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Formless wrote:And that purpose is to... further the interests of the K-Zone powers and only the K-Zone powers. Sorry, that's railroading and I have no tolerance for it. Never have, never will, do not ask me to change my mind about it. I've had that experience before, and it never ends well.

So essentially, you are being an idiot, and you would rather stuff your head into the mud and die than grow a bloody brain cell.

Oh woe me. This thing is half a galaxy away, and quite frankly, it doesn't interest us as much as it interests the surrounding nations.

And in actual fact, we have some things to concern ourselves with in our own immediate vicinity.

Why don't you get the fuck out of the thread and stop reading since it breaks your sensibilities?

So, Formless.

Your last few posts were fixated on apparently how the Goddess wasn't an esper/psyker, and so what we did was terrible. We have shown how it was established in in-game terms that there are godlike beings in the story with or without psychic powers, that Sasha was already meant to be a very powerful entity herself (supposedly 50/80/whatever points) by CN, and apparently the last portion of that argument was you disagreeing on how a sentence described her as "a psychic star", which can be explained through many ways.

So, Sasha doesn't have to be a psyker to do what she did.

With that objection out of the way, we go with railroading? How is it railroading? We've established a backstory before we posted our Eye of Terror post, we had several leading posts describing the Goddess and her activities and her devil deals with fell powers. Several players have their own backstory hinging in fact on their societies escaping evil godlike entities from other realities (Refuge and the Lost, and also the Chamarrans). The whole metastory of the game actually involves Q manipulating reality, creating worlds, and plopping people into the universe.

So, how is this exactly railroading? Aside from the fact that it precludes several posters from their intended plans with Sasha. Byzantium wanted Sasha. The Centralites wanted Sasha. The Refuge wanted Sasha. Hell, even the Collectors and the Lost wanted Sasha. Are they going to quarter her into ten pieces, and share her corpse equally between them like slices of pie?

And as Siege says.

It’s a strong suggestion obviously, because we’ve put a lot of thought and effort into it and we think it’s a fair and interesting and dramatically pleasing outcome, but we’ll be happy to work with any suggestions you might have to add, or indeed answer any questions you may have about it.

What's the next thing you're going to object?

Formless wrote: Let me tell you something: I still don't give a flying fuck, and I can and will call in the moderators (the REAL ones, you know, Thanas or Lagmonster) if you do not stop with this ad hominim bullshit every time someone new to the game or low on story posts criticizes you. DEAL WITH THE FUCKING CRITICISM, OR STFU. Your attitudes stink like dog turds, and are not acceptable just because this is one of the less than serious forums. And yes, there are answers to my criticisms. Neither of you have even bothered.

You will?

Shroom Man 777 wrote: So, Sasha doesn't have to be a psyker to do what she did.

What does "being a psyker" even mean? The Imperium calls every ESP capable being a "psyker". There's half a dozen ESP "styles" in the galaxy already, and the effects can and often are replicated with exotic technology (see all my Algeira and Zubrich posts with One, the Special Circumstances agent). Better yet, ESPers of various types can pick each other up and use their abilities on each other.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Pray tell, how would that interest K-Zone powers in anyway in game?

For starters, the Byzantines get to have their genocide when everyone else wanted a relatively civilized war. The Bragulans get the same, and they get their Inhumanist League, and they get to say "technically, we didn't do the nuking *smug*". Meanwhile the human coalition (especially the Centralists) and even members of your own coalition get the shaft. I'm not trying to be a dick here, I'm just saying. You guys got exactly what you wanted, simply by managing to post it first.

How is it railroading?

...Aside from the fact that it precludes several posters from their intended plans with Sasha.

...and you did not even try to work this out with those players. You just posted out of impatience and betrayed every ally you have. Do keep in mind you are outnumbered, and they now have every reason to start shooting Bragulans and Byzantines alike (both in space and on the ground), should they so choose to do so.

@ Fin: grow up, worm. All you have is derision, which is to say nothing.

PeZook wrote:You will?

