Something big

[Azron_Stoma]

I think the Allegiance's title of "Heavy Destroyer" says it all really, It's not really supposed to be in the same scale as a Bellator, much less Assertor.

The way I always saw it was, at least on a galactic scale.

Support Craft
100m - 800m

Light Destroyers
length 800m - 1100m

Destroyers
1300-1900m

Heavy Destroyers
2km-3km

Cruisers
4-5km

Battlecruisers
6-9 km

Battleships
10-14km

Dreadnoughts
15km +

correct me if I'm wrong, since Navies never really classed their ships by length, only by tonnage, though I think it might be simpler for the Empire to go by power generation instead of tonnage.

[fractalsponge1]

My guess would be that classification, much like in real navies, is a combination of size, role, and combat power (with reactor output as a rough indication of the latter). A supertanker with a few defensive machine guns would not be rated a battleship by size alone; nor would you rate a torpedo boat a battleship just because it could sink a cruiser if it got lucky...

Size may be best expressed in tonnage or volume. Possibly volume, since it's probably much easier to judge. Length is a poor relative measure, since hull forms can differ so much. However, it is a better yardstick than it would otherwise be, given that there is a standard dagger shape for big combat ships. Nothing to stop you having fat or narrow daggers though; Vengeance has a pathetic volume for its 8km++ length, whereas a proportionately up-scaled ISD (by length) would be huge. Giel's battleship is fairly short (<6km), but volume-wise it's quite a bit bigger than a 7.2km Bellator.

That and there's can be a large spread of sizes in each category, with the extremes blurring into each other. The ebb and flow of galactic standards as the technology is permuted in different ways over time doesn't help with this either. Allegiance might not be very long, but because of its high energy density it may match some cruisers that aren't as focused on pure firepower. The designation "heavy destroyer," to my knowledge, is purely fanon, no matter how apt it might be. In universe, it could actually be a Star Cruiser, just named to get budgetary approval or something like that. And an ISD is a quite a "heavy" destroyer compared to a Victory, the previous standard. "Star Destroyer" probably connotes a large range of ships, with light, line, and heavy designations changing depending on galactic conditions.

At the low end, you could probably group by armament type, since being armed with either largely light, medium, or heavy turbolasers is a good indication of combat power. Once you hit destroyer everything will have heavy turbolasers, so that's not a huge help.

Allegiance is a ~2.25km ship. I've modeled it as having a reactor 6xISD by volume. Armament is 56 ISDI-scale (175-teraton?) turbolasers in 12 quad turrets and 2 quad ball mounts, 3x 720-teraton turbolasers in 3 axial ball mounts, and 12 175-teraton equivalent ion cannon in 4 triple ball mounts. Still a destroyer to a Bellator or Assertor, but pretty much a light Star Cruiser to anything smaller.

[Ketan]

I've modeled it as having a reactor 6xISD by volume. Armament is 56 ISDI-scale

6xisd by volume and 56isdI scale weapons?that doesnt work well! you meen 5-6isdI or?

[fractalsponge1]

Armament is 56 ISDI-scale (175-teraton?) turbolasers

Yes, 56xISDI-scale weapons - an ISDI has more than one ISDI-scale weapon

ISDI:
12 heavy turbolasers in flank turrets, 4 presumably equivalent heavy ion in two flank twins, possibly 8 more equivalent heavy turbolasers in small brim trench notches, unknown caliber heavy axial armament (3x possibly ISDII main gun triples).

[Captain Seafort]

Allegiance is a ~2.25km ship.

Where are you getting that from? Assuming she's the same class as the Eclipse's escorts, I make her to be more like 3200m - 4800m, based on the image of Eclipse, flanked by her escorts, over Pinnacle Base.

[fractalsponge1]

Allegiance is a ~2.25km ship.

Where are you getting that from? Assuming she's the same class as the Eclipse's escorts, I make her to be more like 3200m - 4800m, based on the image of Eclipse, flanked by her escorts, over Pinnacle Base.

