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Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Shall we just assume one ASW copter per destroyer/frigate or anything that has a hanger for that?

No. Very few navies have a one-for-one Helo/surface combatant. They should be bought seperately.

Lonestar wrote:

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Shall we just assume one ASW copter per destroyer/frigate or anything that has a hanger for that?

No. Very few navies have a one-for-one Helo/surface combatant. They should be bought seperately.

Ok.. then we ought to add helicopters to the airforce list? Those helicopters are equipped differently from army ones.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Ok.. then we ought to add helicopters to the airforce list? Those helicopters are equipped differently from army ones.

They may be equipped differently but don't they have the same variety of roles? Minor equipment differences, I think, are irrelevant in that regard.

If they're going to be purchased, then they should be purchased from Navy points, since that's where they're going to be used. My take on the matter, anyway.

I suppose making us pay for each helo does suck away points, which prevents us from doing "fleet spam".

They may be equipped differently, but they're still going to end up costing the same, so why not just lump them in with the helicopters on the army/helicopter page of the spreadsheet?

Vohu Manah wrote:They may be equipped differently but don't they have the same variety of roles? Minor equipment differences, I think, are irrelevant in that regard.

I've been researching the various versions of the UH-60 Blackhawk/Seahawk (Naval version-- includes KnightHawk, Rescue Hawk, etc) and it appears that ALL Navy helos have at least some limited ASW ability (the dedicated ASW ones are best at it, of course, with extra specialized equipment).

The LAMPS version (Light Airborne Multi-Purpose System) is a jack-of-all trades type that is put on the back decl of Cruisers, Destroyers, and Frigates.

I guess actually it doesn't matter which "point pool" you buy them from, since any leftover points from one group (ie, a small Navy) can be rooled over to anothe rgroup (ie, a powerful Air Force).

After all, a landlocked nation could forgo Navy spending entirely and divide between Army and Air Force for a kickass combo.

I guess actually it doesn't matter which "point pool" you buy them from, since any leftover points from one group (ie, a small Navy) can be rolled over to another group (ie, a powerful Air Force).

After all, a landlocked nation could forgo Navy spending entirely and divide between Army and Air Force for a kickass combo.

Island nations don't need much Army at all, just enough for shore defenses, and can even have a truncated Air Force if they want to count on carrier-based air defenses...

So what's next, we have to pay extra points if we want our LPDs to have real landing craft, or if we want an actual truck to tow our towed artillery with, or if we want torpedoes for our submarines? Do we have to spend stuff on HEMTTs or else go unsupplied in the field as well? Seriously, this unbridled point system expansion schtick is getting ridiculous. Knock yourselves out with whatever else you want to add if that's what gets your juices flowing, but my army is bare-bones enough as it is and I'm not going to dilute my point spread any further with nonsense such as engineers or motorlaunches or extra helo variants or whatever else that by rights should be part of all the extra military stuff that is taken for granted. Or do you guys want us to spend extra points if we want M4s for our troops rather than AK-47 knockoffs as well?

I say we just compare our GDPs with what real-life countries have, and see if we can have as much guns as them.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I say we just compare our GDPs with what real-life countries have, and see if we can have as much guns as them.

That works up to a point, until you realize many nations that would make good models have chronically under funded their militaries by spending less than %2 on defense, a situation I think no one in SD.net world would duplicate. The problem is if one isn't an expert it is very hard to figure out what your military would look like with x dollars a year for a budget. (especially when you consider militaries are built over decades.)

Points aren't perfect, but working with just a budget wouldn't be feasable for those of us that aren't really hardcore military experts.

The "simplicity/playability vs. realism/unwieldly" wall is being hit. Hard.

As it is, I wouldn't be surprised that we are hitting some 10% or slightly less of our GPD for our military spending. No realistic nation would tolerate say my nation with some 2-3 carriers, and nuclear no less.

I'll second SiegeTank. This shit is getting to complicated.

I have enough problems with making my OOB already. Some of us are not military experts.

And now I have a few questions. If anyone is willing to help.

1. How do I differentiate between heavy and medium self propelled artillery?

2. How do I differentiate between medium and light Air Defence Artillery?

3. Does anyone know a good site on Russian military stuff? With detailed information.(Wiki is not helping me with certain things.)

4. Would anyone be willing to check my OOB and make sure I'm not braking any rules or doing something that doesn't make sense?

If the questions are stupid you can laugh but I would appreciate the help. As I said before I am not a military expert.

