SDN Wars: A Galaxy Divided: OOC

[Agent Sorchus]

At least Thirdfain has given us an agent provocateur like Shep iswas in the SDN world thread.

[Thirdfain]

At least Thirdfain has given us an agent provocateur like Shep iswas in the SDN world thread.

I intend on winding up a little less... irradiated?

[DarthShady]

Guys, I feel that it is my obligation to inform you that I have quit my position as mod for this game and that the remaining mods are Thanas and RogueIce. I simply no longer have the time to effectively deal with my duties as moderator for the game. I don't even have the time to play the game itself right now.

I may return to the game, sometime in the future, but right now - I haven't the time or the energy.

So, in my absence I am leaving control of my Empire to Siege. He will run it for me, for the time being, so that my Empire remains active and in the game - while I am not. This will make my eventual return to the game, much easier. Have fun playing guys, it's been a pleasure.

If anyone has questions, feel free to PM me.

Bye, for now.

[Thanas]

Siege has also been appointed as mod.

[Siege]

Since I didn't see any, I took the liberty of composing a quick and dirty first year acquisitions sheet for the Shadow Empire. I don't really have the time to dig through the thread for any possible trade pacts the Empire may have signed, so I'm assuming it's signed such pacts only with its two (secret) allies (on the assumption that few if anyone would want anything to do with an openly Sith power). If this is incorrect, please let me know.

[EDIT: Thanas reminded me that the Remnant has signed a trade pact with the Shadow Empire as well, as did the Etti Alliance.]

Shadow Empire balance sheet for the first game year, for moderator consideration:

ST. POINTS: 2,000
TRADE PACTS: 4 x 25
TOTAL: 2,100

UPKEEP:
53 to stations
277 to stations
TOTAL: -330

TO SPEND: 1,720

FACILITY CONSTRUCTION (1,200 pts)
3x 1600m Shipyard (780 pts) - 1 @ Koros Major, 1 @ Rendili, 1 @ Metellos
2x 800m Shipyard (220 pts) - 1 @ Tython, 1 @ Ord Trasi
4x full planetary shield (80pts) - 1 @ Rendili, 1 @ Metellos, 1 @ Ord Trasi, 1 @ Kuar
120x planetary defense turbolasers (60) - 40 @ Koros Major, 40 @ Rendili, 40 @ Metellos
120x planetary defense ion cannons (60) - 40 @ Koros Major, 40 @ Ord Trasi, 40 @ Kuar

NEW ACQUISITIONS (SHIPS) (88 pts)
4x Victory II-class star destroyer (32 pts)
2x Class II-class frigate (12 pts)
6x Class 1000-class cruiser (24 pts)
10x Assassin-class corvette (20 pts)

NEW ACQUISITIONS (FIGHTERS) (240 pts)
50x TIE Starfighter wing (100 pts)
25x TIE Interceptor wing (50 pts)
25x TIE Bomber wing (50 pts)
10x TIE Scimitar bomber wing (40 pts)

NEW ACQUISITIONS (FORCE) (60 pts)
4x Jedi Knight (60 pts)

BANK: +182 pts

[Thanas]

That's more or less what I intend on doing; an uncompromising, highly populist anti-Imperial stance is part of that scheming.

Your stance is not uncompromising - it is fanatical and suicidal. Uncompromising is the state of the sith empire - antagonistic, scheming, not interested in alliances, but quite reasoanble when it comes to strategical situations.

but we did not just outright declare war at each other. Now, my ambassador arrives, is perfectly civil and then gets pelted not only with a declaration of war,

More accurately, an assertion that there was never a declaration of *peace*.

And when asked for one, she is informed that a state of war exists. Nice.

but with demands for surrender and a demand for extradition of nation leaders.

Well, yeah. My goals are no more or less fanatical than those displayed by the Rebel Alliance through 3 movies and a decade of EU material.

Yes, but the galactic alliance had a stronghold in Mon Calamari that was almost impossible to crack for the Imperials. You have no such thing.

There is no tradition finer among revolutionaries and idealists than the impossible struggle!

Those platitutes may play well with the populace, but your leaders have to be smarter than this.

This is certainly true, the Imperial Remnant are an entirely reasonable, non-brutal, normal society which has been quite peaceful and progressive.

I'd like to justify your case of war then.

Both my in-character leaders and I myself realize this. Perhaps my almost absurdly provocative stance so far is... purposeful?

What purpose is served by this other than making my leaders think you are batshit insane, worse than the sith, willing to kill former comrades in arms and someone who needs to be put down?

That has been your (highly successful!) plan so far. My position, I believe, requires a different approach. Time will tell, my friend, if it is the correct one!

