SD.net's World OOC/Discussion thread MK II

[K. A. Pital]

To expand on this a little more, the absence of those hypersound tonnels is why the USSR and US were leading in the space program, whilst China's material science and rocket science was decades behind. China only now constructs a Mach 6 tonnel. They were forced to copy airframes for both their subsonic and supersonic craft, and I strongly suspect that one of the factors was the absence of serious aerospace facilities. The USSR created some of the first Lavale type M=10 pipes in 1960-1967, and ran tests. China really was very far behind.

[DarthShady]

The beginning of a new age, the Atomic age.

Congratulations Shep.

[PeZook]

The beginning of a new age, the Atomic age.

Congratulations Shep.

You know, I would have preferred to enter the Atomic Age without this whole "giant explosions" bit...

[Dave]

The beginning of a new age, the Atomic age.

Congratulations Shep.

You know, I would have preferred to enter the Atomic Age without this whole "giant explosions" bit...

And I would have preferred it without riots. It could be difficult to get that shipyard tour we were planning.

[PeZook]

And I would have preferred it without riots. It could be difficult to get that shipyard tour we were planning.

Word...

Are they throwing eggs? I hate raw eggs...

Heh, the best thing is that once the NPS is complete, people will start killing each other for a chance to take a cruise on one, for a change

[Beowulf]

Beowulf, please do tell me how a M10 wind pipe is the "first in the world" hypersound pipe, when even in the late XX century TSAGI had 20 Mach windpipes (T-116 and T-117). That sounds way off.

Lemme modify that... First large diameter windtunnel, as in 10 foot diameter pipe, as opposed to 10 in diameter.

[K. A. Pital]

First large diameter windtunnel, as in 10 foot diameter pipe

Well, I thought so. Because scramjet configurations of shape have been adequately tested in places like AT-303:
http://www.nsu.ru/psj/lector/fomin/2.html

So either it's a Mach 30 tonnel, or it's a Mach 10 tonnel but, say, 2-3 times wider.

Although I can't really understand what the benefits are. I mean, the NASA scramjet was tested in a wind tunnel IIRC before it had to actually get up and fly anyway.

A tonnel will only be useful for testing scramjet models, and even if it's like 1:100 - impossible actually, what, a 6 metere working chamber? For a hypersonic windtonnel? That is fucking out there. And even then, would that be so large, it can only test... 10 times larger scramjet models.

Any dreams of testing 1:1 or even 1:20 human-flyable scramjet models for hypersonic windpipes are fiction. Reality starts from 1:70 and downwards.

[Dave]

Word...

Are they throwing eggs? I hate raw eggs...

Heh, the best thing is that once the NPS is complete, people will start killing each other for a chance to take a cruise on one, for a change

No, they aren't throwing eggs.

You know, we can make it work with enough riot police... just push the crowd back a block.

[Lonestar]

Stas....

Lonestar never "spoke" of dealing with Omsk. He thought it. I'll accept that other countries can get the gist of a non-news post through normal intel gathering, but come on man(In fact, I plan on Coyote's family problems to be completely unknown to Lonestar until the summit).

Unless you guys got telepaths?


*runs for tinfoil hat*

[K. A. Pital]

Now, would you look at that? Our nuclear test: reaction -

Throught the People's Republic, calls were made to sever ties with Shepnukistan, a OMSK-Pact country that Canissia has purchased anti-ship missiles from in the recent past. Suspicion was also thrown on the intentions-- and likely collusion-- of the Kingdom of Blackadder and the Red Technocracy in the construction of the bomb. Some protesters chained themselves to the construction site entrance to the hydropower project at Rift Strait, blocking workers from the site.

Wes looked at the headline on his morning paper. He couldn't believe it. "Good God Shep, you let out the nuclear genie, AGAIN! Why can't people learn from the mistakes of history?".

Ever since the warhead test, anti-nuclear demonstrations have been held in front of OMSK embassies and related organizations. Legislatives of the Blue Party have been proposing that Mangka should halt any medical supply to OMSK nations.

Loud protests and riots centered around the Nucelar Prototype Testbed caused work to be halted for a day, before riot police were called in to allow the workers safe passage to the shipyard. Rioters protested the Shepnukistani thermonuclear weapons test and the nuclear powerplant of the prototype passenger vessel currently under construction. Protestors yelled anti-nuclear slogans, carried signs and harassed workers entering and leaving the shipyard.

"I'll be leaving for the MESS summit meeting soon in the Lonestar Republic," the King said, "And we'll discuss this, as well as other strategic arms limitations."

The King did say that a total ban on nuclear weapons was "ideal, but unrealistic."
"The genie is out of the bottle, now," he said.

NOW? How about looking into the past?

Texas A&M was charging ahead with the nuclear weapons program

NO REACTION. Whatsoever. Only the OMSK reacted to it... and then Lonestar said the following:

'Complete nonsense, of course. As you well know the nuclear powered vessels the navy uses utilizes highly enriched material to increase the time between fueling. No doubt the OMSK Pact is mistaking routine material production for naval resources as a nuclear weapons program.'

