Fascism and Monotheism

[AdmiralKanos]

Realy? Where are these Billion Catholics?

Africa, South America, Asia

Isn't it interesting how the Catholic Church has been making its biggest gains in Africa, in the midst of tin-pot dictators, corrupt warlords, poverty and misery? There are certain environments where their particular brand of anti-humanistic dogma can be quite successful.

[Stravo]

Realy? Where are these Billion Catholics?

Africa, South America, Asia

Isn't it interesting how the Catholic Church has been making its biggest gains in Africa, in the midst of tin-pot dictators, corrupt warlords, poverty and misery? There are certain environments where their particular brand of anti-humanistic dogma can be quite successful.

I think it has to do more with general poverty and eductaional levels. The Catholic dogma is particularly attractive to the poor and downtrodden because it promises hope and salvation. You may be suffering in this life but in the next you will be rewarded for all of your suffering. The meek shall inherit the earth...

Now in the western world, we are far more affluent and well educated. The Catholic message becomes a little more restrictive for the haves: "Its easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven" There is also the parable of the richman who tells Jesus that he wants to join him, what must he do to be a disciple. Without batting an eye, Jesus says: "Give up everything you own and follow me." The rich man could not do it. So the message becomes stark for some folks, if your rich, the church only has one real use for you - your money.

Education is another vital factor. IMHO education means questioning the things you know, breaking them down and examing them, you are NOT educated in my mind if all you can do is read and write or you've memroized Shakesspeare's sonnets. Education teaches you HOW to think. So when one starts analyzing the dogmas of the faith, you have to have ALOT of faith to still believe, after all there are some pretty big holes in the story that can SOLELY be filled in by faith. You simply cannot prove OR disprove the Christian faith through the scientific method. It is what it is.

So in these third world nations you have folks who have little or no education so they tend to accept things on face value and they don't really question their faith.

I believe these are the true reasons why the Catholic faith does so well in the devloping world. NOT because of tin potted dictators and fascism, etc. There are reasons beyond that. The church brings these people hope and possible salvation. Roll your eyes if you want, but it is obviously working for these people and there is a reason why the message has lasted as long as it has and spread as far and wide as it has.

[Resident Creationist]

For the sinking ship analogy:
If God gives everyone the chance to choose whether or not to enter the boat, then what about people who have never even heard of Jesus? Much of the world has no idea who he is or what his message is, and they'll die without ever knowing. Apparently God hates the ignorant as much as he hates rapists and murderers.

Well, some will obiously get way more of an opportunity to learn than others, so if some guy gets one chance, for example, and another get hundreds, then the guy who had more of an opportunity will be held more accountable.

"Its easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven" There is also the parable of the richman who tells Jesus that he wants to join him, what must he do to be a disciple. Without batting an eye, Jesus says: "Give up everything you own and follow me." The rich man could not do it. So the message becomes stark for some folks, if your rich, the church only has one real use for you - your money.

it's all about context. The issue wasn't so mcuh about having money in and of itself, I tihnk a large part of it wsa being greedy in terms of money. Also, after Jesus made his statement about the eye of the needle, Peter asked "but then who can be saved?" that obviously showed that rich was a loose definition there. I forget the response, but it was basically that no man can make it through ALONE, and that it would be even harder for those who were richer.

What you are doing now is the same thing that every fundie does when cornered: blather on about your beliefs. When challenged, you describe your belief system. When asked questions, you describe your belief system. When stymied by a point you cannot answer logically, you describe your belief system. Every fucking fundie argument invariably becomes "Christ died for us, God saves us with his perfect love, the only way to salvation is ... yadda yadda yadda", stated as a fact even if that "fact" is the very subject under dispute. You put conclusion before argument, the cart before the horse.

Like all fundies, you're a broken record whose only method of "debate" is to turn any and every conversation into a mindless recital of what you learned in Sunday School.

the whole debate is if the BELIEF SYSTEM is Fascist or not, so it's not wandering off topic. And saying that I can't recite that Belief System in a thread about it is begging the question.

[kojikun]

to sum this all up, god is the pic at goatse.cx. AKA a big asshole.

[Steve]

Realy? Where are these Billion Catholics?