I just dont understand why this has become a big problem. As long as we get fairly close to the "real world" with points or any other system, thats good enough for me. We don't have to model every damn little thing, just the raw basicas of everyone's combat power. If something isn't on the chart, just buy what is closest to it.

Any gaps in capability can filled with early in game procurements anyway.

DarthShady wrote:1. How do I differentiate between heavy and medium self propelled artillery?

Russian MSTA-S 2S19 152mm guns are medium SP arty. Anything above is heavy.

2. How do I differentiate between medium and light Air Defence Artillery?

In that thread where Bean consolidated Beowulf's suggestion there's an indication of what constitutes medium and light. Light often refers to units like Tugunska and the derivatives.

3. Does anyone know a good site on Russian military stuff? With detailed information.(Wiki is not helping me with certain things.)

Sadly, I don't, beyond wikipedia.

4. Would anyone be willing to check my OOB and make sure I'm not braking any rules or doing something that doesn't make sense?

Well, just post it here...

Thanks Fingolfin.

In that thread where Bean consolidated Beowulf's suggestion there's an indication of what constitutes medium and light. Light often refers to units like Tugunska and the derivatives.

Do you have a link?

Ok, this is what I have so far:

DarthShady wrote:OOB of the USSR(United Socialist Shadow Republic)

Navy

2------LHD/LHA (Small)
---Polnocny class landing ship
6------LST
---Ropucha class landing ship
1------CG
---Slava class cruiser
2------DDG
---Kashin class destroyer
4------Corvette
---Steregushchy class corvette
1------SSN
---Sierra class submarine
6------SSK
---Kilo class submarine
3------AKE
3------AO

Air Force

40-------4th Generation Fighters
---Mikoyan MiG-31
60-------3rd Generation Fighters/Divided into:
---40 MiG-21 and
---20 Sukhoi Su-17
2---------Strategic Bombers
---Tupolev Tu-160
3---------Tanker
---Ilyushin Il-78
2---------Heavy AWACs
---Beriev A-50
2---------Light AWACs
64--------Trainer Aircraft
---Yakovlev Yak-130
8---------Strategic Transport
---Ilyushin Il-76
8---------Tactical Transport
---Antonov An-12
1---------Recon (w/o base)


Army

60-------MBT 3rd Gen
---T-90
240------MBT 2nd Gen
---T-72
720-----AFV [non-MBT] 2nd Gen/Compromising of:
---400 APC BTR-80
---300 IFV BMP-2
---Reconnaissance: 20 BTR-40
27------MLRS-type Artillery
---BM-30 Smerch
16------Heavy SP Artillery
32------Medium SP Artillery
36------Medium Towed Artillery
72------Field Towed Artillery
48------Medium Air Defense Artillery
64------Light Air Defense Artillery
30------Utility Helicopter
---Kamov Ka-60
48------Attack Helicopter
---Mil Mi-28
20000 soldiers---Professional Infantry
2700--------------Marines
900---------------Paratroopers
800---------------Engineers
60----------------"Elite" Special Forces

Shady, my advice is more frigates. Even if you limit your fleet to the Black Sea (and leave me and Stas to guard the Bosphorous and beyond), your LHDs are kinda useless if you can't guard them adequately.

Otherwise, should be fine.

As for link: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=125247

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Shady, my advice is more frigates. Even if you limit your fleet to the Black Sea (and leave me and Stas to guard the Bosphorous and beyond), your LHDs are kinda useless if you can't guard them adequately.

Otherwise, should be fine.

Thanks. I'll see if I can rearrange some points and get more frigates.

EDIT: Also, when the game starts I'll be buying a lot of stuff to plug up any holes.

Because I can't have everything now.

DarthShady wrote:Does anyone know a good site on Russian military stuff? With detailed information.(Wiki is not helping me with certain things.)

Try Army-Technology.com (there are naval-technology and airforce-technology sister sites as well). I don't think it's got everything, but I've still found it very helpful: it's got military gear from all over the world.

There we go. I have the Navy all kitted out, with helos and support craft accounted for.

I was also going to chunk out the numbers for a Marine Expeditionary Unit but point allocations fo tanks & IFVs, etc, are for blocks of 60 to 120, and a typical MEU has only a 2-3 dozen total of armored fighting vehicles... so I just made a standard MEU a 5-point cost and called it at that.

Here's what I got:

CAPITOL WARSHIPS: 1000 points allocated from 3000 point limit.