Yes. I realize that may come as a shock to some people, but I really have no patience for this kind of trolling; that is, dismissals and attempts to silence someone for arbitrary reasons. I'm not going to call them in to moderate the game itself, because I can simply leave and watch the game collapse (or not) under its own weight. It may be fine in Testing, but this is still supposed to be a step up from Testing. Its the principle of the thing.

Formless wrote: For starters, the Byzantines get to have their genocide when everyone else wanted a relatively civilized war. The Bragulans get the same, and they get their Inhumanist League, and they get to say "technically, we didn't do the nuking *smug*". Meanwhile the human coalition (especially the Centralists) and even members of your own coalition get the shaft. I'm not trying to be a dick here, I'm just saying. You guys got exactly what you wanted, simply by managing to post it first.

So,uh, how about you let those "betrayed" posters say what they think?

They might like it, or they might object in which case the post will be changed and/or retracted, as was already agreed upon.

Formless wrote:...and you did not even try to work this out with those players. You just posted out of impatience and betrayed every ally you have. Do keep in mind you are outnumbered, and they now have every reason to start shooting Bragulans and Byzantines alike (both in space and on the ground), should they so choose to do so.

In which case, should the coalition decide to punish the Brags and Imperials for their attitude, the MEHstomp will actually become interesting. Your point?

Yes. I realize that may come as a shock to some people, but I really have no patience for this kind of trolling (that is, dismissals and attempts to silence someone for arbitrary reasons. I'm not going to call them in to moderate the game itself). It may be fine in Testing, but this is still supposed to be a step up from Testing. Its the principle of the thing.

What? Who the hell silences you? Siege and Shroom answered all your points. People just got annoyed at your pointless nitpicking of the word "psychic".

PeZook wrote:

Formless wrote: For starters, the Byzantines get to have their genocide when everyone else wanted a relatively civilized war. The Bragulans get the same, and they get their Inhumanist League, and they get to say "technically, we didn't do the nuking *smug*". Meanwhile the human coalition (especially the Centralists) and even members of your own coalition get the shaft. I'm not trying to be a dick here, I'm just saying. You guys got exactly what you wanted, simply by managing to post it first.

So,uh, how about you let those "betrayed" posters say what they think?

They might like it, or they might object in which case the post will be changed and/or retracted, as was already agreed upon.

Darkevilme already did so. I can also vouch from interacting with Sorchus IRL that he's seriously pissed right now over pretty much everything. So, uh, yeah.

In which case, should the coalition decide to punish the Brags and Imperials for their attitude, the MEHstomp will actually become interesting. Your point?

Some of those powers were already there, and the shooting would have already started by the time the Byzantines got into orbit around MEH-Earth.

What? Who the hell silences you? Siege and Shroom answered all your points. People just got annoyed at your pointless nitpicking of the word "psychic".

Siege didn't mention any of that until AFTER the offending post, and neither did Fin. What makes you think their beef with me is about the argument over Sasha's powers and NOT exactly what it looks like-- that I shouldn't complain because I've yet to post IC? Hell, Ryan Thunder made a similar post right after my first long before he complained that I was nitpicking. And I've seen similar behavior from them before, too, so I have every reason to think it really is an arbitrary dismissal.

PeZook wrote:

Shroom Man 777 wrote: So, Sasha doesn't have to be a psyker to do what she did.

What does "being a psyker" even mean? The Imperium calls every ESP capable being a "psyker". There's half a dozen ESP "styles" in the galaxy already, and the effects can and often are replicated with exotic technology (see all my Algeira and Zubrich posts with One, the Special Circumstances agent). Better yet, ESPers of various types can pick each other up and use their abilities on each other.

Psyker is generally considered synonymous with esper and psion.

However, Tianguonese moshu is apparently a separate phenomenon from psykery/ESP (Beowulf can explain this). Q's powers may also not be psychic in nature. Neither are Karlacks' abilities to shoot energy beams or jump through hyperspace using their organoids.

Godlike abilities may not necessarily mean psychic/psyker/esper abilities.

Formless wrote:For starters, the Byzantines get to have their genocide when everyone else wanted a relatively civilized war. The Bragulans get the same, but without the risk of losing the advantage of being in the Inhumanist League. Meanwhile the human coalition (especially the Centralists) and even members of your own coalition get the shaft. I'm not trying to be a dick here, I'm just saying. You guys got exactly what you wanted, simply by managing to post it first.