I got the length from SWTC. I think my model is fairly consistent, size-wise, with the comic depictions, using the standard KDY tower and ~41m sensor globe as a yardstick. The terraces are closer to the Battle-of-Mon Calamari Allegiance rather than the Eclipse escorts though. Actually, I'm not entirely convinced the Eclipse escorts are necessarily Allegiance-class vs another type of heavy-destroyer/light-cruiser, given the terrace arrangements, but that's another question.

There is very little information on SWTC about where the escorts are relative to the Eclipse. In this one: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/comics/de/eclipse1.jpg, the background escort could be closer to the viewer than the Eclipse.

This http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/comics/de/eclipse2.jpg might be a better indication of size, but is there even an official Eclipse length?

I can say though, that if those sensor globes are standard from eclipse2.jpg, then it's not going to be a 3+km ship.

[Captain Seafort]

Actually, I'm not entirely convinced the Eclipse escorts are necessarily Allegiance-class vs another type of heavy-destroyer/light-cruiser, given the terrace arrangements, but that's another question.

I would say that they're very much the same question, if there's a risk that we're conflating size estimates of two different designs.

There is very little information on SWTC about where the escorts are relative to the Eclipse. In this one: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/comics/de/eclipse1.jpg, the background escort could be closer to the viewer than the Eclipse.

This http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/comics/de/eclipse2.jpg might be a better indication of size, but is there even an official Eclipse length?

I'm using Eclipse1 for my measurements (it's a great shot for that, showing all the ships completely, at fairly long range and parallel to each other), and Eclipse2 as evidence that the escorts are flanking the Eclipse (I believe the two images are either successive or close together, but I don't have a copy of DE so I can't be certain of that).

AFAIK the Eclipse is either 16km or 17.5 km - close enough for government work, given the inherent inaccuracy of the measurements. I'm using 16km.

[fractalsponge1]

I don't have DE either, but I don't think you can make the claim that eclipse2.jpg indicates the escorts in eclipse1.jpg are flanking the Eclipse. In eclipse2.jpg, there are 3 escorts, all above the midplane of the dreadnought, with the planet aft of the formation. In eclipse1.jpg, there are 2 escorts, one below the midplane, and the planet is to port of the formation. If they are immediately sequential, there has been some major maneuvering involved, making the positions subject to change.

In eclipse2.jpg, we can see the sensor globes of the nearest escort. Assuming these are ~40m, then the depth of the ship is on the order of 640m (globe is 9pixels wide, so 4.44m/pixel, ship is ~145 pixels in depth, ~640m).

In eclipse1.jpg, foreground escort is ~47 pixels high, so new scale ~ 13.6m/pixel. The ship is 185-212 pixels wide, so 2.5-2.9km as an estimate from that. Of course, the ship doesn't really looks very much like the escort shown here: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/comics/de/eclipse3.jpg (the tower dimensions relative to hull depth are totally off between there two; in eclipse3.jpg, the escort's tower is as deep as the dagger hull, whereas in eclipse2 the tower is a good deal shorter).

Scaling from this shot: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/comics ... royer2.jpg yields a length between 1.7 and 1.95km, based on a 12-pixel wide foreground sensor globe.

[Ketan]

fractalsponge i need your help

a ISD1 has a max power output of 1e25W

so i have 2 questions

1.what power output has the executor-class?

2.and how many GT/TT (full alphas) holds the shildsystem of both of them out?

ketan

[VT-16]

Due to the mass ratio 100/1 Imperator/Executor, I'd assume it would need at least 100 times the power to move into hyperspace. Then there's the issue with power to guns, shields etc. Perhaps 1e27W for one Ex?

[fractalsponge1]

OK, since I can't keep focus on one thing these days...

[VT-16]

What a cool, little ship! Is it like the Imperial-era equivalent to the Republic light cruiser from TCW?

[Azron_Stoma]

How large was the light cruiser? it looked roughly corvette sized from the screen shots but admittedly that was because of the kitbashed Radiant Vii engines which I'm guessing were upscaled?

This ship looks like it could be around 300m long, judging by the size of the globes if they are of the ISD variety unless my sense of scale is way off, a possible replacement/complement for the Carrack?