"Triton"-class Cruiser-Carrier (Nuclear Cruiser-Carrier; "Admiral Kuznetsov" look-alike) =16 pts.
5 flights of FA-18E Super Hornets (2 pts per flight = 10 pts)
2 EA-18G Growler EW (=2 pts)
2 E2D Hawkeye-type AWACs (=2 pts)
2 C2 Greyhound Air Tankers/Cargo planes (2 pts)
2 MH-60 LAMPS-III helos =2 pts
Ship + Planes = 34 points.

"Neptune"-class Amphib Assault (Nuclear Amphib Assault; "Wasp" look-alike) =16 pts.
Standard Complement:
8 AV-8B Harrier attack aircraft (2 pts per flight = 8 pts)
4 KA-50 Black Shark attack helicopters (2 pts per helo =8 pts)
12 MH-60 KnightHawk helicopters (2 pts per helo =24)
2 SH-60 Oceanhawk (ASW) (2 pts per helo =4 pts)
2 CH-53 Sea Stallion helicopters (3 pts per helo =6 pts)
2 MH-60 LAMPS-III (1 pt per helo =2 pts)
3 LCAC landers (2 pts per lander = 6 pts)
1 MEU (Marine Expeditionary Force = 5 pts)
Ship + Planes = 82 points.

"Kraken"-class Cruisers (Nuclear; "Ticonderoga" look-alike) =12 pts.
2 MH-60 LAMPS-III helos =2 pts
Ship + Helos =14 pts.

"Raidaa"-class Destroyers ("Arleigh-Burke /Flight IIA" look-alike) =4 pts.
2 MH-60 LAMPS-III helos =2 pts
Ship + Helos =6 pts.

"F100"-lass Frigates ("F100" look-alike) =2 pts.
1 MH-60 LAMPS-III helos =1 pts
Ship + Helos =3 pts.

"Anuket"-class Corvettes (NATO-ized Russian "Tarantul" look-alike) =1 pt.

"Pegasus"-class Hydrofoils ("Pegasus"-class look-alike) =1 pt.

"Seahorse"-class Minesweepers ("Frankenthal"-class look-alike) =1pt.

"Victoria"-class SSKs ("Victoria"-class SSK look-alike) =2 pts.

"Seawolf"-class SSNs ("Seawolf"-class SSN look-alike) =4 pts.


"Provider"-class Replenishment ship, heavy ("Lews and Clark"-class look-alikes) =2 pts
2 MH-60 LAMPS-III helos =2 pts
Ship + Helos =4 pts.

"Sustainer"-class Replenishment ship, light ("Type-404/Elbe"-class look-alikes) =2pts
1 MH-60 LAMPS-III helos =1 pt
Ship + Helos =3 pts.

"Industrialist"-class Oiler ("Henry J. Kaiser"-class look-alike) =2pts
1 MH-60 LAMPS-III helos =1 pt
Ship + Helos =3 pts.

"Supply"-class Task Force Underway Replenishment ships ("Supply"-class look-alike) =4pts

"Onager"-class Oceangoing tug/recovery vessel ("USNS Apache T-ATF-172"-class look-alike) =2pts

"Hope"-class RO/RO Strategic Positioning ships ("USNS Bob Hope (T-AKR-300)"-class look-alike) =2pts

"Stalwart"-class Ocean surveillance ship ("Stalwart") =3pts.


CANISSIAN ROYAL NAVY:
3 "Triton"-class Carriers (x34) (102 pts)
3 "Neptune"-class Amphib Assault (x82) (246 pts)
8 "Kraken"-class Cruisers (x14) (112 pts)
30 "Raidaa"-class Destroyers (x6) (180 pts)
40 "F100"-class Frigates (x3) (120 pts)
30 "Anuket"-class Corvettes (x1) (30 pts)
30 "Pegasus"-class Corvette/Hydrofoils (x1) (30 pts)
6 "Seahorse"-class Minesweepers (x1) (6 pts)
14 "Victoria"-class SSKs (x2) (28 pts)
8 "Seawolf"-class SSNs (x4) (32 pts)

886 pts for combatants


2 "Provider"-class Supply ships (x4) (8 pts)
2 "Industrialist"-class oilers (x3) (6 pts)
4 "Supply"-class TFUR ships (x4) (16 pts)
6 "Sustainer"-class Supply ships (x3) (18 pts)
6 "Onager"-class Ocean tugs (x2) (12 pts)
6 "Hope"-class RO/RO (x2) (12 pts)
4 "Stalwart"-class Surveillance (x3) (8 pts)

80 pts for support ships


SEAL Team 1 = 4 points
SEAL Team 2 = 4 points
SEAL Team 3 = 4 points
SEAL Team 4 = 4 points


982 points spent/18 left of 1000 pts allocated.

