The political systems in SF worlds

[Rathark]

Politics doesn't normally interest me this much, but I wonder where the governments of SF series would be placed on this quiz graph:

http://www.lp.org/quiz/

We know that Dinotopia and UFP would be somewhere on the left side of authoritarianism (ie socialism), and the Galactic Empire would be on the right of authoritarianism (fascism). While Robert Heinlein was obviously a conservative libertarian, the movie adaptation of "Starship Troopers" (and even the book itself) seems to lean a lot more towards fascism.

Are there any political experts out there who would like to elaborate on this, or on other SF worlds?

Just for the record, I still score somewhere in the Left-Liberal corner, although I've moved a bit closer to the centre since you-know-what happened. I believe it's far more accurate and ethical to pigeon-hole governments in this manner than individuals, anyway.

[Pablo Sanchez]

While Robert Heinlein was obviously a conservative libertarian, the movie adaptation of "Starship Troopers" (and even the book itself) seems to lean a lot more towards fascism.

That government system he came up with was a POS, and just as optimistically doomed as Communism. It would have turned into a complete totalitarian Fascist state within a couple generations.

[Darth Wong]

That government system he came up with was a POS, and just as optimistically doomed as Communism. It would have turned into a complete totalitarian Fascist state within a couple generations.

What do you expect for a book written in a couple of weeks as a knee-jerk political statement? The most amazing thing about Starship Troopers is the way people worship the book despite its glaring flaws. It also started the whole "battlemech" craze; an idea of rather questionable validity.

I think a lot of sci-fi societies (at least, on TV and movies) suffer from Starship Troopers' general mentality. Societies are viewed largely in terms of their military capabilities and/or achievements, and their citizens are valued only for their ability to contribute in a military fashion. They may spout dialogue hinting at a more well-rounded value system, but when push comes to shove, militaristic fascism tends to be the order of the day. To "serve" your country is to pick up a gun and fight for it; there's apparently no other way to "serve" society (mind you, this is exactly the way many Americans feel today). And you should "ask not what your country can do you for; ask what you can do for your country" (why not ask both, instead of moronically giving without receiving?)

One other theme I've noticed is social regression. On Star Trek and B5, most alien societies seem to be severely regressive in some area, eg- with tribal councils rather than formal governments, religious theocracies rather than secularism, or strict caste structures.

[Mr Bean]

Yes and did Star-ship Troopers also have that Roman idea of if you join the Servie you gain citizenship?

[Patrick Ogaard]

Yes and did Star-ship Troopers also have that Roman idea of if you join the Servie you gain citizenship?

Yes, it did, and, no, the Romans didn't. Specifically, there was no way in Starship Troopers for someone to be born a full citizen with voting rights, whereas Roman citizens could be either born or made.

A full term of service in the military was the prerequisite for voting citizenship in the Starship Troopers universe. The same applied to the right to hold political office or get a civil service job. Every police officer was therefore a military veteran.

All things considered, it was definitely an unworkable system, since it ensured the existence of a huge, wealthy, disenfranchised population. The protagonist's family was seriously rich, scandalized by their son's decision to join the military, and completely disenfranchised politically.

Also, at one point in the book the protagonist runs afoul of some merchant marines while on shore leave, the argument starting because the merchant marines, who risked their lives on the merchant starships necessary to sustain the war effort, were not given citizenship rights on completion of their terms of service. The police officer who arrives at the scene sends the protagonist and his buddy on their way with a wink after the two mobile infantrymen wrap the merchant marines around lamp posts, etc.

[septesix]

for a more "Normal" government, you can look to "The Night's Dawn" Trilogy, or the "Hyperion" series. Both book actaulyl dechiper a very believable government that are quite close to our own , with allowance for future advancement. (Ie , there are citizen dedicated to politics inside the Hegemony from Hyperion)

[Nicholas Stipanovich]

I think a lot of sci-fi societies (at least, on TV and movies) suffer from Starship Troopers' general mentality. Societies are viewed largely in terms of their military capabilities and/or achievements, and their citizens are valued only for their ability to contribute in a military fashion. They may spout dialogue hinting at a more well-rounded value system, but when push comes to shove, militaristic fascism tends to be the order of the day. To "serve" your country is to pick up a gun and fight for it; there's apparently no other way to "serve" society (mind you, this is exactly the way many Americans feel today). And you should "ask not what your country can do you for; ask what you can do for your country" (why not ask both, instead of moronically giving without receiving?)

One other theme I've noticed is social regression. On Star Trek and B5, most alien societies seem to be severely regressive in some area, eg- with tribal councils rather than formal governments, religious theocracies rather than secularism, or strict caste structures.

Two points. First, military strength is very important for a society in a global system (competitive and ultimately anarchic) such as our own. I wouldn't knock it too much.

Second, I think that the reason so many sci-fi shows postulate social regression is because it is far easier to copy a workable historical model than come up with something completely new. As you said, Heinlein's futuristic state possessed several glaring consistency flaws. In my experience, this is very common among sci-fi authors who try to be particularly novel in their society-related visions. Since the historical models actually existed, that says a lot for their workability and consistency.

[SirNitram]

I've got a few ideas, ripped off from some places, and inspired by reality in other places.

Corporate Republic. Instead of fifty states, fifty corporations run the nation. Considering Enron, this can't be good for the everyman.

'Virtual' Democracy. Using mass-fabrication technology to feed and clothe the masses, and massive computer networks to connect everyone, democracy finally becomes a reality when the millions can all vote at once. Suffers from natural human stupidity.

There are more, though they largely follow existing models. A theocracy which worships computers and their programmers instead of gods and their priests, a facist state run by mind control....