So far, your approach seems to consist of:
- Piss off potential allies be demanding they hand over their ships and territory
- act like a lunatic in front of my ambassador, making her think you are a worse threat to galactic peace than the sith
- make incredibly hypocritical statements like "you reign over coruscant is tyrannical" when my resources go towards feeding the populace. Heck, I pay half of your entire upkeep bill just to feed coruscant.

Like I said, suicidal.

Even the Imperials eventually recognized the need for peace in the OTL and their situation was a lot more advantageous than yours. In short, you are more fanatic than the staunchest new order supporters.

[Thirdfain]

Thanas, I appreciate your successes so far, and I have felt out the paradigm forming- what with the Imperial Remnant acting as a center-right force around which Imperial and New Republic factions can coalesce, due both to your personal drive and charisma and your control of Coruscant. And on the other side, the Sith alliance and their threat to the established order- essentially, a conflict between the fabric of the Empire and it's Sithian theocrats.

You have envisioned your Remnant as a fairly liberal group driven by the pragmatic needs of fixing the damage to the Galaxy. Great! However, you've chosen the trappings of the Empire to pursue that goal. You can't have imagined that that wouldn't lead to some problems? You mentioned the quadrillions who died, so you must realize that they died because a large percentage of the Galaxy's population was fighting tooth and nail to end the Empire for ever.

You say I'm having my characters act like lunatics, but I think that their actions are entirely in keeping with the attitude of the Rebel Alliance, which is the position into which they've been thrown by recent events.

But by all means, call me a madmen. Call up the legions, mobilize the alliance, march on Sullust. We'll see how your war of aggression plays out.

[Thanas]

Thanas, I appreciate your successes so far, and I have felt out the paradigm forming- what with the Imperial Remnant acting as a center-right force around which Imperial and New Republic factions can coalesce, due both to your personal drive and charisma and your control of Coruscant. And on the other side, the Sith alliance and their threat to the established order- essentially, a conflict between the fabric of the Empire and it's Sithian theocrats.

You have envisioned your Remnant as a fairly liberal group driven by the pragmatic needs of fixing the damage to the Galaxy. Great!

No, I have established them as an amalgation of competing visions. There are heartless militarists, pragmatists and liberals - and that only scratches the top. There are by my count over 14 different points of view among them. We'll see which one wins in the end, but at the moment you are not doing the pragmatists and liberals any favor.

However, you've chosen the trappings of the Empire to pursue that goal. You can't have imagined that that wouldn't lead to some problems? You mentioned the quadrillions who died, so you must realize that they died because a large percentage of the Galaxy's population was fighting tooth and nail to end the Empire for ever.

They died because Palpatine was a madman. In case you have not noticed, nobody on my side wishes Palpatine back.

You say I'm having my characters act like lunatics, but I think that their actions are entirely in keeping with the attitude of the Rebel Alliance, which is the position into which they've been thrown by recent events.

The Rebel alliance did not have countless civilians looking to them for protection. You do.

But by all means, call me a madmen. Call up the legions, mobilize the alliance, march on Sullust. We'll see how your war of aggression plays out.

War of aggression? I am bending over backwards and swallowing a lot of insults from your arrogant diplomat who cannot be civil (something even the sith manage). You are the one who refuses a peace treaty. You are the one who refuses to deal. You are the one who, in a postion of great inferiority, slaps away the outstretched hands of peace.

How is my responding to that a war of aggression?

[Thirdfain]

How is my responding to that a war of aggression?

Because words are one thing, rhetoric and political mumbo-jumbo. The actual mobilization and dispatch of battlefleets is another thing altogether. I mean, why bother asking nicely for a treaty of legitimization when you'll just come in with full weight of the Empire if someone says "no?"

[Thanas]

How is my responding to that a war of aggression?

Because words are one thing, rhetoric and political mumbo-jumbo. The actual mobilization and dispatch of battlefleets is another thing altogether. I mean, why bother asking nicely for a treaty of legitimization when you'll just come in with full weight of the Empire if someone says "no?"

You did not just not say "we do not recognize your legitimacy". That would be fine - I am sure the sith also have their own ideas. No, you informed me that a state of war exists between us. In short, you communicated your intent to attack us and you communicated your intent that you would never ever agree to a peace treaty unless you were destroyed.

[Thanas]

Ghetto edit:

Everyone can say no. In fact, plenty of people have refused proposals by me.

[Thirdfain]

You did not just not say "we do not recognize your legitimacy". That would be fine - I am sure the sith also have their own ideas. No, you informed me that a state of war exists between us. In short, you communicated your intent to attack us and you communicated your intent that you would never ever agree to a peace treaty unless you were destroyed.

On the contrary, I would agree to a peace treaty- relinquish your claims to the mantle of Coruscant and the Empire, and we'd be pleased to sign!

Everyone can say no. In fact, plenty of people have refused proposals by me.

Ah, it's only those who actually oppose your dominion who must fear the Imperial Fleet. Of course.

