STGOD 2k8 Planning thread

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2008-01-28 10:44pm

You know, this may end up with Nashtar looking more like the post-Revolutionary United States than I'd intended, if you think of the Konige as the Barbary Pirates, seeing how everyone else keeps trying to just pay him off to not kill them.

Hawkwings · Post by **Hawkwings** » 2008-01-28 11:58pm

Sorry to the people waiting on me for a response. I'll put up something quick soon, so you guys can keep posting.

Academia Nut · Post by **Academia Nut** » 2008-01-29 01:35am

And now things get interesting. I figure if no one wants to face me I should milk this for all its worth until someone does summon up the balls to deal with my shit. I suppose showing the psychotic willingness, even glee, to attack in the face of hardened opposition while still being polite about it has that affect on people.

Hawkwings · Post by **Hawkwings** » 2008-01-29 01:43am

Hey, I'd gladly fight you. It's just that I'm in the middle of getting massacred right now. Oh, and I'm kinda far from you...

Maybe if my nation dies fast enough, you can fight the 5th fleet, another nation of psychotic warmongers. How does that sound?

Academia Nut · Post by **Academia Nut** » 2008-01-29 02:01am

It seems probable, although if you are willing to pay for it, we're willing to make the hike over to you guys. All payments must be made in advance and are non-refundable in the event that you get conquered before we arrive.

Hawkwings · Post by **Hawkwings** » 2008-01-29 02:04am

Psh, pay you to come to my awesome party? You should be paying me!

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2008-01-29 06:04pm

It's actually a three-way slugfest, so it's more likely that we'll all get ground into mush. Adding another to the party might take him some time to get here, but it'll give us time to restock before we go at round two.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2008-01-29 06:15pm

Heh, I like the idea of people actually paying real money to you void barbs.

Academia Nut · Post by **Academia Nut** » 2008-01-29 06:25pm

Hey, you had the balls to send an asshole to the negotiating table when we showed up and he was forceful enough to get us to agree that headbutting you was outside of our interests. We can respect that.

Now, if Dark Hellion had showed up with a fleet and said, "Alright you fucking barbarian shitheads, we know most of your fleet is away right now, so here's what's going to happen. We're all going to play nice like from now on, got that?" then we would respect them more. If they just attacked, well, that's war, that's something we can deal with.

Incidentally, mercenary work is cheaper than a nonaggression pact. Remember folks, for a mere 100 IP a month, you get access to a ~1600 point rape fleet to use against your enemies. Those are huge savings on your part.

Darkevilme · Post by **Darkevilme** » 2008-01-29 07:14pm

Is academia nut being paid his cab fare to the north western sector now?

*contemplates whether the chamaran's could arrange something similar in order to get to the fabled ruins of sol rumble gig*

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2008-01-29 09:52pm

So, my general assumption is that I was broadcasting from somewhere in the 9 to 11, -6 to -7 area, thus taking a few days for the ships to reach the Konige worlds. I do not want to create a time crunch, so Academia whenever you are ready for negotiations please send me a PM.

And as a question for everyone, how do you feel about developing the universe outside our own factions? There are probably plenty of minor colonies and other bullshit to talk about, and I kinda want some stuff to do filler posts on anyways. Should we try discussing minor powers here, or do we have free reign to make up non-significant civs?

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2008-01-29 10:03pm

Anyone know where Nephy wwnt? We really can't continue the fun in Makay till she gets back.

Also, as for the events of Makay, would anyone Know about them yet? IE, would anyone back at the Kushawni systems be informed by now? As far as I know no one is jamming singles.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2008-01-29 10:42pm

She's been a little sick recently, and hasn't been up to doing much at all. You should send her a PM.

Academia Nut · Post by **Academia Nut** » 2008-01-29 11:04pm

Well, part of the thing was that you said that you came up the borders of my space, which is to say that your ship should be a few hours away from my planets, which is enough to make anyone cranky. Which was why I did it to Thirdfain, but then again I was expecting it to lead to war in the first place. The reason I post this here and not as a PM is that it is a good reminder for everyone that "borders" = less than a day's travel from any world in your empire.