Not trying to be a dick? Your very first post regarding the matter was a screed that devolved into threatening "vast evil conspiracy" attacks on Fin and Siege's nations for totally not-personal reasons.

...Aside from the fact that it precludes several posters from their intended plans with Sasha.

We wrote our actions, posted it, and it differed from other people's plans. And we've admitted that yes, it conflicts with a lot of other people's wishes and plans. We've stated that the Eye of Terror post is a suggestion, we've left it for the game mods (and not Lagmonster, Dalton or Mike Wong or Kanos) to canonize or not, we've answered questions and we've opened ourselves to suggestion and left the actual Battle of Sol open for any entries.

...and you did not even try to work this out with those players. You just posted out of impatience and betrayed every ally you have. Do keep in mind you are outnumbered, and they now have every reason to start shooting Bragulans and Byzantines alike (both in space and on the ground), should they so choose to do so.

How did the Bragulans betray their allies? We were under conditions not to commit atrocities in Sol, and we didn't. The Byzantines did. Foolish human shits, etcetera. As far as I'm aware, the Bragulans have not wronged any of their Inhumanist allies. The Chamarrans, Eoghans, Refugees, Ascendants, Nova-Atlanteans, and all other allies are free to make of it however they will.

Formless wrote: Darkevilme already did so. I can also vouch from interacting with Sorchus IRL that he's seriously pissed right now over pretty much everything. So, uh, yeah.

Yeah, so? Simon made his ruling. In the worst case the post will be made non-canon. What's your point, again?

Formless wrote:Some of those powers were already there, and the shooting would have already started by the time the Byzantines got into orbit around MEH-Earth.

That's for the players involved to decide.

Formless wrote:Siege didn't mention any of that until AFTER the offending post, and neither did Fin. What makes you think their beef with me is about the argument over Sasha's powers and NOT exactly what it looks like-- that I shouldn't complain because I've yet to post IC? Hell, Ryan Thunder made a similar post right after my first long before he complained that I was nitpicking. And I've seen similar behavior from them before, too, so I have every reason to think it really is an arbitrary dismissal.

Arbitrary dismissal of what? Your post was mostly about Sasha not being a psychic, and the "inconsistent" (read: varied) portrayal of the MEH, which is an entirely subjective opinion seeing as the man who made the MEH can't exactly comment on what his intentions were.

Then you proceed to speak for everybody else involved in the battle of sol as if they didn't have their own voice, when your peeps aren't even anywhere nearby...

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Not trying to be a dick? Your very first post regarding the matter was a screed that devolved into threatening "vast evil conspiracy" attacks on Fin and Siege's nations for totally not-personal reasons.

*shrug* It was late, and I've been under a lot of stress lately. But in any case, that was the point of those threats-- to show the potential for dickery ret-cons open up if people start doing them at will. And that's not to say that ret-cons are always bad-- look at the Ranoidians. Well, okay, it was trading one ADHD lemming with another, but it was a harmless trade. If people just start doing them whenever they feel like, on the other hand...

And I conceded already that it wasn't actually a ret-con like I thought it was. Like I said, I really am not trying to be a dick, but its hard to do so while also posting in good faith.

We wrote our actions, posted it, and it differed from other people's plans. And we've admitted that yes, it conflicts with a lot of other people's wishes and plans. We've stated that the Eye of Terror post is a suggestion, we've left it for the game mods (and not Lagmonster, Dalton or Mike Wong or Kanos) to canonize or not, we've answered questions and we've opened ourselves to suggestion and left the actual Battle of Sol open for any entries.

I don't deny that, but I don't think that is enough either. What's left for everyone else to write? You've taken away their ability to effect the outcome of the events at MEH-Earth, the part everyone cared about, and all they have left is the ability to react to you, or write descriptive posts about how the battle went down. Some people might be fine with that, others not so much.