[Thanas]

You did not just not say "we do not recognize your legitimacy". That would be fine - I am sure the sith also have their own ideas. No, you informed me that a state of war exists between us. In short, you communicated your intent to attack us and you communicated your intent that you would never ever agree to a peace treaty unless you were destroyed.

On the contrary, I would agree to a peace treaty- relinquish your claims to the mantle of Coruscant and the Empire, and we'd be pleased to sign!

Yes, asking me to commit suicide, what a great choice. Coruscant is the reason my faction exists. The entire political philosophy of the Remnant and the entire Core Alliance is geared towards Coruscant. Without it, my faction would fracture - Bakura would most likely join the Concordat, Praji would try to make his own fiefdom, the rest would fall into isolation.

Lovely choice, really.

Everyone can say no. In fact, plenty of people have refused proposals by me.

Ah, it's only those who actually oppose your dominion who must fear the Imperial Fleet. Of course.

Get off it. I have no doubt the Sith will strike at every opportunity and that is fine. You don't see me calling for a crusade against them, do you? The reason is that they did not declare a war against my faction.

EDIT: Coincidentally, you are the only one who is unable to even ask your people to stop shooting at the sight of an Imperial. Wonder why I do not blast every seperatists ship in sight or why I do not fire at every NR or sith ship...Oh yeah, the reason is that I do not want to go to war.

You apparently do.

[Thirdfain]

*shrug* Our positions are in competition, and there can never be peace so long as the Empire sits on the throneworld. I was hoping that a sort of cold war would develop, but you seem committed to bringing matters to a head immediately. I only hope you are prepared for the consequences of a protracted and bloody campaign on the Rim during these trying times.

-edit- Oh, and despite your protestations otherwise, I have yet to fire a shot. Your vessels were completely unmolested on arrival.

[Thanas]

*shrug* Our positions are in competition, and there can never be peace so long as the Empire sits on the throneworld. I was hoping that a sort of cold war would develop, but you seem committed to bringing matters to a head immediately. I only hope you are prepared for the consequences of a protracted and bloody campaign on the Rim during these trying times.

I do not want to go to war. But the USA and the USSR never had a state of war between them. We do.

Why can't you just sign a dammed peace treaty?

[Thanas]

Edit: in short, you are arguing for a hot war in every single one of your IC post. I don't know about your view of history, but US and USSR ships did not immediately fire on each other once they saw each other.

That is the state of affairs we are currently in. We do not currently have a cold war, we have a hot war.

[Thirdfain]

I do not want to go to war. But the USA and the USSR never had a state of war between them. We do.

Why can't you just sign a dammed peace treaty?

Because the raison d'etre of my faction is as the hardline remnant of the New Republic, and to sign a peace treaty would invalidate my legitimacy not only in the eyes of the direct citizens of the League, but also in the eyes of anti-Imperialists the galaxy over- factions who almost certainly exist even within your own state!

I have not fired a shot, and my nation description includes no chronicles of open hostilities between our factions, so your assertion as to the tendency of our vessels to open fire immediately does not seem to be borne out.

We've been at "war" for the last 2 years without to much discontent; why can't you just leave well enough alone? If you are so committed to peace, well, the ball is in your court. I am not threatening to invade you now, and lack the capacity to do so. I can assure you (ooc) that we will be able to fight a long and refreshing duel of assassinations, political double-dealing, and treachery until such times as matters come to a head.

Or you can charge in guns blazing now, and I can bleed you dry first as a fairly large military defending a fortified position, and then as a band of rebel guerillas. While such a campaign would diminish my physical resources, I would find it no less thrilling.

[Thanas]

I do not want to go to war. But the USA and the USSR never had a state of war between them. We do.

Why can't you just sign a dammed peace treaty?

Because the raison d'etre of my faction is as the hardline remnant of the New Republic, and to sign a peace treaty would invalidate my legitimacy not only in the eyes of the direct citizens of the League, but also in the eyes of anti-Imperialists the galaxy over- factions who almost certainly exist even within your own state!

I have not fired a shot, and my nation description includes no chronicles of open hostilities between our factions, so your assertion as to the tendency of our vessels to open fire immediately does not seem to be borne out.

You do know what "war" is, do you? What do you think will happen if we two of our fleets meet?

We've been at "war" for the last 2 years without to much discontent; why can't you just leave well enough alone? If you are so committed to peace, well, the ball is in your court. I am not threatening to invade you now, and lack the capacity to do so. I can assure you (ooc) that we will be able to fight a long and refreshing duel of assassinations, political double-dealing, and treachery until such times as matters come to a head.

Then why won't you at least sign a dammed ceasefire? In case you do not know, war means immediate progression of hostilities. Or why don't you propose a gentleman's agreement? I do not freaking know about the markup of your faction. I do not know why you won't or can't sign a peace treaty.