But yeah, I'm ready for negotiations at any time. Prices can always be haggled on, the ones listed are merely "guidelines".

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2008-01-30 02:39am

oh, I was thinking that with how spaced most of the territories where, that large "international waters" areas existed around us, at least 1 hex if not more away. Sorry about that confusion, my assumptions of Space Rome and there being many old timey naval traditions led to the miscommunication.

Academia Nut · Post by **Academia Nut** » 2008-01-30 12:50pm

If you had said international space near the location of Konige space, then yeah, that would be different, but you said "borders" which sort of implies the equivalent of moving right up to the edge of someone's territorial waters 12 nautical miles, especially since when I defined "Borders" when I blasted Thirdfain's sensors with metal, I said I was going right up to the edge of the detection range.

I however have no problem with you rewording your post so that you aren't so close if that wasn't your intent.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2008-01-30 02:10pm

Ok, I will do so, sorry for the confusion. It was meant to be bold, but not trigger automated defenses and get blown out of the sky bold. I mean, I did pull up in my space porshe, insult you, and then insist that you come out and pick me up.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2008-02-01 03:19pm

For a very practical question with near-immediate implications, how does D work in three way uncoordinated slugfests? I know how I would like it to work, being a D whore, having it apply its reduction equally to all other groups that aren't officially allied and coordinating would be quite lovely, representing the lack of cohesive effort needed to decisively punch through static defensive measures. However the interpretation that D represents the total amount of Defense available to resist fire in any given interval is at least equally valid(and probably appears more so to those not about to be potentially sandwiched and praying for a ruling in their favor to keep their fleet intact till at least strategic turn two).

Basically, I'd just like a ruling so I know how screwed I possibly are wioll haven been.

Darkevilme · Post by **Darkevilme** » 2008-02-01 04:19pm

regarding posting: I think i'm waiting for nephtys who's waiting on crossroads.

Regarding active defence: Just to check i'm clear as to what D does.
- If you have less sensors than the enemy D you cant even tell how many ships they have.
- It nullifies active offence weaponry unless you poured points into sensors, which is almost funny as there was a time active offence was there to counter D.
- It can be used as hitpoints
- it blocks more than its shipweight in firepower directed at the fleet.
- it does the dishes and looks good draped on the sofa.

Active offence:
- Doesnt provide more damage than regular weaponry
- doesnt provide hitpoints
- does at least pierce active defence, presumeably only in the sense of not being able to pick your targets but at least not being blocked in the case of active defence exceeding sensors. Does active offence even lower D?
- can allow you to pick your targets in the unlikely event that your sensors exceed their jamming.

I'm beginning to feel that me mostly finalizing my OOB before D became the shit and O became very nearly shit is going to bite me in the ass.

Hawkwings · Post by **Hawkwings** » 2008-02-01 04:37pm

Alright, rules-lawyering time.

The rules that states "You can't use O unless your C3 is better than their D" is too much of a nerf against O. I propose we remove this rules immediately.

Second point: D covers too much stuff. I know there was a huge debacle over this on page like... 3? Anyways, right nw D counters normal attacks and C3 and acts as hitpoints. Too overpowered. I propose a new stat, E for Electronic Warfare, that counters C3, and D only counters normal attacks and provides extra hitpoints.

For the immediate slugfest, consider 2 scenarios: D counters fleets, or D counters damage.

For D counters fleets, I could attack with a million-point fleet and completely wipe the floor with your fleet. Now, consider if they were 100,000 seperate fleets of ten-point ships. If D countered fleets, then your fleet could bring to bear, say 500 points of D against each fleet of 10 points, which means that you would hold out forever. Obviously not a smart way to attack (seperately) but it shows the problem with that.

If D counters points, then the entirely seperate fleet still wipes the floor with the D fleet, as it should be. I think that the efficiency would be lower than if it were one fleet, but not to the point that it can't pierce defenses.

Of course, I have immediate stake in this issue and am of course biased, but take from this what you will.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2008-02-01 04:48pm

Hawkwings wrote:Alright, rules-lawyering time.

