While laughing my way through genisis...

[Singular Quartet]

Quite simpily, this happy little text is a thoery. An odd theory, and a theory can be refuted or supported, so I don't need any flames saying "This is Bullshit." Read it through, then respond.

Way back when, when the Jews were still some random people in and around the middle east, Babylon might have been rising, and the Greeks were just a bunch of guys wondering what the hell they should do with all of the olives around them. Someone or something came along, and stopped off around the middle east, hopped out, and tried to educate some of the peoples of Earth. Unfortuantely, they failed miserably, but we picked up a few things along the way, and wrote them down. Unfortunatly, we did not even remotly have the correct time scale (Much less the numbering sytem for it. I mean, name a civilization back then that had the ability to count millions, let alone billions.) The tried to explain the origins of Humanity from the happy little single celled organisms a few hundred million years back, but couldn't quite make it. So they packed their bags and left, with that queer look that people would give to Darkstar if they ever met him, and haven't been back since. Whether they were time travelers, some alien survey team looking for whatever, or the Electric UFO Gods from Dimension 10, I haven't a clue, but whoever they were, they did something.

There is more to this theory, namely involving similar legends such as Pandora's Box and The Apple in Chapter 2 or 3, but I'm still cllecting information.

001:001 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[Religous babble. Ignore this.]

001:002 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was
upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon
the face of the waters.
[In the begining of the universe, before the Big Bang, there was didly
shit, nada, nothing, zip, etc. "The face of the waters" was perhaps a way
of describing what it was like back then, such as "It was a as black as
the deepest sea." sort of deal.]

001:003 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
[Two words: Big. Bang.]

001:004 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the
light from the darkness.
[The creation of the universe is a good thing, so we'll let that slid.
"God divided the light from the darkness." Easy: There's light coming
from that big bang over there, and there's darkness everywhere else!]

001:005 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called
Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
[Notes on the idea of Day:
"These events took place over epochs and epochs..."
"What's an epoch?"
"A large period of time."
"You mean like a day?"
"Yes, but longer."
It sorta "Brain Bugged" from there.]

001:006 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the
waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
[Over the next three passages, the meanings get confused, however, these can be shown. The first meaning is that the Seas of Lava that were the Earth's surface are hardening, and the Earth cooled and water collected, with rock seperating the "two waters." Now, the other meaning is the forming of a real atmosphere to protect against an analogy of outter space ("This Island Earth") and this is called the heavens.]

001:007 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were
under the firmament from the waters which were above the
firmament: and it was so.
[See above]

001:008 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the
morning were the second day.
[My personal belief is that these two analogies became mixed and mashed together, afterall, we're dealing with an aboriginal people, here, not the modernly educated. Although, in certain places, there does not appear to be a difference.]

001:009 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered
together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it
was so.
[This says "waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place" or the water in the air, now cool enough to allow for it, to form oceans and seas. The dry land was a result of geologic formations. What geologic formations, geologists are still debating.]

001:010 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together
of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
[Ignore.]

001:011 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb
yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his
kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
[This is actually the rough direction of Evolution, plants first. Granted, its embelished a little, but we can ignore that.]

001:012 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed
after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in
itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
[Ignore]

001:013 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
[Ignore]

001:014 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the
heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for
signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
[More of a comment for the Bible Database: How can their be days, if God hadn't created them yet?]

001:015 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to
give light upon the earth: and it was so.
[Ignore]

001:016 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the
day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars
also.
[Ignore]

001:017 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light
upon the earth,
[And such is the begining of Geocentric theory. Later disproved several times by Galileo and Copurnicus and Kepler, but they were all forced to retract those statments by the Pope himself. Funny that.]

001:018 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the
light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
[Ignore]

001:019 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
[Ignore]

001:020 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving
creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth
in the open firmament of heaven.
[See below]

001:021 And God created great whales, and every living creature that
moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their
kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that
it was good.
[Now here was a slight problem with this thoery, these two passages, right here. For the theory to be correct, it would be a little better if they ran in the oppisite order, and even more preferable if Fowl were even further down, around verse 24 and verse 24 replace verse 20. But nothing's perfect, expecially not the bible.]