Africa, South America, Asia

Isn't it interesting how the Catholic Church has been making its biggest gains in Africa, in the midst of tin-pot dictators, corrupt warlords, poverty and misery? There are certain environments where their particular brand of anti-humanistic dogma can be quite successful.

Well, one of the aids is the whole "paradise afterlife" perk for believers, really appeals to the types who are starving and working their asses off just to live.

[kojikun]

>> guaranteed paradise

This is why christianity is so popular. People want to get paradise for doing nothing. I mean, come on, christianity doesnt even require you to be good, you could sin all you want as long as you repent and a priest absolves you! Morals and sin mean nothing to christians, theyre just bullshit excuses to persecute others who don't fit their little perfect world view.

[Alyrium Denryle]

The problem with christian salvation is that if you dont worship jesus you will go tohell, no mater how good a person you where inlife. I could throw myself infront of a barrage of bullets for either the person that I love or a complete stranger, and according to this religion what happens to me(A gay Athiest) I go to hell, no better than a murderer, rapist, or Hitler(actually according to some dogma because he was a catholic, he goes to heaven) How fucked up is that.

[Next of Kin]

actually according to some dogma because he was a catholic, he goes to heaven

Really? Is this Catholic dogma? Could you point me towards the source as I'm interested in reading more.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Oh wait never mind, suicide is an automatic trip to hell, and I dont know whether or not he was absolved or how often he confessed his sins.

IIRC in the catholic church you can be the most evil POS possible but if you are absolved by a priest you are forgiven, though he wasnt absolved so my point doesnt hold water.

[Stravo]

>> guaranteed paradise

This is why christianity is so popular. People want to get paradise for doing nothing. I mean, come on, christianity doesnt even require you to be good, you could sin all you want as long as you repent and a priest absolves you! Morals and sin mean nothing to christians, theyre just bullshit excuses to persecute others who don't fit their little perfect world view.

Before you go on your little tirade against do-nothing Christinianity I think you should actually read their book...the bible and see if in it Christ says..."Do nothing but believe in me and you shall go to paradise." I guess the whole Love you neighbor as yourself, turn the other cheek and give to the poor is nothing. I guess the whole Catholic ideal of man doing all he can for his fellow man, not killing, stealing, adultery and all the other 10 commandments, that's nothing too.

Oh, that's right, there aren't Catholic missionaries out in the most destitute parts in the world doing their damned best to help the poor and starving while the rest of the western world (the supposed cradle of Christainity) goes on its merry way leading the world in obesity, fast food, exploitation of the masses and degradation of the environment. Yeah...they do NOTHING.

THINK before you post.

"I find your lack of intelligence disturbing"

[kojikun]

Stravo, it is you who needs to think before posting. I never said there were no good messages or that christians don't do anything, I said christianity doesnt REQUIRE you to because you can be absolved of sin. Absolution means you can be the laziest greediest rudest mass murderer in history but you can still get into heaven. Sure, not everyone is like that, but then again most people ARENT "good" christians simply because believing makes them "saved".

[Stravo]

Stravo, it is you who needs to think before posting. I never said there were no good messages or that christians don't do anything, I said christianity doesnt REQUIRE you to because you can be absolved of sin. Absolution means you can be the laziest greediest rudest mass murderer in history but you can still get into heaven. Sure, not everyone is like that, but then again most people ARENT "good" christians simply because believing makes them "saved".

You are equating one of the biggest differences between Catholicism and Judiasm and other branches of Christainity, the sacrament of reconciliation. You are indeed REQUIRED to follow the dictates of Christ and his church, BUT the church recognizes as Jesus did that we are ALL sinners and that no one is perfect and no one will be able to follow all the rules. We will do wrong but guess what? God loves us and through his love he can forgive us. Forgiveness is at the HEART of Christian thought. Jesus was about Forgiveness. There is a wonderful scene in Last Temptation of Christ where John the Baptist tells Jesus to be like an axe, the messiah must chop down the rotten tree of Judiaism. Christ responds that he is not an axe, he is a heart and all he can do is love. Not canon I know but damn if it doesn't sum up the crux of the conflict that many saw in jesus as Messiah. The jews were expecting a warrior messiah, instaed they got a messiah who came to love everyone, sinner, gentile or jew.