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

SWTC has it, and I took it as, approximately 560 metres based on the size of the engine bells, which puts it closer to the size of the Dreadnaught Heavy Cruiser (medium frigate, really)- quite a fat ship, though, wide, which probably doesn't actually mean slow, it means lots of room for reactors and flight bays- are squat ships actually likely to be faster, or at least more powerful?

There are a lot of different ways it could be written up, on the basis of that and the prominent sensor domes I had it as a Fulgor class (never been sure whether that or "Fulgur" is the correct spelling, one's Latin and one modern Italian I think) fast picket and pursuit ship, but it could be a more staightforward slugger.

Yes, I know I haven't posted nearly enough in this thread, but I'm no digital artist and I think "Gee golly-gosh wow" would get old pretty quickly. Really good, definitely.

[Raesene]

Fulgor is anonymous Star Frigate #1 from the Technical Commentaries ?

The armour plating reminds me of broken tiles (I don't know why just here, the Bellator reminded me of a crocodile's tail).
I like the 'ramp' leading up to the command tower's location.

Likely an MTB-analogue, fast and deadly.

The Republican light cruiser would be interesting, I liked its looks on Clone Wars.

[fractalsponge1]

ECR! Post as much as you like - technical ideas get my creativity going. In Hull 721 fulgors had four heavy mediums and then light corvette/fighter-weight guns, but good shields and massive acceleration, if I recall correctly. Fulgor I believe is the Latin.

From your description/background and filling in with hand-waving and guesswork, I'm going to use this as the design background:

Hull is a variant of the Ecliptic (which might have been the standard modern heavy frigate/light destroyer of the Republic - heavy frigate to the Empire). Same hull as used for the Acclamator, which stripped out a lot to pack its division with its gunships and armor. Very successful, basic design updated all the way up to the Fel Empire (Ardent-class, if you count the late, late EU for anything).

Republic took that basic hull form, decided it wanted a lighter pursuit ship to hunt smugglers and pirates, who would only have light guns but be very hard to run down. Redesigned the hull structure and cut the armament and armor down, made it into the Fulgor, which isn't that small (my version is 600m including the engine bells). Underarmed for its size in the Empire (a 450m Strike could outgun it), but very fast, lots of space, good shielding and subdivision but less armor.

Empire comes around, sees these old hulls, realizes they have power, space, and speed to spare, decides they'd be good for utility fleet roles. Takes the ships, updates them with new electronics and a more reasonable weapons fit, and mostly uses them as fleet recon-in-force/scout ships and comscan/C4 support for small ship formations. Massive opportunity for me to model huge and interesting looking antennae and sensors; hilarity ensues.

Right now thinking either a few light heavies/heavy medium guns in single/twin ball turrets, or standard quad mediums as main armament. Twin light mediums as secondary armament, load of light guns. Two squadrons of fighters, very few troops.

Actually, with a hull this fast, you wonder if you could build a heavy anti-fighter ship out of it. Keep a few fast-firing light medium turbolasers for corvette/transport-killing, strip out most of the mediums and replace with shield generators and ECM, and bolt on as many area defense lasers as you have firing arcs for; dozens of multi-barrel mounts. The power draw of even hundreds of high-kiloton lasers should be a pittance compared to what's required for MTL fire, and coupled with that speed and the ECM you could fit on the hull, it'll be a good ship to back and break up massed fighter formations in fleet combat. Shields rated against MTL should be able to shrug off many thousands of fighters worth of light laser hits, and the mass area defense battery should help against warhead attacks. Draw attention and initial warheads from your own fighters, shock action and disruption in the opening moments, giving your fighters that early edge.

[fractalsponge1]

A indication of size:

The ship with a quad medium turbolaser, a row of light guns with the last one the detailed version from my customs corvette, and a quad heavy ion cannon from the Assertor.

[VT-16]

The light cruiser appears similar in size to the C-9979 landing craft which itself is 370 meters long. This seems apparant when one of the thrusters from the exploding cruiser hits the landing craft on one of its wings and it spirals out of control. I'd say size-wise it's similar to this design, which is why I wondered if it was a predecessor to your model.