How did the Bragulans betray their allies? We were under conditions not to commit atrocities in Sol, and we didn't. The Byzantines did. Foolish human shits, etcetera. As far as I'm aware, the Bragulans have not wronged any of their Inhumanist allies. The Chamarrans, Eoghans, Refugees, Ascendants, Nova-Atlanteans, and all other allies are free to make of it however they will.

Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but the events at Xena pretty much cemented that the Byzantines are part of the Ominous attack plans, and someone had to have invited them. Plus, how exactly do the bears expect to keep the rest of Ominous at bay while they watch the Byzantines drop colonies onto MEH-Earth? Like you said, "foolish human shits, etc." but they are right there watching these events happen. Where are the shots being fired at Byzantine ships? The shooting of Bragulan ships might not happen immediately, but how do they expect to stop the Chamarrans, Eoghans, Atlanteans, Formics, Etc. from blasting the hell out of some battle barges without opening fire themselves? Diplomacy? Seems a bit late for a diplomatic solution.

PeZook wrote:Yeah, so? Simon made his ruling. In the worst case the post will be made non-canon. What's your point, again?

Simon made a ruling? I didn't see that. Mind pointing me to it?

That's for the players involved to decide.

Fine. Never said otherwise. But this is looking like the logical conclusion, even putting aside what I know from private conversation.

Arbitrary dismissal of what? Your post was mostly about Sasha not being a psychic, and the "inconsistent" (read: varied) portrayal of the MEH, which is an entirely subjective opinion seeing as the man who made the MEH can't exactly comment on what his intentions were.

Then you proceed to speak for everybody else involved in the battle of sol as if they didn't have their own voice, when your peeps aren't even anywhere nearby...

And? YOUR point is? I was told to shut the fuck up period, multiple times, and the stated reason was... I haven't posted IC yet. Where are you getting this impression it has anything to do with the validity of my arguments? And why exactly is it a bad thing to criticize just because my nation isn't involved? Neither is Siege's, yet he is the one who posted Downfall in the first place.

PeZook wrote:

Formless wrote:Darkevilme already did so. I can also vouch from interacting with Sorchus IRL that he's seriously pissed right now over pretty much everything. So, uh, yeah.

Yeah, so? Simon made his ruling. In the worst case the post will be made non-canon. What's your point, again?

For the record, my view is that the post should stand in a state of ambiguous-canon until everyone's made up their minds what to think of it.

Anyone whose nation's interests are actually inconvenienced by the proposed ending created by Fin, Siege, and Shroom is welcome, nay, encouraged to air their objections and try to seek a mutually acceptable resolution.

Aside from that I would prefer to stay out of the fray for now.

Formless wrote:Let me tell you something: I still don't give a flying fuck, and I can and will call in the moderators (the REAL ones, you know, Thanas or Lagmonster) if you do not stop with this ad hominim bullshit every time someone new to the game or low on story posts criticizes you. DEAL WITH THE FUCKING CRITICISM, OR STFU. Your attitudes stink like dog turds, and are not acceptable just because this is one of the less than serious forums. And yes, there are answers to my criticisms. Neither of you have even bothered.

Formless, what this boils down to is that you dislike the way the game is played by others. Now, yes Fin has a bad attitude about this, but other people whose attitudes are far less bad are basically all right with what he is doing.

You, on the other hand, are charging around with a massive raging chip on your shoulder. Not only do you personally dislike something that has happened in the game, but you seem to think that your personal dislike grants you special power to demand a reckoning from the people who want it to happen. And you won't take their responses for an answer- you've already had this addressed by Shroomy, by me, by Siege, and you just don't seem to care.

If you really want to bring in a real mod, I'll see what I can do. Steve might be interested in the way you're behaving, although I suspect he'll be more annoyed by your temper tantrum than he is by the Sasha thing.

Its also inappropriate from a game context for the following reason. I was strongly suggested to use the OOC thread a little before posting in the story thread. To get a feel for the game and the people playing it. To discuss the game in good faith, as I had even before joining the game.

So far? Unimpressed. You two are the biggest dickwads in this game, routinely post here in bad faith, and I think its time someone told you that. Bullshit like this is as stupid as saying that a film critic needs to have directed two successful films before they can be taken seriously, or that a book critic needs to have at least one trilogy published under their name before they deserve to be read. Worse, even, because this is an interactive story and your attitude is the single biggest obstacle to participating.

