Fascism and Monotheism

[Darth Wong]

You know, the definition of fascism is rather interesting when you take a good look at it, because it's indistinguishable from typical monotheistic value systems:

Fascism: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

Could anyone tell me why Judeo-Christianity-Islam should not be considered fascist? God/Allah exalts his "kingdom" over the individual, and may even have a "chosen people". God/Allah has a centralized autocratic government headed by himself, with severe economic and social regimentation (give all your money to the church, after death his followers were go to Heaven while all others will burn forever in Hell). God/Allah forcibly suppresses all opposition (particularly in the Old Testament, but in the afterlife, he continues to do so).

As far as I can tell, the key difference between humane Christians and hardcore fundie fanatics is simply that humane Christians believe God is a benevolent dictator while the hardcore fundies think he's Stalin. But in both cases, God's kingdom is clearly fascist.

So I guess what I'm saying is that the root cause is not really Judeo-Christianity-Islam per se, but the concept of fascism in general, which underlies all models of dictatorial government from the Egyptian Pharoahs to Stalinism to "God's kingdom".

[Smiling Bandit]

If there really were a perfect person, wouldn't 'e be the best to run the world?

Ass.

[Mr Bean]

I've always know this as one of those terrible Ironys that German during the 40s was doing exactly what the Jews Preached

Kill those not of the choosen people

[starfury]

I've always know this as one of those terrible Ironys that German during the 40s was doing exactly what the Jews Preached

Kill those not of the choosen people

when you put it that way, that is indeed a cruel irony.

[Robert Treder]

If there really were a perfect person, wouldn't 'e be the best to run the world?

Ass.

You're a genius, Smiling Bandit; why ever didn't we think of this before? Of course, God is perfect, so he deserves to run the world.

Except that the God of the Talmud/Bible/Koran isn't perfect, at least not by any meaningful definition of the word.
You don't have to search very hard to find countless demonstrations of why God isn't perfect; many can be found on the pages of this BBS and StarDestroyer.Net.
And anyhow, that's assuming that this perfect person exists in the first place. Why should I take your word that he exists and/or is perfect?

Ass.

[Doomriser]

As far as I can tell, the key difference between humane Christians and hardcore fundie fanatics is simply that humane Christians believe God is a benevolent dictator while the hardcore fundies think he's Stalin. But in both cases, God's kingdom is clearly fascist.

Hardcore fundies think that God is Stalin? Really? I never heard praise for Stalin coming from hardcore fundies. Could you explain your statement?

[Mr Bean]

Do as I say and I reward you with benfits
If not you will be shot
If you get in power and slight mess up you will be shot
Screw up and you will be shot
Replace Shot with Struck down and you have the Old Testmate Version of God

[Stravo]

I don't believe that comparing Christianity (Or any other monotheistic) religion to facism is such a good example. Religion is about sprituality. Jesus was more concerned with our souls than with our pocket book or who we voted for. Religion tries to make people work better WITHIN a governemntal system. Jesus was very clear when confronted on the issue of taxation and whether money belonged to the church as opposed to the government, his answer was "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's" The interpretation of this quote has been the basis for many church vs. Secular powers debates.

A christian must be a good citizen as well as a good person. It should be inetresting to note that at no time does Jesus speak out against the Roman regime, but directs his attacks against the SPIRITUAL establishment. He is far more interested in saving our souls than trying to dominate us in the physical world. As he told Pontius Pilate: "If I were to call for it a host of my father's angels would come and you would not be allowed to harm a hair on my head...BUT my kingdom IS NOT of this world." Paraphrase but you guys can find the quote.

The whole religion = Facism thing is sort of a flame bait topic, looking to rile people up and it really could have been worded better. You canot look to the church as the finest example of religion in mind (Unfortunate but sadly true) I prefer to go straight to the source and see that God sent his only son to die for our sins and redeem us, NOT to listen to a system created by men that has competed with government to control people. If you said the Catholic church's hierarchy was like Facism THEN I would say, you have a very valid point, but we must have a care to not confuse the message with the messenger.

[lgot]

Could anyone tell me why Judeo-Christianity-Islam should not be considered fascist? God/Allah exalts his "kingdom" over the individual, and may even have a "chosen people".

I think you can do anything you want. Will be just a matter of semanthics...
Some will point that Facism is a moderm form of governament, that religion is not a political philosophy or that they had a teocracy, but if You transform fascism regims in ditatorial regims, you can do it easily and since we view as "God" as a excuse to enforce the law and obedience for them its easy to be facist (Point: Stalin used Marx to justify his facism, so did Mao. But Mussolini or Salazar did not. And there is many who consider Churchill as a facist so the USA period post-war as facist as well, because all of those used strong centrol governs.

