[Cabwi Desco] One Nation, Under Your Belief System

[Alyrium Denryle]

Because I dont resond to petty insults I think I'll respond to Durandal instead.

You dont have to respond to the insults, respond to the points provided. Would you like me to sumarize them for you?

[Cabwi Desco]

Without the insults yes.

[Shroom Man 777]

Christ. That's the point of Stardestroyer.net, there's an arguement, the arguers spew out arguements and refutations while at the same time calling each other fucktards and shitcocks. It's SOP.

Besides, just because he's a "poo-poo head who makes little kiddies cry!" doesn't make his arguements any less valid.

[Stofsk]

Without the insults yes.

What's wrong with the insults?

[Plekhanov]

Without the insults yes.

Why can't you just read around the insults and repsond to the substance of Alyrium's post, is it really that really too difficult for you?

It's hardly as if insults are unheard of around here, you must have noticed that before you signed up to the board.

[General Zod]

Without the insults yes.

Why can't you just read around the insults and repsond to the substance of Alyrium's post, is it really that really too difficult for you?

It's hardly as if insults are unheard of around here, you must have noticed that before you signed up to the board.

dismissing someone's post as irrelevant because it happens to have insults in it seems to be a common tactic among trolls on here.

[Rye]

So wait, why change the pledge any more?

How is having "Under God" showing religious favoritism? How does it show the country promoting religion?

You don't think invoking religious entities in a hierarchy of power when it comes to an entire nation is showing religious favouritism? Your following post of it potentially being nonreligious is dishonest as fuck and you should know better.

One nation...indivisible, with peace and justice for theists.

Now I'm not saying it wouldn't be easier to strike them from the pledge, my whole point was that if youre going to say the current pledge of allegiance, wherever you may be, then say it right, not use some PC bullshit.

I disagree. If it said "peace and justice for all, under white supremacy," I would say whoever said it is putting tradition and/or mindless nationalism in front of the principles of equality that you're supposed to be pledging yourself to. Likewise with magical men that live in the sky that not everyone believes in.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Yep.

Lemme guess, you think that 'Under God' and 'In God We Trust' should be removed?

Well in that case have fun recalling trillions upon trillions of pieces of currency just to get rid of four words. And about half as many posters and papers and commercial tapes and newspapers and jamming intercomms just to get rid of two words.

That has been done already. It used to say "E Pluribus Unum".

Correction: It still does say "E Pluribus Unum" on the currency. The motto "In God We Trust" was inserted by acts of Congress during the Civil War in reaction to growing religious sentiment of the time.

And yes, the Pledge was modified by act of Congress in 1954. This time, to as a reaction to the Red Scare and the desire of Congress to prove that, damnit, we're not godless commie pinkos!

As for this guy:

Yep.

Lemme guess, you think that 'Under God' and 'In God We Trust' should be removed?

Well in that case have fun recalling trillions upon trillions of pieces of currency just to get rid of four words. And about half as many posters and papers and commercial tapes and newspapers and jamming intercomms just to get rid of two words.

I suggest he do some reading before bellyaching about what a traumatic experience removing "In God We Trust" from our currency would be. In fact, the US Treasury department has an educational fact sheet on the matter.

On it, it describes the history of the motto, and the fact that:

The use of IN GOD WE TRUST has not been uninterrupted. The motto disappeared from the five-cent coin in 1883, and did not reappear until production of the Jefferson nickel began in 1938. Since 1938, all United States coins bear the inscription. Later, the motto was found missing from the new design of the double-eagle gold coin and the eagle gold coin shortly after they appeared in 1907. In response to a general demand, Congress ordered it restored, and the Act of May 18, 1908, made it mandatory on all coins upon which it had previously appeared. IN GOD WE TRUST was not mandatory on the one-cent coin and five-cent coin. It could be placed on them by the Secretary or the Mint Director with the Secretary's approval.

Clearly, the United States didn't come to a crashing halt, nor did we become communists, nor did the Antichrist begin his reign over the world. And besides, I don't even have to do much to tell you how much bullshit Cabwi's argument is, given that I still get old-style twenty dollar bills with my different new-style ones. When they change currency, they just gradually remove the old stuff from circulation when it wears out.

Seriously. Anyone who doesn't realize that when you see "God" on American currency, or in the American pledge, that the original intent of those who put it there was to promote a very specific God frankly has a few screws loose.

[Darth Wong]

Without the insults yes.

You are not allowed to ignore points here because you think they were not presented in a sufficiently respectful fashion, asshole.

[Durandal]

Because I dont resond to petty insults I think I'll respond to Durandal instead.

Yeah I do know the context. After WWI people were flocking back to religion and the government had passed laws against evolution etc. etc.

Spacebeard adequately addressed your ignorance on the matter, so I'll let his post stand.

Now I'm not saying it wouldn't be easier to strike them from the pledge, my whole point was that if youre going to say the current pledge of allegiance, wherever you may be, then say it right, not use some PC bullshit.

Ah, and the Christian Right once again breaks out the "politically correct" buzzword to try and automatically dismiss an argument. Granted, "under your belief system" isn't really any better. It makes no sense. Whose belief system? What is it with this obsession in America that we have to have our government jerk itself off to religion at every opportunity?