Formless, I cannot for the life of me understand how anything anyone else has done stops you from posting anything.

As to the OOC thread, I was willing to take your criticisms seriously- I did. What I am not willing to do is cower in fear of your ludicrous temper tantrum. Why are you so indignant about an event which does not involve your nation, which does not threaten your nation, which does not interfere with a single damn thing you wrote or plan to write in any way?

Do you actually have any coherent purpose in posting these remarks in OOC other than trying to garner attention for yourself?

And no, I'm not saying this because you're "that guy." I'm saying this because what you're doing is stupid- whether you've done it before or not is immaterial.

And if I hear any more whining about how I'm being "That Guy" or assinine shit like that, you can fuck off or take it to the moderators. Again, the real moderators. Not Simon or RougeIce. Thanas or Lagmonster, or whomever you think will care that actually has power on this board.

While we're looking for real moderators of this forum... I wonder what Shep would think of this? He is, you will note, empowered to moderate this forum.

Formless wrote:I was also thinking of some of the stuff Darkevilme posted too, but this looked more pressing because of the bad precedent it appeared to create. I'm sorry for not reading more carefully with regards to certain recent posts establishing Sasha's ascension to true godhood, but bear in mind its been busy this week and I haven't been able to keep up with everything that has been posted here.

Then why didn't you wait and start shouting about how bad the plot was after you'd read what was happening?

That said, I think in a game that was supposed to be rules lite trying to bend the rules to your favor is a lesser problem to trying to railroad the story.

Trying to gain advantages by manipulating the rules is a big no-no in a situation like this. It annoys the people who wrote the rules, it annoys the people trying to keep people following the rules, and it annoys the people who want a rules-light game by forcing them to pay more attention than they'd like to juggling the numbers associated with the rules. It is, in short, poor sportsmanship.

In my mind, the MEH stomp from the beginning was always going to end more in the spirit of (the military-political equivalent to) Stealth Fail than what it has become just due to the sheer number of people involved with conflicting agendas.

Yes, and your expectations would make more difference if you were involved in the MEH war in any way, which you're not. As such, you don't have a right to expect it to turn out the way you wanted.

The logical response, of course, is to give time for things to happen. No resolution to the MEH war could occur without at least some people making posts that involve major events happening, without directly involving all the people who might be affected by those events. But instead, before waiting to see what would happen or how the other players reacted to Siege and Fin and Shroom's idea, you started jumping up and down and screaming about how it's impossible because Sasha isn't psychic.

Which makes you look foolish and short-tempered at best. You are not an injured party here, your right to demand that people appease your sensibilities isn't all that strong.

Formless wrote:

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Pray tell, how would that interest K-Zone powers in anyway in game?

For starters, the Byzantines get to have their genocide when everyone else wanted a relatively civilized war. The Bragulans get the same, and they get their Inhumanist League, and they get to say "technically, we didn't do the nuking *smug*". Meanwhile the human coalition (especially the Centralists) and even members of your own coalition get the shaft. I'm not trying to be a dick here, I'm just saying. You guys got exactly what you wanted, simply by managing to post it first.

No, they also got it by writing themselves with a more carefully, thoroughly organized war effort that allowed them to seize one MEH system (Xena) at the same time the humans were attacking two others (Wolf 359 and Alpha Centauri)... and then move on to the fourth and final system and get there somewhat ahead of the human fleet, thus allowing them to set the tone of the war in that system.

Shroomy and Darkevilme were writing joint Chamarran-Bragulan exercises in preparation for this operation months ago. Fin was writing posts describing his nation's schemes and plots weeks ago. The fact that you didn't see this coming doesn't mean the evidence wasn't there.

Now yes, there are plenty of nations out there who, if the current "Downfall" post stands, don't get what they want. No possible resolution to the war could give everyone what they want, as you yourself have noticed. This resolution, while not giving everyone what they want, is at least interesting, and is built up by weeks and months of foreshadowing.

