Awkward Moment with Fundamentalist

[mr friendly guy]

Go with what Aerius said, it depends on what consequences there are. Since you are both college students I doubt he could do anything to you, so let it rip.

Now at work, it might be another matter, but generally where I work people don't go out of their way to be obnoxious over religion. Not to say some people aren't rude for other reasons. While I have been asked about my religous convictions or lack of by other people, they haven't held it exactly against me, so its no biggie.

Generally though, be wary about whether they can do something to you. A fellow college student most probably can't but if it was your boss, he / she may. Which is why when ever someone asks me about IvP I just mutter the whole region is going to hell rather than take sides.

[Posner]

. They've convinced themselves that atheists have never heard about the church or the bible or anything, and that if they just expose an atheist to Christ, they'll be converted.

You, me, and comedian Doug Stanhope agree that's a load of shit. Being conditioned to accept the absurdities of religion from an early age is a requirement for adults to buy into it. Once an atheist hits 18 or so, the snake oil salesman has an uphill battle.
NSFW language
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExAw4hIhRIU

[Furlong]

Generally, I recommend avoiding the topic if at all possible. Trying to talk sense into a fundie is much like running headlong into a brick wall. I believe religion is something that should be practiced in private, something that is backed up by the Bible. Matthew 6:6 reads "But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father who is hidden. And your Father who sees from the hidden place will reward you."

But if I feel a need to argue with a fundie, I usually just shoot down the arguments they put forth with simple logic, and when that fails to work, I shoot them down with arguments from the Bible. It's then I am glad I'm a Unitarian Universalist, and if arguing with a fundie is like running into a brick wall, arguing with a UU is like mud wrestling a pig. You will not succeed, and eventually realize that the pig is enjoying it.

[Darth Wong]

I've dealt with enough fundies to know that arguing about the contents of the Bible is like quicksand; you'll just get sucked in until you can't leave. The Bible is such an inherently self-contradictory document that you can make it say pretty much anything you want, and fundies are so self-deluded that you can't even use its contradictions to prove to them that it has contradictions, because its inerrancy is an article of faith to them. Therefore, they respond to proof of contradiction by simply pointing out that the Bible is NOT contradictory so there must be some other explanation, no matter how absurdly convoluted it is.

It's a lot faster and easier to simply dismiss the Bible for what it is: the ignorant ravings of a bunch of illiterate Bronze Age desert sheep fuckers. Then you can short-circuit a lot of their arguments; a lot of them actually become quite discombobulated when you take the Bible out of their arsenal, especially when you mock them for their inability to debate without it and they can't help but keep quoting it, thus proving your point for you.

[Serafina]

Well, i usually work like this:

1: Name one thing thats better about christianity than about other religions.
Its surprising how rarely they have an answer that is not hilariously easy to dismiss - everything positive in the Bible exists in a LOT of other religions, too.

2: I will show them lots of evil things in the bible and how god could have solved it otherwise (striking the citizens of Sodom&Gomorha with impotence, as an example). Why did he not do so?
Thats a hard part, because i am questioning god! - however, most of them are already unsettled by 1).
Btw, thanks a lot to Darth Wong & his anti-creationism page - lots of nice reference there.

3: To pull out of 2) (this is sometimes necessary) i ask one simple question: WHY do YOU believe in god?
Some will blaber some stuff about "he did X for me" - but if god is necessary for X, how do unbelievers manage it?
Some will say something like "Because i believe in heaven" - so you are only doing your "good deeds" because you want to go to heaven?
Other reply "i want to help people" - but wouldnt it be easier to focus on helping, instead of explaining 3000 years old history?

After 3), most people are actually questioning their believs - and if not, its quite a good stalling tactic.
But then again, i never dealt with a total hard-core fundie - never seen one of those in my life .
Lots of silly, blind christians, but no hardcore fundamentalist.

[Samurai Rafiki]

Well, i usually work like this:

1: Name one thing thats better about christianity than about other religions.
Its surprising how rarely they have an answer that is not hilariously easy to dismiss - everything positive in the Bible exists in a LOT of other religions, too.

The hardcore fundamentalists I know will respond "It's the truth." You ask them why it's the truth (Note, if you're arguing with Sarah Palin, any and all followup questions are sexist) and they respond "because the Bible says so, and it's the living word of God". They have no shame about circular logic. Also, Darth Wong, I think the reason it's so irritating to debate the Bible with them is because of that "living word" line, which they basically use to stretch the text to fit whatever purpose or sermon they're pushing. Nevermind that by now the text has been stretched so often it's looser than the ass of a two dollar hooker.

2: I will show them lots of evil things in the bible and how god could have solved it otherwise (striking the citizens of Sodom&Gomorha with impotence, as an example). Why did he not do so?
Thats a hard part, because i am questioning god! - however, most of them are already unsettled by 1).
Btw, thanks a lot to Darth Wong & his anti-creationism page - lots of nice reference there.