In other hand, Catholic Church not always for example exalted the nations, actually, under they need to convert, they are more "open" than this.

its all relavite in the end. Man such Stalin could use anything to justify their tiranny. The big "charisma" of the religion make it a overused toy to such thing, but I still think the fault is in the person who did it.

[Resident Creationist]

I've always know this as one of those terrible Ironys that German during the 40s was doing exactly what the Jews Preached

Kill those not of the choosen people

erm... what Jews preached that exactly?

Could anyone tell me why Judeo-Christianity-Islam should not be considered fascist? God/Allah exalts his "kingdom" over the individual, and may even have a "chosen people". God/Allah has a centralized autocratic government headed by himself, with severe economic and social regimentation (give all your money to the church, after death his followers were go to Heaven while all others will burn forever in Hell).

giving all money to the Church? where does it say that? There is a ten percent (net, for those who wish to be specific ) tithe per year.

As far as I can tell, the key difference between humane Christians and hardcore fundie fanatics is simply that humane Christians believe God is a benevolent dictator while the hardcore fundies think he's Stalin. But in both cases, God's kingdom is clearly fascist.

well, it isn't focused on RACE per se, the Jews are the chosen race, in that they were the lineage that Jesus came from, and were the focus of the Old Testament, but no races are exempt or superior in the Sense that Hitler believed in a superior race.

So I guess what I'm saying is that the root cause is not really Judeo-Christianity-Islam per se, but the concept of fascism in general, which underlies all models of dictatorial government from the Egyptian Pharoahs to Stalinism to "God's kingdom".

Well, it is a bit different than a government system since we're not talking about Man. We're talking about a creator/creation relationship, not that of equals, so you could say that you're a fascist ruler because it's not about the variables, and the strings, and the functions of your programming (assuming for example that you're a program) but it's about YOU. That is a pretty bad example, but again, it's not a relationship of equals.

I'd be against fascism in Practice because of human nature, which does Bad/Evil unless trained to do otherwise (but even then, some is inevitable). And when given power to do things without accountability, this leads to corruption. this is the reason why I think a Democratic Republic is the best form of government man has devised.

[Mr. B]

well, it isn't focused on RACE per se, the Jews are the chosen race, in that they were the lineage that Jesus came from, and were the focus of the Old Testament, but no races are exempt or superior in the Sense that Hitler believed in a superior race.

But God "prefers" Christians over pagans. That whole worship no other god but me thing. All others go to hell unless they convert. So it's true "believers" who are chosen. The rest are fucked.

[Resident Creationist]

well, it isn't focused on RACE per se, the Jews are the chosen race, in that they were the lineage that Jesus came from, and were the focus of the Old Testament, but no races are exempt or superior in the Sense that Hitler believed in a superior race.

But God "prefers" Christians over pagans. That whole worship no other god but me thing. All others go to hell unless they convert. So it's true "believers" who are chosen. The rest are fucked.

it's more similar to a sinking ship analogy. there are a few options, you can try and find a lifeboat, or you can stay on the ship (which I will admit is a lot more comfortable, and enjoyable to be on than a lame old lifeboat), anyone who goes in the life boats lives, those who stay back are screwed.

A perfect example of fascism

The only way that sin can be paid for is through death, so Accepting the death of Christ is the only way to possibly go to heaven, it's not just arbitrarily deciding that only people from a certain group will go. There are also peopel who claim to be practicing Christians that aren't as well.

[Gil Hamilton]

it's more similar to a sinking ship analogy. there are a few options, you can try and find a lifeboat, or you can stay on the ship (which I will admit is a lot more comfortable, and enjoyable to be on than a lame old lifeboat), anyone who goes in the life boats lives, those who stay back are screwed.

A perfect example of fascism

The only way that sin can be paid for is through death, so Accepting the death of Christ is the only way to possibly go to heaven, it's not just arbitrarily deciding that only people from a certain group will go. There are also peopel who claim to be practicing Christians that aren't as well.

Wow, a false delimma. You are making it seem as though their are only two options. Like in the sinking ship analogy, you discount the possibilty of mking your own raft or in real life, finding your own path through life.
As a wise friend of mine once said "Heaven is too big for there to be only one entrance."

Incidently, I accept that a fellow named Jeshua bin Joseph, who you call Jesus, was executed by Romans more than 2000 years ago. Doesn't mean that I think he was the son of any diety though.

[Darth Wong]

it's more similar to a sinking ship analogy. there are a few options, you can try and find a lifeboat, or you can stay on the ship (which I will admit is a lot more comfortable, and enjoyable to be on than a lame old lifeboat), anyone who goes in the life boats lives, those who stay back are screwed.

Pure sophistry, trying to pretend that God is saving you from a pre-existing predicament. But since God created the predicament, it is no different than holding a gun to someone's head and threatening to kill him if he won't obey you.