So unless you actually have a better idea, instead of just endless mountains of bitching about the existing idea, I don't see why we shouldn't proceed with the idea we've got. Maybe modify it around the edges, or come up with a creative solution agreed upon by more of the involved parties- but still proceed with the idea we've got.

...and you did not even try to work this out with those players. You just posted out of impatience and betrayed every ally you have. Do keep in mind you are outnumbered, and they now have every reason to start shooting Bragulans and Byzantines alike (both in space and on the ground), should they so choose to do so.

How do you know the underlined passage is true? Sure, you weren't consulted, but then, you had nothing at stake in this to begin with.

If any injured parties feel a burning need to complain, they are welcome to do so. Beowulf has already figured out a way to react to the situation. Darkevilme, Force Lord, and other offended nations who don't get what they want out of this resolution are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves if they want to. Who named you their advocate?

The Bragulans and Chamarrans began exercising and war preparations in December 3400. The Inhumanists agreed to kill the MEH in the BEEEF (in December). The Shinrans only announced the MEH's crimes in, what, March 3401? And moved their forces to their staging grounds in April? May?

By the time the Shinrans announced the MEH's crimes and the ultimatum in March, Bragulan troops and ships were already at Planet Kitty Litter preparing for war.

The plan was decided half a year ago, and we stuck to it. And aside from the Byzantines suddenly switching teams and also flying ahead to Earth while the OMINOUS ENEMA SHITS was busy smashing the Sol Fleet, the plan we made months ago went off spiffily. In comparison to whatever Sol-invasion plan the humans made up on the spot just a couple of days before the battle itself.


*EDIT:

The Brags also met the Byzantines in the BEEEF, in December, to agree to the truce that led to this.

Edit: fuck it. Its not worth the effort to argue with Simon on top of everyone else.

Okay, here I am, another uninvolved player, coming in to ask you to please, please, shut the fuck up. Unlike you, I'm asking, not telling, and not threatening to go grab a pocket moderator, because I'm not a dickhead with delusions of grandeur. Let the players involved work it out between each other, for fuck's sake. Most of them don't mind it, or just want to see how to adapt it to their own ends. Your comment about how Sorchus is pissed IRL is quite telling, really...you're clearly white-knighting for a friend. Perhaps a noble goal, but you're a penis-shaped white knight, which someone defeats the purpose.

In closing, sit down and shut the fuck up. Please. Pretty please. With a cherry on top.

See? I asked nicely. Now go fuck yourself.

Formless wrote: The Eoghans and Atlanteans were there first, you dishonest dipshit. Ed: and the Atlanteans have a promise to keep with the Chamarrans, who want a clean war.

And the Eoghans and Atlanteans are with OMINOUS, aren't they? OMINOUS gets to Sol, they mass their forces, and then OMINOUS and SHITS fight Sol Fleet. Allowing Byzantium to sneak through the resulting entanglement. At least, that's how the sequence of events works.

And there's also a matter of OMINOUS being suspicious of SHITS, because the Centralists broke their promise and brought friends along.

How concerned is OMINOUS about Byzantine behavior? The Byzantines are not OMINOUS, and any of their atrocities can be denounced by inhumanists anyway.

Okay, before I start this post, sorry to Simon for some of those statements about his modding. Reading his post a second time, I realize that they were made as a player rather than as a mod and so do not apply. It really is fucking stressful right now for completely IRL reasons, so I probably should have refrained from replying to him at all.

Shroom wrote:How concerned is OMINOUS about Byzantine behavior? The Byzantines are not OMINOUS, and any of their atrocities can be denounced by inhumanists anyway.

The big problem I have is that the Inhumanists are right there, so they have every reason to do more than simply denounce the atrocity. Simple logic-- not speaking on anyone's behalf, just stating what I think should be obvious. And while they might be fighting the Sol fleet, the Sol fleet and other defenses are also going to be fighting the Byzantines. Yet Downfall seems to indicate the Sol defenses are already done for-- indeed, it seems hard to imagine dropping colonies on a planet while the planet and colonies are shooting back still. (remembering that the majority of the Sol defenses are fixed systems)

The Chamarran reaction will probably roll something like this:

1. We didn't care about what happened to Sasha, we have never cared about what happened to Sasha. If she proved as powerful as was claimed we'd of used the Juggernaught guns to slag the palace. We were never interested as the Centralists or Byzantines were on having her head on a pike or interested as the Refuge and Forgotten were in dissecting Sasha. So we don't have an issue there.

