers.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2005-01-17 08:05pm

This is my favorite argument:

Stan: "Why would God let Kenny die, Chef? Why? Kenny's my friend. Why can't God take someone else's friend?"

Chef: "Stan, sometimes God takes those closest to us, because it makes him feel better about himself. He is a very vengeful God, Stan. He's all pissed off about something we did thousands of years ago. He just can't get over it, so he doesn't care who he takes. Children, puppies, it don't matter to him, so long as it makes us sad. Do you understand?"

Stan: "But then, why does God give us anything to start with?"

Chef: "Well, look at it this way: if you want to make a baby cry, first you give it a lollipop. Then you take it away. If you never give it a lollipop to begin with, then you would have nothin' to cry about. That's like God, who gives us life and love and help just so that he can tear it all away and make us cry, so he can drink the sweet milk of our tears. You see, it's our tears, Stan, that give God his great power."

Stan: "I think I understand."

Sriad · Post by **Sriad** » 2005-01-17 11:18pm

God making mankind with the intention that it spread through the cosmos would answer Fermi's Paradox.