The only way that sin can be paid for is through death

Only if you accept the fascist bloodthirsty value system of the Biblical God.

[Mr. B]

it's more similar to a sinking ship analogy. there are a few options, you can try and find a lifeboat, or you can stay on the ship (which I will admit is a lot more comfortable, and enjoyable to be on than a lame old lifeboat), anyone who goes in the life boats lives, those who stay back are screwed.

A perfect example of fascism

The only way that sin can be paid for is through death, so Accepting the death of Christ is the only way to possibly go to heaven, it's not just arbitrarily deciding that only people from a certain group will go. There are also peopel who claim to be practicing Christians that aren't as well.

So if I don't get in the boat I drown. So god made the disaster, forces everyone to get in the boat. Those that stay behind are not going to be comfortable in knowing the ship is sinking. In fact they will die.
A perfect example of fascism.

So if I believe in some imaginery diety I am rewarded with eternal bliss, if not I burn for eternity. This all some old scare tactic devised to keep the people in line without any actual force. [/b]

[Resident Creationist]

So if I don't get in the boat I drown. So god made the disaster,

the disaster is sin, and all humans have sinned, so have either A) volutarity gotten on the boat, or B) created the storm, either way you look at it.

forces everyone to get in the boat.

the boat is all of existance, in the example.

So if I believe in some imaginery diety I am rewarded with eternal bliss, if not I burn for eternity. This all some old scare tactic devised to keep the people in line without any actual force.

the thing is... why? All the people who started Christianity would've had no reason to start their own religion if they didn't have good reason to do so. Because of being Christian, all of them, including Jesus, faced lots of hardships and rejections, with NO possibility of getting any sort of power out of the deal. So for this reason I don't believe it wsa made up just to keep people in line.

[Captain Cyran]

it's more similar to a sinking ship analogy. there are a few options, you can try and find a lifeboat, or you can stay on the ship (which I will admit is a lot more comfortable, and enjoyable to be on than a lame old lifeboat), anyone who goes in the life boats lives, those who stay back are screwed.

A perfect example of fascism

The only way that sin can be paid for is through death, so Accepting the death of Christ is the only way to possibly go to heaven, it's not just arbitrarily deciding that only people from a certain group will go. There are also peopel who claim to be practicing Christians that aren't as well.

So you believe that over half of the population that have declared they are not Christian are going to hell?...I believe in 1990 the number was somewhere around 60% of people are not Christian...Now if you add people who claim they are Christian but aren't really practicing...we that jumps it to at least 70%....hmmmm, anyone else see a problem with this belief?

[Mr Bean]

Acutal its even Higher than that, Consider the 2000 Numbers you have roughly 6.4 Billion people and roughly 400 Million Christians of Various Denminations and you see quite a few people going to hell

Not to mention those that break the rules of the Bible thus sending them to hell or Good Chrisitans doing bad things sending them to hell and the off-chance the Mormons are right reducing that people going to roughly less than 100k

I alwaysed like the South Park Take on Religion

At Church the Boys Learn about Hell yaadaa yadda
Then zooms down to hell abunch of people standing around while what looks like one of those Preppy Voniuter types stands in front of them with a Clip Board
Offical: Ok everyone I know your all a little suprized but Welcome to Hell
(Angrey Mumering from Crowd)
Offical: Some of you did bad things that got you sent here
(Zooms to knife Murder shaking his head and hitting himself)
Offical: But belive me we made no mistake your all supposed to be here in hell
Hindiu:What just a minute I don't in belive in Hell!
Man:Yeah and I was a Good Christian
Offical: Oh I'm sorry boys your both Gulity of the same Crime
Man: That is?
Offical: Worsphing tine Wrong Religion
(A few oohs and ahhs form the crowd)
Hindiu: Well what is the correct Religio?
Offical: Well I'm sorry but God Clearly Left Signs marked the Correct Religion is Moromism
Crowd:Oooohh(And the file into a pit of fire)

[C.S.Strowbridge]

So if I don't get in the boat I drown. So god made the disaster,

the disaster is sin, and all humans have sinned

What makes you say all humans have sinned? Oh that's right. God said so.

But who decides what is a sin? Oh that's right. God does.

But at least someone else is in charge of the punishment, right? Nope, God decided all sinners must go to hell.

But of course God has no responsibility for us going to hell, cause he's given us a way to get into heaven. By obeying ever command he gives.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Acutal its even Higher than that, Consider the 2000 Numbers you have roughly 6.4 Billion people and roughly 400 Million Christians of Various Denminations and you see quite a few people going to hell

There's actually more like a billion 'christians,' (IIRC that's the figure for catholics alone). But that's still only 1/6 of the population.

For the sinking ship analogy:
If God gives everyone the chance to choose whether or not to enter the boat, then what about people who have never even heard of Jesus? Much of the world has no idea who he is or what his message is, and they'll die without ever knowing. Apparently God hates the ignorant as much as he hates rapists and murderers.