001:022 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and
fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the
earth.
[Ignore]

001:023 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
[Ignore]

001:024 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature
after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the
earth after his kind: and it was so.
[The beginings of life on land. See notes on verse 21 for bitching.]

001:025 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle
after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth
after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
[Ignore]

001:026 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our
likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over
all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth
upon the earth.
[Just a wee bit of embelishment...]

001:027 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God
created he him; male and female created he them.
[ignore]

001:028 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and
multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have
dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the
air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
[Ah, so this is the part where it tells people to go off and rape the Earth.]

001:029 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing
seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree,
in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it
shall be for meat.
[ignore]

001:030 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air,
and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there
is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was
so.
[ignore]

001:031 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was
very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
[Ignore]


002:001 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host
of them.
[Ignore]

002:002 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made;
and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he
had made.
[Humor: The bible forgets to mention that, because this is a sunday, God watched the football game on TV. Afterall, do you know of a better way to rest, besides sitting on your butt on the laz-e-boy and watching the game? (Unfortuantly, there was only one game at this point, the Devils versus the Angels, a game where the Refree keeps calling false starts on the Devils, and thus the game will be in deadlock until someone wins, about two days before the beginning of Revelations.]

002:003 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because
that in it he had rested from all his work which God created
and made.
[Ignore]

002:004 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when
they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth
and the heavens,
[Ignore]

002:005 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and
every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had
not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man
to till the ground.
[Ignore]

002:006 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole
face of the ground.
[Fianlly, something to pay attention to. This was a few billion years ago, but a little after the Earth stopped being a ball with Seas of Lava on the surface. The water condensed, and eventually formed oceans.]

002:007 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and
breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became
a living soul.
[Somebody accindently attempted to explain that humans evolved from single celled bacteria, or "Stuff smaller than dust." They also attempted to explain why breathing was important. They failed on both counts.]

002:008 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there
he put the man whom he had formed.
[Ignore]

This is where I'll stop, namely because this starts getting into Eden, and I don't much care for Eden.

[Mr Bean]

Not funny enough to be a good theory


I say to it only
Nee!


Acutaly I have to say in all honsetle while its a nice theory I don't think Humans are even that smart to even with Time Traveling Super-Heros told us how it all worked we have to be alot smarts than what we are, I mean even 150+ IQed people of the time would be damn hard pressed to even stay vaugly close to what they told them there

and I don't think they found 150+ IQed people there....

So in conculison

*Takes time to link damn cool site

www.superpope.com

Take the pope
DBZ him over and you get
SUPERPOPE!
Go watch it its funny as hell

[Wicked Pilot]

At least you're making Genesis conform to science and not the other way around.

[Singular Quartet]

At least you're making Genesis conform to science and not the other way around.

Hardly, just taking the symbolism, and seeing if the rounded pegs fit into square holes. And finding that most of them fit.

[Johonebesus]

Some might suggest that you replace your "superhearoes" with God. Maybe the inaccuracies in the Bible do not prove that God is not real, but that He tried to connect with men in a way they could understand, and maybe He still overestemated man's abilities. (just don't suggest that to fundamentalists)

[Durandal]

Hardly, just taking the symbolism, and seeing if the rounded pegs fit into square holes. And finding that most of them fit.

They don't, and they never will. Genesis claims that the stars were created after Earth, and this is impossible. Any elements beyond helium on the periodic table can only be formed in extremely high-pressure environments (like the cores of stars) due to Coulomb repulsion. The star then goes supernova and flings the heavy elements out into space, which will eventually form planets. So, stars must have predated planet by billions of years due to the life cycle of a star large enough to go supernova.

Furthermore, if the stars were created after the Earth, we wouldn't see them, because their light wouldn't be here, yet.