2. The loss of the Sol system is a hiccup for our greedy and covetous desire for satellite states sending us catnip and mouses on one hand cause the system isn't there anymore. On the other hand it actually gives us a pretext to annex Xena to protect it from the powers of DreadSasha. So overral it's a tenous hold on two systems or a solid hold on one, this is argueably the kitties getting out ahead.

3. The EOT is not going to expand significantly enough to threaten our new territories any time in the next few centuries so we don't have to worry about that so much.

4. The Chamarran fleet is not going to try and rush the Bragulan fleet to try and get at the Byzantines and stop the genocide initially due to A. the fact it's a big fucking decision to risk an out and out shooting war with your allies and B. the fact they have MEHmen to fry for the first part of the battle. I'm debating they make a run after some procastrination and demolition of MEHmen and basically try and call the bears bluff, but before they reach the Byzantines Earth-4 starts transforming into the EOT so they decide to run the fuck away from the angry godpowers.

5. After everyone is done nyahing and running away we will get to sending angry diplomatic messages to the Byzantines, for being colossal spacedicks on our watch, and the Bragulans, for threatening to shoot their allies in order to secure the objectives of their other allies mortal enemy.

While I do think it's plausible (at least from chamarran reaction perspectives) that Downfall remains canon the diplomatic fallout from this incident for the participants is gonna be heavy.

@ Formless:

The stationary defenses of Sol are divided between its planets. I imagine that the static defenses orbiting Earth itself would be no match for the mass of the Byzantine fleet. Especially if the rest of the Sol fleet (navy warships and system defense craft) is busy getting killed by the OMINOUS.

Sounds fair. Will wait for others to put forth their reactions and such.

Formless wrote:

Simon_Jester wrote:Formless, what this boils down to is that you dislike the way the game is played by others. Now, yes Fin has a bad attitude about this, but other people whose attitudes are far less bad are basically all right with what he is doing.

No, it has to do with OOC concerns you illiterate idiot. These guys are not playing the game, they are bullying people OOC...

Bullying? Who's complaining about being bullied?

Beowulf seems willing enough to take events as they come. Nothing I've heard out of Force Lord, KlavoHunter, or most of the other major participants in the war makes me think they feel as if they're being bullied- as distinct from getting less than their wildest desires out of the war, which they all expected because there are too many groups with mutually exclusive goals involved.

You could speak for Sorchus better than I, perhaps. But if he has a serious complaint about this he's welcome to air it. He can talk to me, or to Shroom, or to Fin, or to anyone else, about how this played out.

and if they want to do that the way they are doing that they can deal with the real moderators of this board. If you have a problem with that, you can kiss my ass. And if you have a problem with my tone, you can talk to Mike about how he runs his board.

Mike runs his board how he pleases, and promotes blunt honesty. I used this blunt honesty to tell you that you were being silly. Very simple.

Or at least talk to Fin about how he's being a dipshit at every turn, so as to not look like a hypocrite. At this rate, the fact that you cannot see what this is about is making me seriously wonder how you ever got made a GM.

In all seriousness, Fin has taken a bad attitude toward the game before, usually when someone proposed that he not get his way. He shows a worrying desire to establish his nation as superior to others in a way not in keeping with the spirit of the game as it's been practiced so far, too. I'm not happy with those things, and I've said as much before. Fin and I are not exactly on the best of terms.

But despite that, I cannot for the life of me recall any time when he's made such a silly display in OOC as you were making just now.

Formless, I cannot for the life of me understand how anything anyone else has done stops you from posting anything.

So you're fine with people telling others to STFU for the sole reason of being a newbie in a game where the basic rule is "don't be a dick". Gotcha.

Am I fine with their tone? Not especially, but I'm kind of indifferent to their tone. What I don't understand is how you were stopped from posting anything.