[Mr Bean]

There's actually more like a billion 'christians,' (IIRC that's the figure for catholics alone

Realy? Where are these Billion Catholics? Hmm Catholic count in America is under 40 Million According to 2000 Census(Baptist had more I belive), Then theres the Euopean Nations but does that acutal count people who Go to church or go back to Church more than once? I remeber my local Church Claimed over a thousand memebers at one point when I asked how they said they had counted everyone who showed up for one Month, Even week I ask? No just if they showed up at all anytime during that month they where counted...

[Darth Wong]

the disaster is sin, and all humans have sinned

By using "sin" as a justification for eternal torture, you are saying that all humans have sinned grievously enough to warrant such unbelievable punishment. Justify that claim without resorting to morally abhorrent concepts such as "all sins are the same" or "inherited guilt".

Besides, you are wandering away from the point, which is that your God is a fascist. There are no human rights. No due process. No trial by your peers. No feedback from the masses to the divine bureaucracy/leader. No way of redressing sins committed by the divine bureacracy/leader against the people. No freedom of thought. No freedom of speech. Arbitrary victimless "crimes" are defined and then brutally punished based only on the bogus moral authority of the divine bureaucracy/leadership (eg- prostitution, premarital sex). That is a model template for fascism!

What you are doing now is the same thing that every fundie does when cornered: blather on about your beliefs. When challenged, you describe your belief system. When asked questions, you describe your belief system. When stymied by a point you cannot answer logically, you describe your belief system. Every fucking fundie argument invariably becomes "Christ died for us, God saves us with his perfect love, the only way to salvation is ... yadda yadda yadda", stated as a fact even if that "fact" is the very subject under dispute. You put conclusion before argument, the cart before the horse.

Like all fundies, you're a broken record whose only method of "debate" is to turn any and every conversation into a mindless recital of what you learned in Sunday School.

[RedImperator]

The poli-sci major in me compells me to pick one little nit: fascist refers to a political philosophy in which the state and the "race" are bound together, and the leader is actually the living embodiment of the will and authority of the people; and the government that's based on that philosophy. So God wouldn't be a fascist. And he's not a monarch, because true monarchs draw their power from their supposed status as divine proxies. God rules by sheer brute force, with no philosophical justification past, "I made you, and I'm more powerful than you so you have to do what I say."

Therefore, God is a despot, not a fascist, because God claims ZERO justification for His power. And yes, other than this semantic nitpick, Lord Wong is right. God, as described in the Bible (and the Koran), is a textbook despot--"Follow my arbitrary commands, or I'll burn you in hell forever" isn't any different at all from "Follow my arbitrary commands, or I'll throw you in jail/toss you to the lions/burn you at the stake/stand you up in front of a firing squad"

[starfury]

The poli-sci major in me compells me to pick one little nit: fascist refers to a political philosophy in which the state and the "race" are bound together, and the leader is actually the living embodiment of the will and authority of the people; and the government that's based on that philosophy. So God wouldn't be a fascist. And he's not a monarch, because true monarchs draw their power from their supposed status as divine proxies. God rules by sheer brute force, with no philosophical justification past, "I made you, and I'm more powerful than you so you have to do what I say."

Therefore, God is a despot, not a fascist, because God claims ZERO justification for His power. And yes, other than this semantic nitpick, Lord Wong is right. God, as described in the Bible (and the Koran), is a textbook despot--"Follow my arbitrary commands, or I'll burn you in hell forever" isn't any different at all from "Follow my arbitrary commands, or I'll throw you in jail/toss you to the lions/burn you at the stake/stand you up in front of a firing squad"

wow, in that context god has essantially even less philosophical right to rule then even a fascist, who are supposed as you said to be the living embodiment of the will of the people, he is just a brutal despot.

[Nick]

There's actually more like a billion 'christians,' (IIRC that's the figure for catholics alone

Realy? Where are these Billion Catholics? Hmm Catholic count in America is under 40 Million According to 2000 Census(Baptist had more I belive), Then theres the Euopean Nations but does that acutal count people who Go to church or go back to Church more than once? I remeber my local Church Claimed over a thousand memebers at one point when I asked how they said they had counted everyone who showed up for one Month, Even week I ask? No just if they showed up at all anytime during that month they where counted...

Africa, South America, Asia

The prestige of the Catholic Church is dwindling in Western nations - a quick look at the numbers of people entering the seminary and religious orders is enough to reveal that. The precepts of liberal democracy just don't sit well with the ideas of the Catholic Church's rigid, heirarchy-based system of morality.

Regardless, when you look at the population distribution of the world, Europe, North America and Australia (i.e. most of the landmass containing 'Western' nations) account for a relatively small portion of the people.