[Sea Skimmer]

That government system he came up with was a POS, and just as optimistically doomed as Communism. It would have turned into a complete totalitarian Fascist state within a couple generations.

What do you expect for a book written in a couple of weeks as a knee-jerk political statement? The most amazing thing about Starship Troopers is the way people worship the book despite its glaring flaws. It also started the whole "battlemech" craze; an idea of rather questionable validity.

The weapons and technology, which make it questionable, were at best a few scribbles on paper when the book was written though. At the time the Nike Ajax missile was state of the art air defence… MANPADS sams did not exist and anti tank missiles were hard pressed to hit Barn at 100 yards.


The goverment system though was certainly unworkable

[RedImperator]

I'm a polisci major who writes original sci-fi, and so I try to put some effort into coming up with realistic political systems. The problem is, as Nicholas said, is that's it's difficult to come up with a workable political sytem completely from scratch. Even my most elaborately fleshed out ones are just variations on representative democracy (which doesn't bother me too much because I think free-market representative democracy is the best humans are going to get).

[Patrick Degan]

From everything I've observed, it seems that many SF writers really do not think through the political organisation of the societies they create in their epics. The original Star Trek based its Federation somewhat on the UN: a collection of soverign worlds each with their own government but sharing a common military structure and a common interplanetary council/senate to address issues of galactic scale. Ever since then, however, the Trek writers have devolved upon the idea of the FC as the Senate of the UFP, headed by a President, and each world's government is merely a local adjunct of the overall Federation government, which means billions of individuals are effectively ruled by a collection of only 150 or so representatives in a unicameral quasi-legislature —and one in which Starfleet appears to hold one or more seats! There is no hint as to how any of these representatives are qualified for office beyond ambassadorial status and it does not address the plainly fascistic aspect of the military holding more than one seat in the legislature. The problems with the UFP structure of government, however, are nothing compared to the utterly ludicrous Klingon power structure in which the rulership is determined by Trial-by-Ordeal or, every once in a while, a knife-fight! Hell of a way to run a spacefaring empire, in my view.

As much as I like Babylon 5, admittedly one of its greatest weaknesses, plausibility-wise, is in its take on political organisation. Each world has only one small council (e.g. the Minbari) or a unicameral legislature (e.g. EarthGov). EarthGov, at least, is seen in the series as being clearly chosen by popular ballot and seems to comprise a rather large body of senators and has an independent judiciary, which makes it the most clearly outlined governmental body of all the civilisations depicted in Babylon 5., with the Centarum being the runner-up. It's where JMS addressed the alien civilisations that he opted for very simplistic feudal or religious councils in one or more very undemocratic forms which are hardly suited to effectively manage the affairs of spacefaring races, and the structure of the ISA is utterly implausible for many of the same reasons as the Federation Council in Berman-era Trek. The one thing that can be said for Babylon 5 over Star Trek in the area of politics is that more democracy has been exhibited in that series than ever in Star Trek. Beyond that, however, JMS resorted to many of the same cliches in glossing over the messier details of government so as to advance the plot. Particularly in the even more implausible aspect of vital members of these governments who are also main characters in the series risking their own lives in the field on dangerous spy or military missions. And let's not even get into the issue of how many people would really stomach having a government set over them which is headed up by a man appointed to the position by his wife and best friends and who, fifteen years later, changes jobs with his wife when he decides not to run for the presidency again.

Imagine what would have become of the ISA, for example, if G'Kar had been killed on Centauri Prime, Delenn had vanished in hyperspace, and President Sheridan had been shot down over Centauri Prime (even though there is precedent in American history for the president, as commander-in-chief of the armed forces, to actually assume personal command of said forces in the field)

That, I think, is why we get so many of these quasi-royal or quasi-feudal councils ruling alien civilisations where we don't simply see the writer opting for the classical military dictatorship. That and the fact that it takes a minimum number of actors to depict the governments in such cases.

Probably the most believable government depicted in mass-SF was in The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy, in which the President is nothing more than a ceremonial figurehead whose real function was to distract attention away from the people actually running things —a role in which Zaphod Beeblebrox excelled.

[Peregrin Toker]

Am I the only one to notice that the Romulan Star Empire's society seems to be more or less based upon the later Roman Republic... it doesn't come as a surprise, since their home planet is called Romulus (the founder of Rome), that a Romulan officer was described as a centurion in "Balance of Terror" (or was it "The Enterprise Incident").... and last but not least, the symbol of the Romulan Star Empire is a bird of prey with its wings spread, like that of the Roman Empire. The Romulan Star Empire is also officially a republic, ruled by a senate, but the real power is in the hands of the military. (much like the Roman Republic in its later days - but the same can be said of the USA, where it is nigh-on-impossible to get a law through if the military-industrial complex doesn't approve of it)

The Klingon Empire, which obviously is a feudal society in TNG and onwards, however, was not always so. For example, while female Klingons are forbidden from interefering in the politics of their own Empire in TNG and onwards (at least, according to Gowron), they once had a female High Chancellor (Azetbur).

However, the TOS klingon empire is often described as being a Stalinist or Leninist state... however, where did this come from - aside from the TOS klingons' obviously Slavic appearance (as opposed to the Ian Anderson hairdos of TNG klingons)????

Perhaps from the fact that all Klingon warships have similar designs?? (thus indicating that they might be designed by the same bureau)

[Patrick Ogaard]

The Roman inspiration for the Romulans is made even more obvious when one adds in the sister planet of the Romulan homeworld. The homeworld is called Romulus, the sister world is Remus (home of the Remans). Romulus and Remus. One can't get more Roman than that.