[Mr. B]

Interesting. I have read some of those books dealing with ancient aliens coming to Earth and giving us some information about science and stuff. This could very well be an extremely diluded theory of evolution/big bang. Passed on down through the generations to the Hebrews. Or just the product of an over acheiving imagination.

In either way it was very well thought out.

[Wicked Pilot]

At least you're making Genesis conform to science and not the other way around.

Hardly, just taking the symbolism, and seeing if the rounded pegs fit into square holes. And finding that most of them fit.

Hey, I was just trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. If you decline, that's your choice.

[Durandal]

Oh, and regarding "Let there be light"...

Light did not form right after the big bang. It formed after X particles decayed into photons a few hundred thousand years after the big bang took place. There is, in fact, a ~500,000 year timespan that we can't get any information from because it is impossible to see anything from that time due to the fact that photons were first forming, and their density was great. So, they all ended up interfering with each other and getting disrupted. Then, things started to settle down a little.

I'd go into more detail, but I don't have the proper notes with me.

But, the fact remains. Genesis does not, in any conceivable way, conform with observation or the current cosmological model. It was not divinely inspired, unless the divine are completely ignorant of cosmology.

It was written as a way to keep women subjugated by saying that they introduced evil into the world. Other than that, it has no significance.

[lgot]

Interesting. I have read some of those books dealing with ancient aliens coming to Earth and giving us some information about science and stuff. This could very well be an extremely diluded theory of evolution/big bang. Passed on down through the generations to the Hebrews. Or just the product of an over acheiving imagination.

In either way it was very well thought out.

bah, that would be some pseudeoscience. Instead of god, lets put another more than human creature to bring influence over us. Eric Von Danken is sure annoying.
The idea of stars coming after is the logical conclusion of anyone who thought earth was made to us by some god. After all, that would make Earth more important, so the universe would be build around earth. Its not needed bad interpretation to come this conclusion.

[Lagmonster]

Theory silly.

Genesis was almost wholesale robbed from the Sumerian origin myths. The Sumerian origin myths were created by the priesthood based on the place they lived. In fact (and I'm trying to find some relevant Sumerian history page link) their priesthood as much as admitted that they made it up based on their 'best approximation' of how the world worked (as a people who lived on a giant swampland and basically built their cities with baked mud, it's not hard to conclude how they came up with their origin myth, and the Bible's one is a seriously bastardized version of that).

[Singular Quartet]

*looks through the posts*

Well, this just got shot down.

Whatever. Off to the doomed, brainless, unthoughtout theories pile at the great recycling center in for it.

[Raziel]

Better to think and get shot down then to never think at all.

[LadyBarbara]

001:001 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[Religous babble. Ignore this.]

001:002 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was
upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon
the face of the waters.
[In the begining of the universe, before the Big Bang, there was didly
shit, nada, nothing, zip, etc. "The face of the waters" was perhaps a way
of describing what it was like back then, such as "It was a as black as
the deepest sea." sort of deal.]

001:003 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
[Two words: Big. Bang.]

In your opening comments, you state that we should ignore the fact that God created the heavens and earth. Then two verses down, you then state that He was the source of power behind the Big Bang. This is an apparent contradiction.

I would just to go on record as stating I don't understand why people, when they read the Bible, they read it with the intention of finding errors or supposed mistakes. Do you read science textbooks with the same goal in mind? If so, may I ask why? It just seems illogical to me.

Look at Genesis from this perspective: it tells how the universe came into being. It explains in a matter-of-fact way the wonders of creation without overshadowing the main purpose of the book. It further explains God's purpose in creating man, God's relationship to man, and man's relationship to the animals. Genesis provides the only source known to humans that provides a logical, coherent history of things back to the beginning.

[Mr Bean]

Look at Genesis from this perspective: it tells how the universe came into being. It explains in a matter-of-fact way the wonders of creation without overshadowing the main purpose of the book. It further explains God's purpose in creating man, God's relationship to man, and man's relationship to the animals. Genesis provides the only source known to humans that provides a logical, coherent history of things back to the beginning.

