ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

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ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

Post by Lagmonster »

At some point, we're going to either have to just create one giant sticky thread entitled "Stupid shit Texas does" or else just put up a moratorium on Texas.

This time, the Institute for Creation Research, backed by a certain fundie state rep, is pushing hard to have their Creationists Masters of Science degrees accepted as 'equal to those of other Texas universities'. I have doubts as to whether this would even come close to making it through, but apparently the tactic du jour is the next step up from faking scientific credentials; getting government to validate their fake credentials.

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Bill Would Allow Texas School to Grant Master's Degree in Science for Creationism
Wednesday, March 18, 2009

By Nora Zimmett

A Texas legislator is waging a war of biblical proportions against the science and education communities in the Lone Star State as he fights for a bill that would allow a private school that teaches creationism to grant a Master of Science degree in the subject.

State Rep. Leo Berman (R-Tyler) proposed House Bill 2800 when he learned that The Institute for Creation Research (ICR), a private institution that specializes in the education and research of biblical creationism, was not able to receive a certificate of authority from Texas' Higher Education Coordinating Board to grant Master of Science degrees.

Berman's bill would allow private, non-profit educational institutions to be exempt from the board’s authority.

“If you don’t take any federal funds, if you don’t take any state funds, you can do a lot more than some business that does take state funding or federal funding,” Berman says. “Why should you be regulated if you don’t take any state or federal funding?”

HB 2800 does not specifically name ICR; it would allow any institution that meets its criteria to be exempt from the board's authority. But Berman says ICR was the inspiration for the bill because he feels creationism is as scientific as evolution and should be granted equal weight in the educational community.

“I don’t believe I came from a salamander that crawled out of a swamp millions of years ago,” Berman told FOXNews.com. "I do believe in creationism. I do believe there are gaps in evolution.

"But when you ask someone who believes in evolution, if you ask one of the elitists who believes in evolution about the gaps, they’ll tell you that the debate is over, that there is no debate, evolution is the thing, it’s the only way to go.”

But critics say that Berman’s bill will be disastrous if it passes.

“This would open the door to other fly-by-night organizations that come in and want to award degrees in our state, because the bill is highly generalized,” said Steven Schafersman, president of Texas Citizens for Science.

“Right now, we don’t have this problem in Texas. Texas is not a center for degree mills, because our laws allow only the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board to approve the granting of graduate degrees.”

“It would certainly open the door to all kinds of chicanery,” says Eugenie Scott, Executive Director of the National Center for Science Education. “I mean, all you have to do, it looks to me from the bill, is start a non-profit organization, don’t take any federal or state money, and then offer degrees in any fool subject you want.”

Schafersman fears that amending state law to accommodate institutions such as ICR would devalue Texas graduate degrees.

“The degrees would substandard, worthless, but they would be certified by Texas,” he said.

All colleges and universities granting degrees in Texas currently must be issued a certificate of authority by the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board (THECB). The certificate allows that institution to grant a higher education degree that is recognized by the state – a degree a graduate would need to apply for a teaching position in a Texas public school.

ICR was denied a certificate of authority in 2007.

HB 2800 would pave the way for institutions like ICR to grant science degrees equal to those of other Texas universities. And that possibility has critics fuming.

“Their science education degrees are greatly inferior to those at, say, the University of Texas or Baylor University or even a good community college, frankly,” says Scott. “Teaching that the Earth is only 10,000 years old is a little irregular in modern science.”

The ICR issued a statement affirming that it is a legitimate educational institute that employs credentialed Ph.D. scientists from around the country. It insisted that the “THECB has acted discriminatorily against the ICR’s application both in process and in the substance of fact,” and it said “THECB allowed influence of evolution-biased lobbying efforts to influence process and outcome.”

The coordinating board denies any wrongdoing and says Berman’s bill is a slippery slope for higher education in Texas.