Tell me, can you provide a good argument for why striking "under God" from the Pledge would be a bad thing? And no, "Duuuuh ... because it's politically correct and PC is teh suck!!!!" doesn't count as a good argument.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Tell me, can you provide a good argument for why striking "under God" from the Pledge would be a bad thing? And no, "Duuuuh ... because it's politically correct and PC is teh suck!!!!" doesn't count as a good argument.

I would like to wager a dollar that no one will be able to come up with an adequate argument by your standard.

[Nephtys]

One other thing you ought to remember. 'God' in this use, is a formal name. It's not just the name for any diety, but it happens to be used as the name. It's not 'Under Allah', 'Under Deus', et cetera. Which makes kids feel left out. Even back when I was in elementary school, I was poked at for being the only atheist in a small town in upstate New York.

People who support the phraise are simply ignorant of how other people feel about such an issue, or dismiss the charges against it. since it's just a few words. In God We Trust. Under God. They can only get away with that due to national majority, and the instant you strike either one, they rise angrilly at how 'they are being persecuted'.

Quite honestly, the real issue is the insensitivity of the majority. Just look at the Ten Commandments garbage that was all over the news last year. Blatant Judeo-christian icons defended, with the rationalization that 'they founded our system of law'.

This is no different, really. The pledge... looking back, is a subtle loyalty pledge that you remember. I mean. I'm 23, and I still remember every word, even though I stopped saying it around the ninth grade. *shakes her head*. Being proud of the country is one thing, but associating the country with one religion is another.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Without the insults yes.

Here you go. Nice and combustion reaction free.

Who honestly cares if its two words that somehow have a religous connotation are said in a pledge

do bercause I face ostracism when I dont say them.

to a (for the most part) christian nation

CHeck the treaty of tripoli. It specifically states that we are not a christians nation and our CONSTITUTION specifies the same. The demographics dont matter when it comes to religious freedom, only the constitution does. The population may be christian(77%) but the government is not and it has no business pushing religion on the 14% who dont subscribe to it in its public pronouncements.

founded by a couple of stuck up christians! Christians (for the most part)

The head honchos(Madison, Jefferson and debatably Washington) were deists, and the first two wrote out founding documents.

founded this country goddamnit and they have just as much of a right to say what they believe in it as anyone else.

That they do, but whet they dont have the right to do is force everyone else to worthip their God, or use the government to prop up said God. The government is secular for a reason and that is so theocratic little fucks dont take power. A christian can say under God, a muslim can say "under ALLAAAAAH!!!" but the government has no place saying either. When I was in high school it was little humans like you that made me uncomfortable reciting the pledge and showing my loyalty to my country. It was little humans like you that put extra emphasis on "Under God" just to make me uncomfortable. SO sit down, shut up, and get ANd get it through your skull that religious freedom doesnt mean "religious freedom but only if you are a christian"

[Alyrium Denryle]

There, now stop being a cowardly little troll and respond to the points offered.

[Stark]

He hasn't replied to anyone elses' points - what makes you so special?

[Castor Troy]

Yeah, you guys are right. What the fuck was I thinking?

[Lord Zentei]

Correction: It still does say "E Pluribus Unum" on the currency. The motto "In God We Trust" was inserted by acts of Congress during the Civil War in reaction to growing religious sentiment of the time.

I was unaware that it was during the Civil War, thanks for the heads up (I know it still says "E Pluribus Unum", but I thought the banner that currently reads "In God We Trust" also read "E Pluribus Unum" previously).

Whatever, the points still stands that the currency has been changed previously.

Without the insults yes.

Insults are not frowned upon around here as long as there is substance to go along with them. They make for more interesting and entertaining debates, so grow some thicker skin if you want to survive around here. Also take a gander at the top of the index page: "...and mockery of stupid people" as well as "We have 2XXX flamewarriors registered". Of course if you spew nothing but insults, that is bad too.

Think of the insults as icing on the cake (the cake being the rational arguments). The cake becomes more appealing to the locals with icing, but icing alone is bad for your health.

[Lord Zentei]

Yeah, you guys are right. What the fuck was I thinking?

Nothing much apparently.

[Castor Troy]

Touche.

Seriously, though, from now on I'll try to show less...zeal, I suppose, and think more logically.

[Alyrium Denryle]

He hasn't replied to anyone elses' points - what makes you so special?

Because I am better than the rest of you.. oh wait I didnt say that out loud

[Slartibartfast]

ITS TWO FUCKING WORDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"DIE NIGGERS!" is also two fucking words.

[Darth Wong]

The "it's no big deal" argument from the Right really pisses me off. If it's not a big deal, then why are they so pissed off about the idea of changing it?

[Castor Troy]

Maintaining tradition. *shrugs*

[The Spartan]

Maintaining tradition. *shrugs*

What tradition? If wanted to be traditional about the pledge then shouldn't we use the original, i.e. the tradtional version? The one that doesn't include, "under god."

[Darth Wong]

Maintaining tradition. *shrugs*

Maintaining a tradition that was altered in 1954? If you really want to maintain tradition, you should go back to the ORIGINAL pledge.