[Raesene]

Actually, with a hull this fast, you wonder if you could build a heavy anti-fighter ship out of it. Keep a few fast-firing light medium turbolasers for corvette/transport-killing, strip out most of the mediums and replace with shield generators and ECM, and bolt on as many area defense lasers as you have firing arcs for; dozens of multi-barrel mounts. The power draw of even hundreds of high-kiloton lasers should be a pittance compared to what's required for MTL fire, and coupled with that speed and the ECM you could fit on the hull, it'll be a good ship to back and break up massed fighter formations in fleet combat. Shields rated against MTL should be able to shrug off many thousands of fighters worth of light laser hits, and the mass area defense battery should help against warhead attacks. Draw attention and initial warheads from your own fighters, shock action and disruption in the opening moments, giving your fighters that early edge.

An early Lancer-class frigate, then ? A good ship against the massive droid fighter swarms of the CIS.

The mini-C4I ship sounds interesting - I'm imagining the ship with an AWACS-rotor on top...

[Tyralak]

Fractal, I rarely post here, but Jason L. Miles linked me to this particular thread. I have to say you do some truly impressive work. I hope this gig works out for you.

[fractalsponge1]

An early Lancer-class frigate, then ? A good ship against the massive droid fighter swarms of the CIS.

The mini-C4I ship sounds interesting - I'm imagining the ship with an AWACS-rotor on top...

Like an early Lancer, except much bigger, much tougher, and much faster. Very useful for many things (ridiculously high end convoy screen, for one), but cost-effectiveness-wise absolutely useless for anything except a pitched battle, or maybe escorting the Emperor's shuttle . Even in a pitched battle the usage might be very one-shot; if I were leading a fleet against one with a few of these ships, I'd tell my capitals' secondary guns to target them early and in preference to anything else, to give my fighter groups a chance to do anything except scatter for their lives in an ECM haze.

Then again, I'd do that against Lancers too; but some advantages of this concept over the Lancer are that it would be big and tough enough to shrug off MTL fire, and be much much harder to hit in the first place because it's so damn fast and has a more powerful ECM fit. Ultralight turbolasers acting as area defense will allow it to outrange a fighter formation and stay away from enemy capitals, unlike a Lancer that has to wade in with its point-defense guns; not good for fighter escort depletion around a big enemy ship in preparation for a bomber strike, for instance. Also this ship would have a few heavy-light/light-medium turbolasers, so it wouldn't be completely useless against enemy light forces supporting fighters. Of course, the flip side is that it's the size of a medium frigate, and the ECM, shield and engine power involved means it probably isn't that cheap. Come up against a real medium frigate and it's dead meat, albeit one that takes a lot of killing.

Thanks to ECR, I now have this mental image of mass formation fighter combat being like the 3d equivalent of lines of musketeers unloading massed volleys into each other (unless it starts out as a confused furball). Accept some losses and break or disrupt the enemy formation early, and you can get a hugely lopsided win as your intact formation destroys the enemy piecemeal with area fire. Starting the opening bid with a (comparatively) huge and expensive ship to get that disruption might pay out handsomely if 1) the ship has a good chance of surviving long enough to do the job, and 2) the fighter numbers involved are huge. Getting the enemy to target fixate on something and muck up their approach alone might be good enough, if we're talking about tens of thousands of fighters in the air at once.

@Tyralak:
Thanks, enjoy the thread

[fractalsponge1]

I was out of town this weekend, so not much new to show, but here's the start of the antenna/dish work:




And here's a detailed version of a light gun battery (simplified version below, detailed version above). Whenever you see the simple structure on one of my big ships, this is what it really looks like up close (variations in gun type possible, of course):

[Azron_Stoma]

Absolutely beautiful on both the dish and the guns, always wanted to see what they looked like up close. Those are the ones that are 6 megaton per shot right? and have a rather high rof.

Would be Insanely awesome to see your ships that have the simplified version actually replaced with the high detailed version o.O or just a single section of the ship for a close up shot.

[fusion]

Would be Insanely awesome to see your ships that have the simplified version actually replaced with the high detailed version o.O or just a single section of the ship for a close up shot.

I whole heartily second that.

Again, your art is pure awesome.

[fractalsponge1]

You can all guess what this is:

http://fractalsponge.net/gallery/assert ... index.html