“HB 2800 appears to open the doors of Texas to predatory institutions,” says De Juana Lozada, assistant director of communications for THECB. “Were the bill to become law, it could have the effect of leaving students defenseless against exploitation by diploma mills and other substandard institutions.

"The Coordinating Board just last year eased restrictions on legitimate institutions of higher education desiring to operate in Texas. For legitimate institutions, the legislation is completely unnecessary.”

Berman sees the board's decision to deny ICR certification as a double standard.

“If a school’s teaching all evolution, would that be a balanced education?” he asked. “So it’s the same thing on both ends of the stick.”

But advocates of more conventional science education say the THECB was right to deny ICR certification and that Berman’s motives in introducing the bill were simply to reward an institution loyal to him.

“You just can’t play fast and loose with the rules that everyone has to follow just to favor a constituent,” says Scott. “I think the people of Texas should be very concerned about this issue.”

While HB 2800 makes its way through the legislature, ICR and the THECB will continue their mediation before a Texas state judge. Insiders say that if the mediation does not go their way, ICR will sue the board.
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Re: ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

Post by The Spartan »

For all our faults, Texas actually has a good high education system. If this passes it would wreck that.

This makes me very nervous.
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Re: ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

Post by Zor »

The Spartan wrote:For all our faults, Texas actually has a good high education system. If this passes it would wreck that.

This makes me very nervous.
Possibly this factor could be used as a weapon against this sort of bullshit among the fence sitters. Explain to people that Creation Science would devalue the status of a Texas Diploma as employers will no longer take Texan universities seriously if they consider creation science a legit science.

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Re: ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

Post by Lusankya »

Lagmonster wrote: “If you don’t take any federal funds, if you don’t take any state funds, you can do a lot more than some business that does take state funding or federal funding,” Berman says. “Why should you be regulated if you don’t take any state or federal funding?”
By this logic, this person probably doesn't approve of Occ. Health and Safety regulations for businesses that don't accept government funding (i.e. most of them), regulation for car safety standards for auto manufacturers that don't take government funding, regulations for truth in advertising standards for businesses that don't accept government funding, etc.

Oh, wait. He's a Republican. He probably does disapprove.

Seriously, though, it's a retarded argument. Certain things require regulations in order to provide decent services. Imagine if this guy was making the exact same argument, except in reference to a private Medical School. It just wouldn't fly. People would say, "Hang on. I want my doctor to be trained properly." The standard the public sets for science degrees should be at least equal for that. Higher, even, perhaps, since at least an incompetent doctor can be sued for malpractice. Incompetent scientists can just write a book about how they were cast out by The Establishment and then make $$$ off of ignorant people.
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Re: ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

Post by Gaidin »

RE article: I don't get it. There are already unaccredited diploma mills. Is there some administrative leap in this article I'm missing where they're trying to skip accreditation but still be accredited?
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Re: ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

Post by General Zod »

Gaidin wrote:RE article: I don't get it. There are already unaccredited diploma mills. Is there some administrative leap in this article I'm missing where they're trying to skip accreditation but still be accredited?
The moron in the article is trying to get diploma mills recognition, is the thing. He basically wants lessened educational standards because he's one of those mindless middle douchebags who thinks creationism isn't getting a fair shake by the system.
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Re: ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

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Lagmonster wrote:At some point, we're going to either have to just create one giant sticky thread entitled "Stupid shit Texas does" or else just put up a moratorium on Texas.
Texas hasn't done anything yet, hasn't enacted the bill yet, so your comment "Stupid shit Texas does" is premature.
(A) Bill (in the House of Representatives) Would Allow Texas School to Grant Master's Degree in Science for Creationism