Yes Gods relation ship being that of a Tyranical Overlord who totures his subjects and puts them to death for everything from refusing to obey his orders to people mocking one of his representatices.


At least Gensis does not inculded the Fact that God have a Gun to Humaitys head, Do Evil in my name and live in heavan or do evil not in my name or don't do any evil at all and go to hell

A religion based on genocide and racisim should not be allowed to survive

[LadyBarbara]

Actually, God does not represent Himself as a tyrannical overlord. He simply sets standards to follow, and if the person or persons refuses to follow these standards, they can rightfully expect punishment. However, God is slow to express his anger and quick to forgive. Look at the history of the nation of Israel.

Repeatedly, they promised to follow God. And repeatedly, they lapsed into worshipping other gods, ritual sacrifices, and various forms of immorality. And like a disobedient child, they were punished. However, God repeatedly allowed them to regain his favor and they were summarily rewarded with prosperity when they obeyed God.

As a parent, I would probably tire of arguing with my children over every little rule or standard I asked them to follow. I would certainly negotiate certain rules with them (bear in mind, my kids are young) but my authority as a parent should not be questioned at every turn. I ask only that they respect and obey me because (1) I gave them life, and (2) I am providing the necessary things (food, clothing, shelter) for them to enjoy life. I hope I earn their respect by what I do, and I would certainly respect them in return.

Religion is a matter of personal preference. However, the religion of the Bible is one of exclusive devotion to God, respecting His authority as the Creator, and choosing to follow His standards. That religion has survived and will continue to do so.

[Raziel]

Look at Genesis from this perspective: it tells how the universe came into being.

I'm looking at it. All I see is a fairy tale ripped off of the Babylonians.

It explains in a matter-of-fact way the wonders of creation without overshadowing the main purpose of the book.

I disagree with the term 'matter of fact', considering that this is a MYTH as opposed to 'fact'. It is a myth that the tribe of Israel stole from the Babylonians and then used as the opener for their holy book (what better way to awe us with their God's power, than to provide front-row seats of him bringing the universe into being).

It further explains God's purpose in creating man, God's relationship to man, and man's relationship to the animals.

Don't make me puke. Humanity evolved like any other species on this planet; we've only risen to the top of the food chain because we evolved the smarts to overcome our physical inability to compete with real predators.

Genesis provides the only source known to humans that provides a logical, coherent history of things back to the beginning.

LMAO!!! Really, babe, you kill me. Naturally you conveniently forget that every other religion in the world has a creation MYTH to explain the origins of the world; Christianity is hardly unique in that regard.

As for your 'logical, coherent' history, may I remind you that the Big Bang theory, geological science, and Evolution theory provide a logical, coherent and SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN history of the universe and the world. The word 'theory' does NOT mean that it isn't true or proven; gravity is a theory, but do you choose to believe it?

People like you make me ill.
[/quote]

[Darth Wong]

Actually, God does not represent Himself as a tyrannical overlord.

Hitler didn't think of himself that way either. So what?

He simply sets standards to follow, and if the person or persons refuses to follow these standards, they can rightfully expect punishment.

Cruel, hateful, merciless punishment.

However, God is slow to express his anger and quick to forgive. Look at the history of the nation of Israel.

Bullshit. See my list at http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationis ... lence.html

Repeatedly, they promised to follow God. And repeatedly, they lapsed into worshipping other gods, ritual sacrifices, and various forms of immorality. And like a disobedient child, they were punished.

With death, pestilence, suffering, infanticide, cannibalism,
rape, and general misery.

However, God repeatedly allowed them to regain his favor and they were summarily rewarded with prosperity when they obeyed God.

Too bad about all the people who died in the process, eh? What a nice God.

As a parent, I would probably tire of arguing with my children over every little rule or standard I asked them to follow. I would certainly negotiate certain rules with them (bear in mind, my kids are young) but my authority as a parent should not be questioned at every turn.

It should be questioned if you cannot answer questions with anything better than "because I say so, and I made you".

I ask only that they respect and obey me because (1) I gave them life, and (2) I am providing the necessary things (food, clothing, shelter) for them to enjoy life. I hope I earn their respect by what I do, and I would certainly respect them in return.