Dr. Perry added that the Lone Star Republic has satisfactory met all M.E.S.S. inspection standards in regards to weapons of mass destruction, and the accusations were just accusations for the sake of picking a fight

Really? Well, guys, you will have a lot of explaining to do.

How much did Lonestar, or for that issue, the MESS, pay you to be completely silent about THIS, but raise a huge fuss when the OMSK actually responded in kind?

EDIT: even if you just "thought it", the scrapping of the nuclear powered vessels was a pretty clear indicator you're doing it, because we did the same to pursue a nuclear program.

At the time it was pursued I didn't see anyone raising a fuss.

[Lonestar]

Oh, I don't mind the "meat" of your post Stas, I was referring to the specific quotation marks around "dealing with the OMSK Pact".

In any event, I've responded.

[Lonestar]

Bean...

dude, the tests took place in the Midland Missile range. I even had a Midland newspaper talk about earthquakes.

EDIT: Also Stas, of course the Mess is complicit...the inspectors were there for progress reports.

[Mr Bean]

I've posted a followup on the nuclear issue, and on your dastardly Secret underground Nuclear tests.

Which FYI Lonestar posted about back in the other thread ("Mysterious earthquakes and suchlike)

Bean...

dude, the tests took place in the Midland Missile range. I even had a Midland newspaper talk about earthquakes.

EDIT: Also Stas, of course the Mess is complicit...the inspectors were there for progress reports.

I think it's funner if your Nuclear Testing range also doubles as a wildlife preserve, and hey, it sounds Texan to me.

[Lonestar]

How about:

"Permian Basin Wildlife and Petroleum Refuge"(which borders the Midland Missile range)?

[Mr Bean]

How about:

"Permian Basin Wildlife and Petroleum Refuge"(which borders the Midland Missile range)?

Done

[K. A. Pital]

Also Stas, of course the Mess is complicit...

Since our anti spysat laws mean there are no spy satellites in Low Orbit, I will use the drones again.

I remember Rogue telling me it's all okay. I didn't think it was fine to ruin our public relations over a nuke test and hide behind the "international community" which can't notice a nuclear program right under their nose.

Of course, the fact that he acted as a spokesman and assured that rogue acting MESS nations can be reigned, like OMSK ones, by a decision of some greater authority, I took that word.

Apparently it's not so, and now we have neutrals and MESS harping about "OMSK WULD DOMINATION". This will not fly. We actually trade with other peopel unlike the MESS, and ruining our reputation before our neutral allies is not something I take lightly.

[Dave]

I think it's the realization that any OMSK Pact member now has the ability to render any Duchy completely uninhabitable with a single device.

It's not "Oh, we're working on nuclear weapons, and we may have them eventually."
It's "Not only are we done with research, we just built and shot one off for a fucking wedding anniversary!"


It's the "Oh shit, it's real" realization, the realization that this happy little paradise is now "tainted" with nuclear weapons. The realization that it could all end if some unstable leader wakes up on the wrong side of bed one day. A leader who is not afraid to prep his troops in NBC gear before they move out to "expand the OMSK motherland" or "free New Wherevers-land from MESS oppression."


Nobody ('specially not the tiny Duchys) wants another cold war.
Nobody wants to repeat the mistakes of Old Earth.
Can we not put aside our quest for arms and superior weapons (a quest I myself am guilty of), and embrace the new, clean future that lies before us? (wow, I sound like a hippie )


Note: I do not actually expect things to go sour, especially after all the crises we've successfully resolved.
But that's what the gut reaction was.

[K. A. Pital]

I think it's the realization that any OMSK Pact member now has the ability to render any Duchy completely uninhabitable with a single device.

I think you realize that a 100 kt device will do the SAME no?

Oh, and why are you afraid of that? Why would you be targeted? You're an OMSK trade partner and you supply a crucial resource; you're a neutral and have nothing to fear; our targeting plans are not directed against nations that pose no threat.

But maybe it's because you have planned to have MESS nuclear installations in your territory? Nice idea actually, since Canissia declined to install ASAT and missiles fearing tensions, you can be used as a Cuba by the MESS.

Is that what you're afraid of? Tell me did you sign it already, or just pondering?

Because otherwise, there's no reason it HELL to nuke you, unless you attack a 200 million people alliance. Why would you want to do that? Suicide? IN that case, well duh.

A leader who is not afraid to prep his troops in NBC gear before they move out to "expand the OMSK motherland" or "free New Wherevers-land from MESS oppression."

The OMSK is not even a single STATE, we're only moving towards free people's movement and so far two states have voted in favour. But instead of leaving us to our devices, people start harping about banning all nuclear tests.

Well go on, BAN the MESS tests, as it seems, they did them earlier than we did and one needs to be fucking blind not to notice that on leaking intelligence.

Note that I actually offer people to get a M25 350 tons super-ramjet that can be used as an ultiamte deterrent weapon, just partner on the project.

What does the MESS offer to people? Fluffy bunnies? It's also an exclusive alliance which does not allow new members in, for the reason that it's based on the MESS while OMSK is ever-open to any new member and is ready to decide on Security Council expansion through an All-OMSK referenda.