Berman's bill would allow private, non-profit educational institutions to be exempt from the board’s authority.
Not a good thing. The previous post by Lusankya making the analogy to a med school was right on point.
“Why should you be regulated if you don’t take any state or federal funding?”
Just plain dumb and illogical. All sorts of professions and organizations, the majority I would say, don't accept state or federal money and are regulated. Even universities with religious connections play by the rules and offer degrees pursuant to regulation by the THECB.
“I don’t believe I came from a salamander that crawled out of a swamp millions of years ago,”..."I do believe in creationism. I do believe there are gaps in evolution.
From the inteligence he's displaying, or lack thereof, his salamander just crawled out of the swamp a few years ago. (lol)
“You just can’t play fast and loose with the rules that everyone has to follow just to favor a constituent,” says Scott. “I think the people of Texas should be very concerned about this issue.”
Well, I'm concerned enough to send off a letter to my state rep. and senator. I don't think the bill has a prayer of passing, but I'd rather be pro-active than just a bump on a log.
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Re: ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

Post by Kanastrous »

Tahlan wrote:
Lagmonster wrote:At some point, we're going to either have to just create one giant sticky thread entitled "Stupid shit Texas does" or else just put up a moratorium on Texas.
Texas hasn't done anything yet, hasn't enacted the bill yet, so your comment "Stupid shit Texas does" is premature.
They're discussing it. Even discussing such a move is stupid-shit thing to do.
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Re: ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

Post by TheFeniX »

Kanastrous wrote:
Tahlan wrote:
Lagmonster wrote:At some point, we're going to either have to just create one giant sticky thread entitled "Stupid shit Texas does" or else just put up a moratorium on Texas.
Texas hasn't done anything yet, hasn't enacted the bill yet, so your comment "Stupid shit Texas does" is premature.
They're discussing it. Even discussing such a move is stupid-shit thing to do.
It's being sponsored by a rep from Tyler. While not exactly out in the sticks, Tyler is about on par with Waco. It's unlikely (but not unfeasible) you would see a bill like this backed by a rep from Houston or Austin. Still, I think Texas will be better off when that whole generation throws in the towel.
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Re: ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

Post by Patrick Degan »

TheFeniX wrote:It's being sponsored by a rep from Tyler. While not exactly out in the sticks, Tyler is about on par with Waco. It's unlikely (but not unfeasible) you would see a bill like this backed by a rep from Houston or Austin. Still, I think Texas will be better off when that whole generation throws in the towel.
Sadly, they're most likely bringing up another generation of idiots to carry on the fight. Just like the current crop of partisans demanding anti-atheist/anti-evolution textbooks for Texas are carrying on the fight pursued by Neil Gabler and his whack-a-loon wife from years before.
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Re: ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

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Texas has been an ultra-conservative shithole for its entire history. I'm sure Northern liberals were hopeful that it would join the rest of the country after the Civil War too, but it ain't gonna happen, at least not in the foreseeable future. Their entire culture seems to be heavily infused with resentment at the more enlightened parts of the country and a spiteful refusal to do the things those other people do, if for no other reason than to remind themselves that they're special.
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Re: ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

Post by Zwinmar »

I always thought that that kind of thing fell under philosophy/religion, and I know they have degrees for that.
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Re: ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

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Darth Wong wrote:Texas has been an ultra-conservative shithole for its entire history. I'm sure Northern liberals were hopeful that it would join the rest of the country after the Civil War too, but it ain't gonna happen, at least not in the foreseeable future. Their entire culture seems to be heavily infused with resentment at the more enlightened parts of the country and a spiteful refusal to do the things those other people do, if for no other reason than to remind themselves that they're special.
Well, I've heard it claimed that the increasing number of Hispanics in the state (who tend to vote Democrat), may make it competative for the Democrats soon. I don't know if that's true though. It would be interesting to see supporting statistics though, as losing Texas while the Democrats keep California and New York would be a pretty big nail in the coffin for the GOP as far as Electoral College math is concerned.
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Re: ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

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I think it's slightly amusing that the Google ad for this thread leads to http://www.mnu.edu/
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Re: ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

Post by Lagmonster »

Since it's a reasonable topic but a divergence, I split the OHS discussion to its own thread so it can continue.
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Re: ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Texas hasn't done anything yet, hasn't enacted the bill yet, so your comment "Stupid shit Texas does" is premature.
Considering what is going on in our school board, I dont think it is. I am pretty sure that the statement is rather apt.
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Re: ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