Yes, I spammed LAMPS helos on my supply & replenishment ships. They'd be prime targets for enemy subs, so it made sense, since I'd be charged for a BS utility helicopter I decided to go the extra point and give my logistics some means of defense from their most dangerous predators.

SIMPLICITY:

How about this:

INFANTRY BRIGADE:
Infantry, Light: 2 points
Infantry, Airborne: 3 points
Infantry, Motorized : 4 points
Infantry, Mechanized: 5 points


TRAINING MODIFIERS:
Screaming Horde (Only available for "Infantry, Light"): 0 points.
Conscript Training (most basic training): +1 to cost per Brigade.
Professional Service (basic plus professionalism, initiative): +2 to cost per Brigade
Legacy/Guards Brigade (exceptionally high standards, history to live up to): +3 to cost per Brigade

Elite Forces Infantry (Rangers): +5 to cost of Brigade; limited to 2 such BrigadeS per country level.

Special Forces Brigade: +10 per cost of Brigade; limited to 1 such Brigade per country level. ("Green Berets"; Spetznaz; SEALS; Delta; GSG-9; Sayyeret Matkal; SAS, etc)



EQUIPMENT MODIFIERS:
"Warlord Militia": Bring your own gun: +0 cost to Brigade.
"Third World": AK-47, canteen, backpack, uniform, blanket, steel helmet. Good luck. +1 cost to Brigade.
"Conscript": Basic kit plus a few amenities, sleeping bag: +2 to Brigade.
"Professional": Well-kitted, high-performance gear, radios, GPS: +3 cost to Brigade.
"Elite Kit": High-performance gera plus gadgets, gizmos, sniper scopes, laser sights, etc: +4 cost per Brigade.


===================================


ARMORED BRIGADE:
Armored, Light/Tankettes w/Machineguns only: 3 points
Armored, Airborne or Amphib: 5 points
Armored Cavalry "Medium": 5 points
Armored, Heavy: 6 points


TRAINING MODIFIERS:
Screaming Horde (In other words, "Technicals"): 0 points.
Conscript Training (most basic training): +1 to cost per Brigade.
Professional Service (basic plus professionalism, initiative): +2 to cost per Brigade
Legacy/Guards Brigade (exceptionally high standards, history to live up to): +3 to cost per Brigade


EQUIPMENT MODIFIERS:
"Warlord Militia": Technicals w/Machinehguns, RPGs: +0 cost to Brigade.
"Third World": Gen-I tanks, WW2 & 1950's leftovers: +1 cost to Brigade.
"Conscript": Gen-II/60's & 70's era tanks: +2 to Brigade.
"Professional": Gen-III 80's era tanks: +3 cost to Brigade.
"Elite Kit": Gen-IV 90's & '00's-era latest whizbang tanks +4 cost per Brigade.




Is this a bit easier?

Coyote wrote:SIMPLICITY:

*snip*

This being in addition to the equipment you have to buy (tanks, ADA, arty, etc.) or a total replacement of the previous army system?

Because if it's the latter - I like it a lot (not in the least place because my 70 army points now buy me a lot more than three measly brigades!)

Repeat my request, how much would a few modernised Iowa's cost me under the point system?

SiegeTank wrote:

Coyote wrote:SIMPLICITY:

*snip*

This being in addition to the equipment you have to buy (tanks, ADA, arty, etc.) or a total replacement of the previous army system?

Because if it's the latter - I like it a lot (not in the least place because my 70 army points now buy me a lot more than three measly brigades!)

I'd say it includes all necessary equipment for the Brigade to function at it's determined Training & Equipment level.

My system would allow a government to have, say, a highly Professionally-trained army with Conscript-kit equipment... or a Warlord Horde with Elite level gear, if so desired (like African warlords that get lavishly equipped by the US to fight the local enemy of the month).

Or, for example, to build Soviet-style units, where you have "Guards Brigades", with history and reputation, but with Conscript-level equipment.

Simplicity uber alles, I say.


[edit]:I changed this, so that even the smallest nations can afford Special Forces, if they're willing to bear the cost:

Elite Forces Infantry (Rangers): +5 to cost of Brigade; limited to 2 such BrigadeS per country level.

Special Forces Brigade: +10 per cost of Brigade; limited to 1 such Brigade per country level. ("Green Berets"; Spetznaz; SEALS; Delta; GSG-9; Sayyeret Matkal; SAS, etc)