SO tell me, what is wrong with us? Blowing up a nuke after it became mreo or less clear to EVERYONE Lonestar is making them?

[Coyote]

Whoa, Stas!

Bear in mind that I am trying to role-play a whole country. Whenever there's a nuclear test, it is guaranteed that people will "call to sever ties" and protest, and say all sorts of bad things. Not everything that my people do or say is necessarily what *I* as a character in the story would do or say... although I may at times have to bend to the will of the people if there is sufficient outrage over something.

For example, people calling to "sever ties with Shepnukistan"-- Canissia really has no ties to sever, we once bought Blackbeard missiles from them but the whole thing was practically handled through the mail. But people make calls like that because they don't really understand what's going on. Like when people in the USA called for "sanctions" against Afghanistan, not know we already had no trade with them to begin with...

Another thing to bear in mind is that the nuclear test was visible to thousands of civilians, so they're pants-wetting terrified.

--and please, in fairness, you left out the part where, at the bottom of the post, I stated that my own actions as King Arik were to refuse to cut ties and in fact rely on friendship with the Red Technocracy leadership (you!) to find a way to best deal with this.

I released a "strong statement of condemnation" to calm my population while more quietly insisting that the best way to handle this is with diplomacy.

The MESS summit was scheduled before the test took place, this just gives us something to talk about...

[K. A. Pital]

Well I understand you and Rogue remained reasonable enough.

But I can't belive the Lonestar thing did not cause any indignation whatsoever.

And the indignation spilled to neutrals with whom we trade, who didn't really understand much about the fact that our program is merely a response to the already existing MESS one (either they were not paying attention to what happened in Lonestar or just oblivious, which is one and the same).

Or they understood, but decided that OMSK is somewhere at fault here (for what, blowing OUR nuke in OUR test range?!).

In any case, this was a serious PR assassination, since neutral nations started acting like the mESS nations did in the beginning. Which meant anti-OMSK craze.

Well sure, Lonestar was the only one who replied honestly that he can't protest it, and he was damn right, but you ALL guys administered his nuckelar program and knew about it. So sorry, no cookies.

[PeZook]

Whoa, Stas. Paranoid much? The MESS paid small nations to ignore their weapons tests? N'Ton is bought off to become Cuba? We should all crack down on protesters now because civilians noticed a seven fucking megaton detonation and didn't notice three small underground tests?

They're protesters, and they have a right to protest all they want. You could have done an underground test, too, but you chose to blow up an entire island in a spectacular fashion.

Oh, and of course, then Shep sends in his troops to conduct excercises. Yeah, , you really need to know how to conduct an offensive in NBC gear if the only purpose of that weapon is deterrence

[K. A. Pital]

The MESS paid small nations to ignore their weapons tests?

I dont think it did, I think people just didn't care about Lonestar's program, well, save for us three in the OMSK SC. And I presume I'm right, because it looks that way.

N'Ton is bought off to become Cuba?

That is just showing how ridiculous his fears are. It's like... why would the US bomb Luxembourg?

We should all crack down on protesters now

Protesters are understandable. But N'Ton actually called to BAN all nuclear weapons. He didn't do anything before OMSK tested the device.

You could have done an underground test, too, but you chose to blow up an entire island in a spectacular fashion.

We were selecting a test ground, and decided that a remote northern island would be desirable since it allows to determine test results, harm no one and not infringe on the Central Sea, Bear Sea, or any other inner sea, less ecological problems.

Yeah, , you really need to know how to conduct an offensive in NBC gear if the only purpose of that weapon is deterrence

What's not realistic here? The USSR did not have even a few devices to use against the US, clearly a deterrent against a far larger arsenal, but it did test effects against protect gear. Just like the US did with their Dog test and a naval test with ships boarded soon after irradiated.

[Mr Bean]

Keep in mind also one of the VERY first offical joint OMSK acts was to create and offer ABM systems and AA systems to anyone who wanted to buy them. And what's more they are top of the line proven systems and the countries involved are nearly creating the systems at cost.

In other words before we created the weapons we made the shield. Hardly the course of a warmoning group now isn't it?

Yes Duchies can be killed by one nuke, most small countries can. Not everyone gets to be Spain, some of you are Road Island.

[K. A. Pital]

What is more important is that we can't adeqautely retaliate with conventional weapons against someone nuclear capable.

I mean, some of the biggest and most powerful conventional bombs constructed - the FOAB - only has around 0.3 percent of the power of the atomic bomb used against Hiroshima (a yield of 13 kilotons of TNT).

And you expected us to do NOTHING?!! There are many 100kt nukes which is enough to devastate around 30 key cities in the OMSK and we only have FOAB as our supreme weapon.

Come on.

EDIT: And really, in universe the explanation for no indignation of public over Lonestar's coverups meant either very solid, good lying from all involved (Lonestar and the MESS) or public indifference bought by financial means.

Out of u it means that peopel just didn't care when they read Lonestar's messages, but god forbid, the OMSK aquire weapons of adequate response power.

[DarthShady]

I must say only one thing to my fellow FUNGAL AXIS members:

WE ARE FUCKED!