The rules that states "You can't use O unless your C3 is better than their D" is too much of a nerf against O. I propose we remove this rules immediately.

Agreed. As the player with probably the most D it makes my life way too easy.

Second point: D covers too much stuff. I know there was a huge debacle over this on page like... 3? Anyways, right nw D counters normal attacks and C3 and acts as hitpoints. Too overpowered. I propose a new stat, E for Electronic Warfare, that counters C3, and D only counters normal attacks and provides extra hitpoints.

So we'll retcon my approach as being under massive one-shot jamming platforms then? Or do you want to have your incoming reinforcements be more substantial to compensate for the fact that you knew pretty much exactly what was coming?

For the immediate slugfest, consider 2 scenarios: D counters fleets, or D counters damage.

For D counters fleets, I could attack with a million-point fleet and completely wipe the floor with your fleet. Now, consider if they were 100,000 seperate fleets of ten-point ships. If D countered fleets, then your fleet could bring to bear, say 500 points of D against each fleet of 10 points, which means that you would hold out forever. Obviously not a smart way to attack (seperately) but it shows the problem with that.

If D counters points, then the entirely seperate fleet still wipes the floor with the D fleet, as it should be. I think that the efficiency would be lower than if it were one fleet, but not to the point that it can't pierce defenses.

Of course, I have immediate stake in this issue and am of course biased, but take from this what you will.

Full stength against one designated by defender, half against second, half that against a theoretical third and so on without planned coordination work as a general guideline to represent general saturation, with no subdividing fleets by a single player to snaek around the issue? This doesn't actually solve the issue since technically a dozen fleets of a hundred points would do far better than a single 1200 point fleet against D in the higher ranges, but I'm fresh out of brilliance this minute apart from making it arbitrarily halfor some other number after the first.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2008-02-01 05:11pm

Not to be a bitch, but if you redo D now, I will have to completely change a great deal of my ships point structure and my attribute points spending, as I worked with the D system counting as both ECM and point D/shields/armour a lot. I can do it if we think it is totally unbalanced, but most of the time D is replacing base points which means high D ships don't dish out well at all. In a huge fleet having good ECM and point defenses should be a huge advantage, because frankly the enemy can't see you or hit you. One on one slugging matches favor bland ships though. It makes you have to use strategy in how you choose to engage (gasp!). Although if there were minor tweaks done, I think it would improve, as D does cover a ton of bases in fleets, its just pretty damn sucky alone.

Hawkwings · Post by **Hawkwings** » 2008-02-01 05:47pm

Hey, consequences already has a D-heavy fleet and racial points built around that. At least you can still fix yours.

D is most definitely not sucky. With equal point value ships present, a D fleet will win against a vanilla fleet every time. A 50pt ship will lose to a 40+10D ship. Frankly, adding ECM to D is overkill because D is already so good.

The 1/2 D rule has potential, but how about this? Against one fleet, you have 100% D value. For 2 fleets, you have 100% + 50%, for 3 fleets is 100% + 50% + 25%, etc. That seems a bit high, maybe reduce it to 30% or something, but you get the idea. Then, you can distribute your new D value to be effective against whatever fleet you want, to a max of 100%. So you could have 75% D vs each of the two fleets attacking you, and with three fleets, you could have 100% against one, 75% against another, and none against the third.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2008-02-01 05:55pm

I though that a 50 was supposed to beat a 40+10D? Didn't you guys tweak the values so that this was the case, making D a fleet dependent thing, and not a independent ship enhancer?

I do like your 1/2D rule though Hawkwings, and it seems both fair and fluffy on a quick overview.

Hawkwings · Post by **Hawkwings** » 2008-02-01 06:58pm

We tweaked the values, yes, but tweaked them so that D was a good deal. If you kill your enemy faster while taking less damage without D, why would anyone ever buy it?

Consequences: Here's my fleet's plan. My fleet plans to retreat, hoping to draw off the faster ships in your fleet, then tear them to pieces and call it good. If your ships stay together, my retreat means that I break the engagement (my ships can avoid engagement one turn after calling a retreat) and therefore repair once.