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The Romulan Republic wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Texas has been an ultra-conservative shithole for its entire history. I'm sure Northern liberals were hopeful that it would join the rest of the country after the Civil War too, but it ain't gonna happen, at least not in the foreseeable future. Their entire culture seems to be heavily infused with resentment at the more enlightened parts of the country and a spiteful refusal to do the things those other people do, if for no other reason than to remind themselves that they're special.
Well, I've heard it claimed that the increasing number of Hispanics in the state (who tend to vote Democrat), may make it competative for the Democrats soon. I don't know if that's true though. It would be interesting to see supporting statistics though, as losing Texas while the Democrats keep California and New York would be a pretty big nail in the coffin for the GOP as far as Electoral College math is concerned.
That doesn't mean it would be any less of an ultra-conservative shithole. Democrat != Liberal. And these hispanics are just as likely to be fundies, if not more so.
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Re: ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

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Zwinmar wrote:I always thought that that kind of thing fell under philosophy/religion, and I know they have degrees for that.
I think the problem is that these characters want what is basically a philosophy/religion degree (to whatever degree it can be called 'philosophy') to be accepted as equal to a hard-sciences degree from a regular university.

That is, they want a degree earned (for example) by learning that the world was created in seven days by divine fiat (as per scripture) to be in all ways equal for professional purposes to a degree earned by learning that the earth formed over billions of years according to natural processes (as per physical evidence and conclusions drawn from it via application of scientific methodology).
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Re: ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

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Kanastrous wrote:
Zwinmar wrote:I always thought that that kind of thing fell under philosophy/religion, and I know they have degrees for that.
I think the problem is that these characters want what is basically a philosophy/religion degree (to whatever degree it can be called 'philosophy') to be accepted as equal to a hard-sciences degree from a regular university.

That is, they want a degree earned (for example) by learning that the world was created in seven days by divine fiat (as per scripture) to be in all ways equal for professional purposes to a degree earned by learning that the earth formed over billions of years according to natural processes (as per physical evidence and conclusions drawn from it via application of scientific methodology).
I hope they're not IDers, which is a step down in honesty from Creationists. Creationists at least have the nerve to say that the beliefs they teach are based on faith in scriptures and shun scientific explanation, whereas IDers will tell you with a straight face that their conclusions are drawn from objective scientific analysis, which is so much bullshit that we'd have to classify a new species of bull based on digestive capacity and output. A 'science degree' which tried to use scientific concepts to illustrate evidence of design in nature would literally create a mockery of science education.
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Re: ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Darth Wong wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Texas has been an ultra-conservative shithole for its entire history. I'm sure Northern liberals were hopeful that it would join the rest of the country after the Civil War too, but it ain't gonna happen, at least not in the foreseeable future. Their entire culture seems to be heavily infused with resentment at the more enlightened parts of the country and a spiteful refusal to do the things those other people do, if for no other reason than to remind themselves that they're special.
Well, I've heard it claimed that the increasing number of Hispanics in the state (who tend to vote Democrat), may make it competative for the Democrats soon. I don't know if that's true though. It would be interesting to see supporting statistics though, as losing Texas while the Democrats keep California and New York would be a pretty big nail in the coffin for the GOP as far as Electoral College math is concerned.
That doesn't mean it would be any less of an ultra-conservative shithole. Democrat != Liberal. And these hispanics are just as likely to be fundies, if not more so.
I suppose, but if demographics are changing, it does mean that the dominant Texas culture might not stay the same indefinitely. Just to take an optimistic point of view.
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Re: ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

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Kanastrous wrote:
Tahlan wrote:
Lagmonster wrote:At some point, we're going to either have to just create one giant sticky thread entitled "Stupid shit Texas does" or else just put up a moratorium on Texas.
Texas hasn't done anything yet, hasn't enacted the bill yet, so your comment "Stupid shit Texas does" is premature.
They're discussing it. Even discussing such a move is stupid-shit thing to do.
One (1) State Representative out of 150 State Reps. has sponsored the bill in the House. You would condemn an entire state because of the folly of one man?