It is cynical to believe that Hitler would receive the sacrament not truly be sorry and go to heaven. If there is no true penance, if you really aren't sorry you can go to confession a THOUSAND times, you're still going to hell. HOWEVER, if Hitler were truly sorry and atoned, then he is forgiven, it is simple as that. God loves us all, even Hitler. We cannot even begin to comprehend a love that deep and powerful.

If you want to believe a priest that he is the only way to go to heaven and all you have to do is go into a dark little room and tell him your dirty little secrets the go right ahead...but then you missed the point.

[Darth Wong]

Like all fundies, you're a broken record whose only method of "debate" is to turn any and every conversation into a mindless recital of what you learned in Sunday School.

the whole debate is if the BELIEF SYSTEM is Fascist or not, so it's not wandering off topic. And saying that I can't recite that Belief System in a thread about it is begging the question.

Don't be ridiculous. The debate is whether the Bible depicts the "kingdom of God" as a fascist state. The dogmatic manner in which you've been taught to interpret the Bible is your problem, and you cannot defend it against alternate interpretations or negative characterizations by simply stating it as fact. Do you get it now, or must I explain it in even simpler terms for you?

[Darth Wong]

You are equating one of the biggest differences between Catholicism and Judiasm and other branches of Christainity, the sacrament of reconciliation. You are indeed REQUIRED to follow the dictates of Christ and his church, BUT the church recognizes as Jesus did that we are ALL sinners and that no one is perfect and no one will be able to follow all the rules. We will do wrong but guess what? God loves us and through his love he can forgive us. Forgiveness is at the HEART of Christian thought. Jesus was about Forgiveness. There is a wonderful scene in Last Temptation of Christ where John the Baptist tells Jesus to be like an axe, the messiah must chop down the rotten tree of Judiaism. Christ responds that he is not an axe, he is a heart and all he can do is love. Not canon I know but damn if it doesn't sum up the crux of the conflict that many saw in jesus as Messiah. The jews were expecting a warrior messiah, instaed they got a messiah who came to love everyone, sinner, gentile or jew.

Yadda yadda yadda. How does any of this disprove the claim that the Biblical God is a classic fascist, ie- brutal despot? Let me reiterate the key points once more:

• No freedom of thought
• Thought crimes punishable by torture
• No way of redressings crimes committed by the leader against the people
• No accountability for the leader whatsoever
• No due process

If this were the case in any country on Earth, we would not hesitate to label it an evil dictatorship. Yet every one of these conditions exists in the afterlife which God "lovingly" created for us, and no one dares call a spade a spade. Instead, we are treated to regurgitations of Sunday school sloganeering.

It is cynical to believe that Hitler would receive the sacrament not truly be sorry and go to heaven. If there is no true penance, if you really aren't sorry you can go to confession a THOUSAND times, you're still going to hell.

Being sorry does not eliminate the need for punishment under a system of proper justice. Your system is unjust. Similarly, a lack of sorrow over a minor crime is no reason to subject someone to extreme torture, since the punishment does not fit the crime. Again, your system is unjust.

HOWEVER, if Hitler were truly sorry and atoned, then he is forgiven, it is simple as that. God loves us all, even Hitler. We cannot even begin to comprehend a love that deep and powerful.

Or a contempt that deep and powerful for Hitler's victims, since God puts you in Heaven or Hell based strictly on your loyalty and obedience to him, and all other criteria (read: earthly crimes) are ignored. Classic fascist mode of thought: "loyalty is morality".

[Captain Cyran]

The Bible was written in a time where Fascist governments and their ilk were the main. I must agree that the Bible states that it is, but as a Christian I cannot myself believe in a God that gives people no free will. As such I think of the Bible as just a book which tells an interesting story and gives some ideas on how you should react to certain situations, usually the most used of these examples would be in the New Testament where things were a lot less violent, chaotic, meant as a form of religious history rather then stories of life.

[Peregrin Toker]

Actually, many polytheistic religions can be considered fascist as well, since most of the Indo-European pantheons are dominated by an "Over-God" who rules over the other gods. Jupiter/Zeus in the Greco-Roman pantheon, for example. However, in some polytheistic religions, such as the Nordic-Germanic pantheon, the power is - according to some sources (far from all) more or less equally distributed amongst several main deities (mainly Odin, Thor and Frey)...