People criticized you for objecting to their behavior. Their grounds for doing so were perhaps insufficient. But if you didn't want to make an issue out of it, I don't see how it could have become a serious issue without your consent.

No, they also got it by writing themselves with a more carefully, thoroughly organized war effort that allowed them to seize one MEH system (Xena) at the same time the humans were attacking two others (Wolf 359 and Alpha Centauri)... and then move on to the fourth and final system and get there somewhat ahead of the human fleet, thus allowing them to set the tone of the war in that system.

The Eoghans and Atlanteans were there first, you dishonest dipshit. Ed: and the Atlanteans have a promise to keep with the Chamarrans, who want a clean war.

The Eoghans and Atlanteans are part of the same coalition as OMINOUS in general, and so my remark that the OMINOUS war effort was better organized and better prepared to launch its attack on the MEH stands.

Thus, it makes perfect sense that OMINOUS would get to Sol before the humans, and in addition to this it makes perfect sense that the (roughly equal) OMINOUS and human coalitions would each attack and secure two of the four major MEH systems.

If the Eoghans and Atlanteans wish to object to Siege, Fin, and Shroom's proposed resolution of the invasion of Sol, they can do it themselves. You do not need to act as a self-appointed advocate for them.

Who named you their advocate?

No one needs to name me advocate for me to point out obvious dick moves. Idiot.

Thing is, it's not an obvious dick move unless it stands, and actually stops people from posting what they want, without giving them a satisfactory resolution.

Good players can be satisfied with a way to resolve a situation that doesn't give them what they want.

Now, at the moment, there has not been a lot of response to the big Downfall post. OOC, some people have complaints which they are welcome to try to work out. Others like this change (Shroomy and Fin, obviously) or are quite content to tolerate it (Force Lord, or me).

At the moment, discussion is still underway. Siege and the others have not made any attempt to demand that the actions they write stand in all particulars, or to deny anyone else the opportunity to have a say... but yes, they went ahead and said something when they were done figuring out how to say it.

It can still be retconned, if anyone has a better idea. Do you have a better idea? One that gives people whose interests you claim to promote more of what they want, without denying Fin and Shroomy a part of what they want and have put real effort into bringing about?

Are you actually trying to settle this? If so, I'd like to hear you suggestions.

Simon, another way to be a nuisance in an SDNW4 thread is to reply to a post someone redacted. I'm not responding to you unless the modhat is on, because right now its looking less and less and less productive every moment and I'm quite likely to have to bow out of the thread anyway before the day is over due to the IRL bullshit that's been going on around here (I'm a bit amazed I've had the time to keep this up as it is). So please just let it go. I already have.

*sigh*

Well, I was about to post an hour ago... and I promptly had a power outage (A fairly-sized one too, on the way to the library - where I am now - I saw at least two intersections without traffic lights, one of which had a wreck). Now I see that the drama has played itself out.

Formless, I'm the mod-with-power on the scene (I transferred my story-mod status to Simon, but I'm still a subforum mod), if you have any issues in the future please bring them to me in PMs instead of engaging in a flame-slinging contest with everyone. That was not necessary.

I'll be back on sometime tonight, as soon as the damn power comes back on (library closes in 30 minutes and I want to actually look at books, not post on a crappy PC. ).

Thank you, Steve. I'd hoped we could wrap this up without troubling you.

I shall say only this one thing more, then.

[modhat firmly on]

Formless, I want to caution you against this sort of thing. It turns people against you. It's not a good habit, and it does not serve the interests of the game or your own desire to participate in it.

Writing post after post of attempts to vindicate your own rather narrow initial argument, and condemning the people who disagree with you for being mean, illiterate, incompetent, stupid, or otherwise bad and nasty... it's unbecoming. Even if it is strictly true, which I will not say any more on during this modhat-on session, it is still unbecoming. It turns minor quarrels into major quarrels, and major quarrels into game-derailing foolishness.

So try not to do it in this game, all right?

There.

[removes modhat]

ALSO:

[modhat off]

Wow. The Sixth has gotten very lost indeed.

Some human coalition ship:

"Aren't you supposed to be fictional characters?"