My bet, the bill dies in the House and never makes it to the Senate. The only question is will its demise be slow and agonizing, or quick and painless?

Right now, the bill is in committee. I seriously doubt it will ever make it out.
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Re: ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

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Tahlan wrote:One (1) State Representative out of 150 State Reps. has sponsored the bill in the House. You would condemn an entire state because of the folly of one man?
Texas has a well known history of trying to push hyper-religious/conservative bullshit through on a frighteningly regular basis, whether from the elected officials or the general populace; a frightening amount of the time they actually manage to succeed. You don't seriously think this is out of the norm for that state's behavior do you?
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Re: ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

Post by Zwinmar »

Lagmonster wrote:
Kanastrous wrote:
Zwinmar wrote:I always thought that that kind of thing fell under philosophy/religion, and I know they have degrees for that.
I think the problem is that these characters want what is basically a philosophy/religion degree (to whatever degree it can be called 'philosophy') to be accepted as equal to a hard-sciences degree from a regular university.

That is, they want a degree earned (for example) by learning that the world was created in seven days by divine fiat (as per scripture) to be in all ways equal for professional purposes to a degree earned by learning that the earth formed over billions of years according to natural processes (as per physical evidence and conclusions drawn from it via application of scientific methodology).
I hope they're not IDers, which is a step down in honesty from Creationists. Creationists at least have the nerve to say that the beliefs they teach are based on faith in scriptures and shun scientific explanation, whereas IDers will tell you with a straight face that their conclusions are drawn from objective scientific analysis, which is so much bullshit that we'd have to classify a new species of bull based on digestive capacity and output. A 'science degree' which tried to use scientific concepts to illustrate evidence of design in nature would literally create a mockery of science education.
Well fuck em, religion/philosophy is a mental field not a scientific one. If their degree bullshit goes through I want my Doctorate in Theology as I was raised in a 'christian' school. Never mind, I dont, Ill stick with my history major.
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Re: ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

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General Zod wrote: Texas has a well known history of trying to push hyper-religious/conservative bullshit through on a frighteningly regular basis, whether from the elected officials or the general populace; a frightening amount of the time they actually manage to succeed.
OK, I'll accept this statement as your "opinion" because I don't believe you can back it up with "a frightening amount of" documented facts.
General Zod wrote: You don't seriously think this is out of the norm for that state's behavior do you?
Yes, I do. I live in Texas, in the seventh largest city in the nation (link) where there are more latinos than whites, and here's a (second link) for demographics. And if an opinion based on experience rather than the anecdotal opinion of someone who doesn't live in the state counts for anything, then yes, one representative's behavior, out of 150 state representatives does not impugn an entire state. That being said, if HB2800 becomes law in Texas, I'll eat crow, but I don't see that happening.
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Re: ICR pursuing valid M.Sc degrees for Creationists

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Tahlan wrote:Yes, I do. I live in Texas, in the seventh largest city in the nation (link) where there are more latinos than whites, and here's a (second link) for demographics. And if an opinion based on experience rather than the anecdotal opinion of someone who doesn't live in the state counts for anything, then yes, one representative's behavior, out of 150 state representatives does not impugn an entire state. That being said, if HB2800 becomes law in Texas, I'll eat crow, but I don't see that happening.
So. . . .weird shit doesn't happen regularly because you don't see it? That's hilarious. Texas had anti-sodomy laws on the books until just a few years ago, you have such "prestigious" whackaloons as Chuck Norris calling for seccession, people being arrested for selling adult toys to other adults and you want to say that weird shit isn't the norm in Texas? All of this is just off the top of my head and in the last ten years, but I'm sure I could find more if I bothered. :lol:
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