The hardcore fundamentalists I've met are too pretentious to be unsettled. The ones I've been arguing with recently simply assume that I don't quite understand them. "Why is it true? Perhaps I should rephrase, because GOD said so." Showing them evil in the Bible will lead to one of two evasions: a) that was the weakness of man, not the vengeance of their benevolent God or b) yeah, it was bad back then, but with Jesus everything is cool now.

3: To pull out of 2) (this is sometimes necessary) i ask one simple question: WHY do YOU believe in god?
Some will blaber some stuff about "he did X for me" - but if god is necessary for X, how do unbelievers manage it?
Some will say something like "Because i believe in heaven" - so you are only doing your "good deeds" because you want to go to heaven?
Other reply "i want to help people" - but wouldnt it be easier to focus on helping, instead of explaining 3000 years old history?

Again, they respond "because it's true" and have no shame in employing circular logic to prove the truth. Press them on it and they squirrel away with platitudes ("It's God's will", "The lord works in mysterious ways", "X is beautiful/inspiring/majestic and I refuse to believe that's an accident", etc. etc.) The hardcore fundamentalist might claim those other answers for a while but peel away the bullshit and the core is "because it's true".

After 3), most people are actually questioning their believs - and if not, its quite a good stalling tactic.
But then again, i never dealt with a total hard-core fundie - never seen one of those in my life .
Lots of silly, blind christians, but no hardcore fundamentalist.

Ah, then you're missing the fun of it. Harpooning mantatees and clubbing baby seals. Go find your nearest Evangelical church, make an appointment with the preacher and do some real whale hunting. I'll admit I've only really gotten into it with other college students and a few streetcorner preachers, but I'm right now setting up a debate with a youth minister at the church of a friend of mine who thinks to reconvert me. It might have worked four months ago when I didn't know what I was talking about, but at this point I'm just doing it for the sport of it.

It's a lot faster and easier to simply dismiss the Bible for what it is: the ignorant ravings of a bunch of illiterate Bronze Age desert sheep fuckers.

Epic Quote.

[Darth Wong]

See, that's the thing: the really hardcore guys rely on simply stating their beliefs emphatically and repeatedly, and not budging an inch no matter what you say. That's why the simplest response to a really hardcore fundie saying "The Bible is the Word of God" is to simply say "No it isn't" and then state what you think it is.

Think about it: they don't back up that belief; they just say it, over and over. You can't respond to non-logic with logic because non-logic ignores logic by definition. So you might as well just respond with your own emphatic statement declaring what the Bible is.

[Surlethe]

In fact, the most hardcore fundies have developed an entire philosophical system to justify why the Bible must be taken a priori. It's called "presuppositionalism"; if you want to know more, look up Francis Schaeffer and Cornelius Van Til. They were its luminaries between (roughly) 1930 and 1970.

[Serafina]

Ah, then you're missing the fun of it. Harpooning mantatees and clubbing baby seals. Go find your nearest Evangelical church, make an appointment with the preacher and do some real whale hunting. I'll admit I've only really gotten into it with other college students and a few streetcorner preachers, but I'm right now setting up a debate with a youth minister at the church of a friend of mine who thinks to reconvert me. It might have worked four months ago when I didn't know what I was talking about, but at this point I'm just doing it for the sport of it.

I HAVE argued with preachers and priests. Difference is, they are hardly as hardcore as US evangelicals are described - they stand by their beliefs, try to convert others, influence politics etc, but they can NOT block out all reason.
Perhaps thats because they lack political and social backup in Germany. Even in Bavaria, the most christian state, its not really that bad.

[Samurai Rafiki]

In fact, the most hardcore fundies have developed an entire philosophical system to justify why the Bible must be taken a priori. It's called "presuppositionalism"; if you want to know more, look up Francis Schaeffer and Cornelius Van Til. They were its luminaries between (roughly) 1930 and 1970.

That's really interesting. I hadn't known the name for it. It makes me die a little inside knowing that there is one... -_-'

See, that's the thing: the really hardcore guys rely on simply stating their beliefs emphatically and repeatedly, and not budging an inch no matter what you say. That's why the simplest response to a really hardcore fundie saying "The Bible is the Word of God" is to simply say "No it isn't" and then state what you think it is.

Think about it: they don't back up that belief; they just say it, over and over. You can't respond to non-logic with logic because non-logic ignores logic by definition. So you might as well just respond with your own emphatic statement declaring what the Bible is.

I have had some discussions with people who believed that if they firmly believed and had faith that the sky were hot pink, that it would be hot pink. Drag them outside, point at the sky, and they say again that they believe the sky is hot pink. The dumber ones (evangelicals) could look at the sky and say that it actually looked hot pink, and the smarter ones (apologetics) looked at the sky and said that they called that color hot pink.