Not if you consider the act of asking questions to be disobedient or disloyal. I want my kids to ask questions. The person who fears questions is the person who has no answers.

Religion is a matter of personal preference. However, the religion of the Bible is one of exclusive devotion to God, respecting His authority as the Creator, and choosing to follow His standards.

However horrible and arbitrary they may be.

That religion has survived and will continue to do so.

Yes, humans are hopelessly irrational.

[Raziel]

Damn, you beat me to it.

Eh, you probably said it better than I could have, anyhoo.

LONG LIVE THE IMPERIAL SMACKDOWN! (TM).

[Lagmonster]

I would just to go on record as stating I don't understand why people, when they read the Bible, they read it with the intention of finding errors or supposed mistakes. Do you read science textbooks with the same goal in mind? If so, may I ask why? It just seems illogical to me.

Ooh, Ooh! I want a try!

Here's the part where you learn that YES, scientific textbooks should be read with a critical eye, especially if you're reviewing material that will eventually form textbooks. Scientific literature should be, and normally is, put under intense scrutiny and peer review and criticism. If it stands up to said criticism, that 'looking out for errors or mistakes' you pointed out, then and only then should it even be in the textbooks. Since the Bible (our only reference material on your god and the creation you believe in) cannot be examined scientifically without presenting glaring contradictions and blatant errors, it is highly suspect in being a source of info that we should use to understand or describe our universe.

Genesis provides the only source known to humans that provides a logical, coherent history of things back to the beginning.

Whoa, tex. Ease up on them assumptions. Genesis isn't logical. It isn't coherent. And it isn't the first thing to try to explain the cosmos in a way that comforts the masses. Do some reasearch. Read Wong's website. If you don't *believe* what you find out about your Bible, that's your 'blind faith' going off and being blind again. Take a cue from that and *try* to re-evaluate what it is you believe in and why without operating under the mantle of ignorance.

[Hendrake]

Actually, God does not represent Himself as a tyrannical overlord.

So what? I doesn't matter what he presents himself as, it only matters what he does. And does he behave as a tyrannical, egoistical overlord who only cares about worship? Why, i do believe he does!

He simply sets standards to follow, and if the person or persons refuses to follow these standards, they can rightfully expect punishment.

Rightfully, you say? For what kind of crimes? Even victimless crimes, like having a different "personal preference"? And is the punishment always proportional to the crime? Even the kids mauled by bears becouse they made fun of a supposed prophet?

However, God is slow to express his anger and quick to forgive. Look at the history of the nation of Israel.

Repeatedly, they promised to follow God. And repeatedly, they lapsed into worshipping other gods, ritual sacrifices, and various forms of immorality.

I like your definition of immorality. You call religion "a matter of personal preference", yet you call worshipping other gods a "form of immorality". So it is immoral to have personal preferences different from the ones imposed "on high"? And as for the sacrifices, I trust you recall a man from the bible called Abraham, do you?

And like a disobedient child, they were punished.

Yes, always in proportion to the crime, isn't it?

However, God repeatedly allowed them to regain his favor and they were summarily rewarded with prosperity when they obeyed God.

Yesss... "Do as I say, not as I do. Dedicate all of your thoghts to me, kill or render powerless all who disagree with me (no matter what my commandments are, if someone worships idols you can and must kill him), have the mob gang rape your daughters so my angels can get to your home unmolested (even thought they are under my protection and I am supposedly omnipotent) and I reward you. Think with your own head and I kill you." That's the sum of the punishment/reward system used in the bible, isn't it?

As a parent, I would probably tire of arguing with my children over every little rule or standard I asked them to follow. I would certainly negotiate certain rules with them (bear in mind, my kids are young) but my authority as a parent should not be questioned at every turn.

Right. That is perfectly resonable. I suppose, though, that you would not kill them because (hypothetically speaking) they might one day come to respect onother person above you? That's what the god does in the bible, you know...