[Darik Sdair]

Actually, many polytheistic religions can be considered fascist as well, since most of the Indo-European pantheons are dominated by an "Over-God" who rules over the other gods. Jupiter/Zeus in the Greco-Roman pantheon, for example. However, in some polytheistic religions, such as the Nordic-Germanic pantheon, the power is - according to some sources (far from all) more or less equally distributed amongst several main deities (mainly Odin, Thor and Frey)...

Its not terribly surprising, since many ancient societies would be close to if not actually within the category of "fascist state."

[XPViking]

Kind of interesting people projecting a style of government onto the organization of different pantheons. Funny how the Greeks who are credited with democracy worshipped a pantheon of gods who were most certainly not.

XPViking

[Darth Yoshi]

I think the city-state of Athens was unique in that it had some trappings of democracy, especially sompared to say, Sparta.

[XPViking]

Darth Yoshi,

Sure. Athens is considered the "birthplace of democracy", right? But they worshipped gods who weren't. That's all my point was about.

XPViking

[Mr Bean]

Sure. Athens is considered the "birthplace of democracy", right? But they worshipped gods who weren't. That's all my point was about.

But thats my point flip it around sure there WAS an Over-God but he was not all powerful

Lookat Zeus.. If he was allpowerful how come he had to keep sneaking off to get Mortal Women, Why not(Sorry to say this) say Look $&&$ I want some Mortal Tonight, I'm the allpowerful, I'll be back in time for Dinner!

Greek and Roman Gods(Bascily the same) where not a Fasist state becaue of the Seperate Rulers, Heck there are even Myths of the Gods getting Togther and talking things over and some(Norse Mytholgy comes to mind) where it was a regular thing for the *Concile of the Gods to get togther and talk things over and even the most powerful of them where somtimes beaten by Mortals or Other Beings(Giants come to mind)

[XPViking]

Greek and Roman Gods(Bascily the same) where not a Fasist state becaue of the Seperate Rulers, Heck there are even Myths of the Gods getting Togther and talking things over and some(Norse Mytholgy comes to mind) where it was a regular thing for the *Concile of the Gods to get togther and talk things over and even the most powerful of them where somtimes beaten by Mortals or Other Beings(Giants come to mind) - Mr. Bean

Seperate Rulers? Perhaps you mean that each god and goddess had their own sphere of interest, but make no mistake, Zeus was large and in charge. As far as a council of the Gods go, sure, perhaps they get together to discuss things themselves. In that sense, each god would get a say. But I haven't seen of any instance of where the beings who were ruled (that is, mortals) get a vote to decide which god they want in office.

XPViking

[Mr Bean]

Seperate Rulers? Perhaps you mean that each god and goddess had their own sphere of interest, but make no mistake, Zeus was large and in charge. As far as a council of the Gods go, sure, perhaps they get together to discuss things themselves. In that sense, each god would get a say. But I haven't seen of any instance of where the beings who were ruled (that is, mortals) get a vote to decide which god they want in office.

Because they never real came up however Godly Issues WHERE moderated by Mortals Witness the event which started the Illead and the Odyssey of the Beautiy Contest between the gods and you notice the Loosers never touched him

And besides from the Gods point of view we are twelve year olds squabbling over whos turn is it to watch TV do you want that kind of person decideding the fate of the world?

No?
Thats why the voting age is 18 not 12

[XPViking]

Because they never real came up however Godly Issues WHERE moderated by Mortals Witness the event which started the Illead and the Odyssey of the Beautiy Contest between the gods and you notice the Loosers never touched him - Mr. Bean

Forgot about that one. The contestants were only trying to bribe the judge. What a minute? Isn't this democracy in action?

And besides from the Gods point of view we are twelve year olds squabbling over whos turn is it to watch TV do you want that kind of person decideding the fate of the world?

No?
Thats why the voting age is 18 not 12 - Mr. Bean

Now that is a very interesting observation.

XPViking

[Mr Bean]

Forgot about that one. The contestants were only trying to bribe the judge. What a minute? Isn't this democracy in action?

Well this was a personal issue to be fair and a realy hard one at that short of a game of eni-meni-mieni-mo I don't see how else he could have decided so prehaps who could give the best Bribe would be a good System