My ambassador has swallowed countless insults. Why the heck can't you give a single inch and act like a state that wishes to survive for more than 1 year?

Or you can charge in guns blazing now, and I can bleed you dry first as a fairly large military defending a fortified position,

What a joke considering our respective militaries.

and then as a band of rebel guerillas. While such a campaign would diminish my physical resources, I would find it no less thrilling.

Yeah, such a campaign would be really succesful considering our respective militaries and the markup of your forces.

As you have no interdictor craft, you cannot intercept our forces in transit. That forces you to attack our systems. Which you cannot take due ot having no assault carriers and not being strong enough to blast our planetary shields.

Your heavy cruisers and carriers have supplies for 1 year? Your medium cruisers have supplies for 5 months. Your dreadnoughts have supplies for 1.5 years. Your frigates for 2 years. Your gunships and corvettes for two months. You have no supply bases. You can also not invade any of our planets as our space superiority fleets will toast you and you have no assault carriers.

So after two months, your corvettes are gone. After 5 months, your screening units that can stand in the line of battle. After one year, your cruisers would have starved to death. After 2 years, your last combat ships are gone. All the while you are being chased by superior fleets. From which you cannot escape because unlike you, we do have interdictor craft.

[Thirdfain]

I see a spot of dissonance between your certainty in victory and your absolute commitment to signing a peace treaty despite the insults and rhetoric. Maybe you are right, but there's a lot a large battle-fleet can do in 5 months. There's no need to be pedantic. Don't assume I am ignorant as to the balance of power.

If you have some sort of "gentleman's agreement" to propose, feel free to do so. The only point on which I will not budge is that of enmity between the Imperial remnant, and indeed ALL Imperial factions, and the Pragmatic League and the Republic as a whole (such as it exists.)

[Siege]

Can't you two just declare that the two years of not trying to kill each other constitute a de-facto ceasefire and call it a day? You don't have to like each other to just agree not to immediately try and trash each other's place...

[Thirdfain]

That for me would be the optimum result, yes.

[Thanas]

I see a spot of dissonance between your certainty in victory and your absolute commitment to signing a peace treaty despite the insults and rhetoric.

There is no dissonance. Merely I do not want to waste my storylines which have been planned out a large deal ahead with going to war with you. My certainty in victory is not in question, I just do not like going to war. And presumably, neither does my populace.

That for me would be the optimum result, yes.

Alright, I shall offer it. Ossilege must have the nerves of a turtle....

[Master_Baerne]

Thirdfain, you're trying to start an interesting cold-war plotline, and I can respect that. Unfortunately, cold wars only work between parties on roughly-equal strenght; the CORE Alliance has five time yours and will not hesitate to use it. A little tact, therefore, would seem in order - That is to say, stop demanding that the Remnant give up Coruscant to you, or they just might take offense.

On an entirely unrealted note, I'm going to post a revised budget for this year, taking into account trade pacts.

[Kartr_Kana]

Revised spending for this year to show the addition of new ship construction and the first of hopefully many trade pacts.

Base budget:2000pts
Plus trade pacts(1):2000+25
Total:2025pts

Ship Maintenance: 316 pts
Facility Maintenance: 15pts
Total Maintenance: 331pts

Points left: 1694

10xResupply stations = 60pts(2 per planet)
4x1300m Repair yards = 160pts (1 for every planet except for Mechis III)
1xOrbiting Repair Yard Type II 2500m = 80pts (Mechis III)
3xSpace Dock class I 5000m = 480pts (1 each for Arkania, Obroa-Skai and Onderon)
1xSpace Dock class II = 240pts (Alsakan)
Total Space Station construction: 1020pts

Medium Cruiser research 8x6pts = 48pts

1x2200m Shipyard = 400pts (Alsakan)

10xGladiator-class Cruisers, 4@Alsakan(2x1000m shipyards), 3@Arkania and Onderon (2x1000m shipyards and 2x800m shipyards between them) = 50pts

3.5xWings of TIE Interceptors @ Mechis III (4x200m shipyards) = 7pts

Total construction expenditure: 1525pts
Total saved for next year: 169pts

[Kartr_Kana]

Just a heads up all my ships have a designator and a name much like modern US warships. My system is pretty easy first two letters are ship role the third letter is ship class and the numbering starts from first fleet. For example the flagship of 1st Fleet is an Allegiance-class stardestroyer so it would be CSA-01. Command Ship, Allegiance 1st ship of the class. Whereas the Venator in 3rd Fleet would be FCV-03, Fleet Carrier Venator 3rd ship of the class. The ISDII at Alsakan would be HCI-01 and 02 for Heavy Cruiser Imperial 1st and 2nd ships of the class while the one at Mechis III would be HCI-09 since it's the 9th ship of the class.