I ask only that they respect and obey me because (1) I gave them life, and (2) I am providing the necessary things (food, clothing, shelter) for them to enjoy life. I hope I earn their respect by what I do, and I would certainly respect them in return.

Only, he only *says* he gave us life. We provide ouselves with necessary thing from our environment. And the bible's god does not respect us in return, he only wants us to worship him. Through fear, often.

Religion is a matter of personal preference.

And choosing a religion different from yours is a "form of immorality", right?

However, the religion of the Bible is one of exclusive devotion to God, respecting His authority as the Creator, and choosing to follow His standards.

Exclusive devotion. I can't dispute that. Worship me or be struck by lightning.
Authority as the creator. I should respect him only because he supposedly has a bigger gun than me?
His standards. They are not that high. I mean, worship me or be fried is the top commandment. If it's all right with you, I'd rather stick with secular humanistic standards, thank you.

That religion has survived and will continue to do so.

So what? If it has survived it has to be good? It stinks of appeal to popularity to me.[/quote]

Edit: damn, I'm tired, it's 0:50 over here. Edit for spelling errors.

[Mr Bean]

Thanks for helping Hendrake and Wong Let me aid my own comments in here

Normaly I can count on Wong to come to the Defense on Subjects as the Properted "God Of Love"

Let me say wiether you like it or not. HE(I'll give him that much) is a Brutal Tyranical Overlord in the Old Testmate, The only time he acutal takes a direct hand in anything is during the Old Testmate and what do we see?

Murder on such a scale by DIRECTLY By his hand and by his followers as to make Stalin/Hitler and Mao look like Mr Rodgers.

Spefic orders to his people that those not worth of him shall be cleansed of the land and the countiuing insuation that Jews are the Master Race of Man and the rest fit only to server him, that is to say those who are true sons and daughters of Adam and Eve are the only real humans on earth and the rest where the spawn of none other than Satan and Lillith

As for the fact the religion survies

It does, For now but every year church attendance is down and has been tending down despite bre-resurgances over the past one-hundred years when the realised

To say you are Chrisitan and Proude of it, Means to say you Worship a Racsit Tyrant

Witness my sig as its creater hit the nail on the head, Jesus was a racist, just as much as God was.

And as I like to sum it up


If God is a Racisit Tyranical Overlord
And Religion is free choose

What does this say about you?

If I sacrfised Lambs to Satan most people would regard me as evil

But...
God asks for the same thing doesn't he?



(Note that old trite aurgment well we don't do it anymore today because we are modernised does not fly as that would be disobeying him, One of the biggest no nos is it not?)

[Singular Quartet]

Excuse me while I respond to an attack on the first page...

In your opening comments, you state that we should ignore the fact that God created the heavens and earth. Then two verses down, you then state that He was the source of power behind the Big Bang. This is an apparent contradiction.

*shakes head in sadness.*
Apparently, you don't understand what I was saying. The intent of this was to ignore all of the religous banter, such as "God then did..." because, as far as I'm concerned, He doesn't exist, and he can go fuck his non-existant self.

[Patrick Degan]

I've come a long way for the power of Genesis. And what do I find?

I'm afraid that the attempted defence offered by the Lady Barbara fails on so many grounds, not the least of which are stunning errors of logic.

001:003 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
(Two words: Big. Bang.)

In your opening comments, you state that we should ignore the fact that God created the heavens and earth. Then two verses down, you then state that He was the source of power behind the Big Bang. This is an apparent contradiction.

This is a very good example of the out-of-context quote, by which the meaning of a person's statements are altered by cherry-picking through the passages and attatching a wholly different interpretation to them when the supporting statements for the speaker's original point are selectively deleted. Unfortunately, this does not make the grade. Excluding evidence which links the two statements together and thereby erases the supposed contradiction does not make that contradiction a reality.

I would just to go on record as stating I don't understand why people, when they read the Bible, they read it with the intention of finding errors or supposed mistakes.

The inevitable byproduct of a reasoning, critical intelligence, I'm afraid. In the case of the Bible, certain people insist upon claiming it to be inerrant and infallible. Any such claim is automatically subject to challenge, since it is not enough to make the claim and insist that it is its own proof: an example of circular reasoning which can equally apply to any myth you care to name, or even to Anton Szandor LeVay's Satanic Bible.

Do you read science textbooks with the same goal in mind? If so, may I ask why? It just seems illogical to me.

Science textbooks are subjected to even greater scrutiny as far as accuracy is concerned (well, except perhaps in Texas, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, and Florida, where accuracy in science is not exactly considered important). Science tells us the mechanics of the world around us, and it would not do, for example, to have an astrophysics book which advances the notion of the Cosmic Aether, now would it? An extreme example, to be certain, but accuracy in science texts is as important as in mathematical texts.

Actually, God does not represent Himself as a tyrannical overlord.

His record in the Old Testament says otherwise: the extermination of whole peoples for non-belief and even an act of mass genocide thrown in a fit of pique because he was frustrated over the fact that his alledged Creation didn't turn out the way he liked after the job was finished.

He simply sets standards to follow, and if the person or persons refuses to follow these standards, they can rightfully expect punishment.

Said standards being contradictory and situational. Like, for example, commanding that Thou Shalt Not Kill one day, then another commanding Joshua to exterminate the Caananites even down to the last child and ox.

However, God is slow to express his anger and quick to forgive. Look at the history of the nation of Israel.

A nation he allows to be repeatedly conquered when the people aren't sufficently submissive, condemning generations of their descendents to slavery and alien tyranny, then ultimatley abandoned to the Romans. Sometimes, it almost seems like a cosmic joke; Israel having been placed in the middle of mostly uninhabitable desert along a natural invasion route.

Repeatedly, they promised to follow God. And repeatedly, they lapsed into worshipping other gods, ritual sacrifices, and various forms of immorality. And like a disobedient child, they were punished.

I hate to have to point this out, but the ancient forms of the Hebraic religion involved ritual sacrifice of animals, and at one point, Abraham was called upon to perform an act of human sacrifice as a test of faith. In the real world, any cult leader who would make similar demands of his followers would rightly be adjudged a criminal and insane (e.g. Jim Jones, David Koresh).

The worship of alternate gods provides no rational justification for the destruction of entire cities and the mass-slaughter of their inhabitants, nor of universal genocide.

However, God repeatedly allowed them to regain his favor and they were summarily rewarded with prosperity when they obeyed God.

Until he apparently got tired of the game and abandoned them to the Romans.

As a parent, I would probably tire of arguing with my children over every little rule or standard I asked them to follow. I would certainly negotiate certain rules with them (bear in mind, my kids are young) but my authority as a parent should not be questioned at every turn. I ask only that they respect and obey me because (1) I gave them life, and (2) I am providing the necessary things (food, clothing, shelter) for them to enjoy life. I hope I earn their respect by what I do, and I would certainly respect them in return.

I trust, though, that you never contemplate punishments along the lines of drowning them in the swimming pool or bathtub, or flinging one of them into the nearest incinerator as an object-lesson.

Religion is a matter of personal preference.

Fundamentalist fanatics deny this concept to its core. Their chosen methods for correcting this condition have been either conversion by the sword, or simple extermination.

However, the religion of the Bible is one of exclusive devotion to God, respecting His authority as the Creator, and choosing to follow His standards.

Funny, the Muslims say the same thing. And as far as His standards are concerned, it is all too easy to point out where those standards are so contradictory and cruel that any rational intelligence must reject most of them on their face as incompatable with life in a civilised world. Or can you countenance the death penalty for adultery or the selling of one's children into slavery for disobedience, to name but two examples from the Old Testament?

[Silver Jedi]

Science textbooks are subjected to even greater scrutiny as far as accuracy is concerned (well, except perhaps in Texas, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, and Florida, where accuracy in science is not exactly considered important).

Actually, it is possable to get a decent high school science education in Texas. I Did. Of course, I had to go to (of all places) a catholic school to get it. Go figure.