Space Marines and doing the nasty

[Stravo]

A few questions on Space Marines I throw to the far more experienced in the WH40Kverse.

Space Marine procreation - do Space Marines fuck and more importantly do they reproduce? At first I assumed all Space Marines were men and then I started seeing fluff paintings and drawings of female space marines and that got me thinking. With all the surgical/psychological/genetic modifications of Space Marines did they get rid of the sex drive? Are Space Marines attracted to each other or the opposite sex in general? Is it against the rules for them to have romances? (a la Jedi Knights)

If Space Marines do fuck do they have children with each other? I get the sense from some of the fluff I've read that the Space Marines are somehow cloned or artifically grown from these 'gene seeds'. If that's the case why then are some battles considered so catestrophic for the Space Marines chapters? For example the Battle of Macragge fluff claims that it took 200 years for the Ultramarines to replace their losses in that battle. Yet if they were cloned shouldn't it have taken only a few years (if they have accelerated growth tech) or at most 20-30? (no accelerated growth tech)

And do Space Marines keep their numbers artficially low to avoid issues like the ones that plagued them with the Horus Heresy? It seems to me that as good as the Space Marines are why don't you clone their numbers up so that they rival the Imperial Guard?

Do Space Marines have families? Or are they purely artifically created and enhanced beings?

Where do Space Marines fall in the hierarchy of the Imperium in terms of over all power? Do they have something to fear from the Inquisition? Are they somewaht independent but loyal? Are they actually like stormtroopers completely and totally obedient to orders that come from Terra?

Sorry for all the questions but you know how it is when you discover something new you really enjoy. Plus it counts as reserach towards some ideas I was having for a possible story.

[fgalkin]

Space Marines do not reproduce, and all femals Space Marines are a creation of lonely nerds who grew tired of their Sisters of Battle armies. They are not canon.

No mention of Space Marines doing the nasty exists anywhere, to my knowledge, probably because losing the ability to do so is an unfortunate side effect of being taken apart and put together again. To answer your question, normal people before a certain age are taken and given the SM inplants, but only a few of them survive the procedure, which is why it takes a very long time for a chapter to replenish its numbers.

Even if they could have sex, the Space Marines would have no time for families, as they get 1 minutes or so of free time per day, and the rest is reserved for sleep, prayer, and training.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[18-Till-I-Die]

Space Marines are, at their core, basically warrior monks. They're a cult brotherhood, with, IIRC, strict rules about their every waking hour when not on Crusade.

So as far as i know, they can have sex but are not allowed to, as practically every wakeing hour is spent on Crusade, training, or praying.

More so, i'm rather positive i read somewhere they're rendered sterile, but not unable to have sex. I think some Space Wolves have have sex, but they cant father children as they're infertile.

[Elheru Aran]

Those 'female Space Marines' are most probably Adeptus Sororitas, the Chamber Militiant of the Ecclesicharchy.

Space Marines are most probably sterile; given that they have (IIRC?) something on the order of twenty genetic modifications, there's not too much left of the boys afterwards.

Cloning isn't possible IIRC due to the specific nature of the geneseed implants.

Marines are definitely high up on the Imperium's pecking order, but they fall about under the Inqusition, which submits to the High Lords of Terra. Each Chapter is essentially an independent nation of its own, which includes the worlds it owns and holds sway upon, such as Macragge for the Ultramarines and Baal for the Blood Angels.

Marines aren't 'artifical' beings per se; they're human males, gathered when young (13 is the minimum IIRC) and grown in the Chapter, geneseed implanted at a young age. There's also significant surgical modification as well, and much training. The Black Carapace, the last implant which allows the Marine to interface with power armour, is installed at about 18-20 years of age.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Actually, if i recall 13 is the maximum. I think. I read that they grab boys as young as ten or eleven or twelve usually, with thirteen being at the far end. They have to be really young to accept the massive genetic and hormonal mods they get.

[Xon]

Space Marines are physically infertile as a direct result of the modifications done to them. In addition, they physiologically incapable. There are females in power armor, but there are not female Space Marines.

They don't have off time. That's why they are hard to write. No hobbies. Pray. Study. Tend to weapons. Fight. Repeat.

[Stravo]

I take it from fgalkin's post that Space Marines are not cloned but created as in taking a normal human and then putting them through the process. Wouldn't it be easier to clone some of the finer examples of space marines? In the game DOW one of the cut scenes makes a big deal about not being able to recover a fallen brother's gene seed which is what made me think about cloning.

And 18 that is a wonderful description that solidifies the image in my head - They're Warrior Monks.

So then female space marines is non cannon then? What about these sisters of battle I've seen referenced to in some fluff - not Space Marines but what are they?

[18-Till-I-Die]

Stravo:

AFAIK they cant clone the gene-seed, the special organs that contain the genetic modifcations root code or some such. With those it takes a living host. So the only way it works is taking live subjects.

In fact they tried to clone Space Marines (actually trie dto close primarchs) once and it ended disatrously. Those Chapters created were mutants, like the Lamenters who have supernaturally bad luck or the Black Dragons who have horrible bone mutations, and those are the ones who were able to survive, most devolved into goop, IIRC.

It was in a story, the Cursed Founding.

[Elheru Aran]

So then female space marines is non cannon then? What about these sisters of battle I've seen referenced to in some fluff - not Space Marines but what are they?

Sisters of Battle, as I mentioned, are the Chamber Militiant of the Ecclesicharchy-- they're warrior nuns, basically. The Ecclesicharchy set up the Sororitas due to the Vandire Heresy in the late M30's, when Goge Vandire became High Lord of the Ecclesicharchy on Terra and caused a lot of shit. Sebastian Thor led a counter-revolt and after conquering Vandire, declared that the Ecclesicharchy should have no men at arms... successors took advantage of that loophole.

And Marines aren't monks per se; they don't adhere to the Cultus Imperialis, the worship of the Emperor as God. They instead venerate the Emperor as an example of the perfect human.

The geneseed comment in DoW derives from how the Marines feel about their own lineage-- each Marine has a wee bit of their Primarch in themselves, and by extension, an tiny bit of the Emperor. Of course, all this makes the geneseed very sanctified and holy; and each Marine ship has an enormous, heavily defended central vault holding the geneseed of its Chapter.

[18-Till-I-Die]

And 18 that is a wonderful description that solidifies the image in my head - They're Warrior Monks.

So then female space marines is non cannon then? What about these sisters of battle I've seen referenced to in some fluff - not Space Marines but what are they?

Warrior monks is how i always saw them, since they're described as individual religious brotherhoods, with monestary bases and such.

The Sisters are the elite soldiers of the Imperial Cult, taken from orphans and trained from birth. They do most of the fighting for the Imperial Cult. They're normal humans but extremely well trained and equipped, and they began long ago during the reign of blood, a period where this insane Pope-figure took over the Imperium and almost caused the destruction of the Imperium before a messiah-like dude named Sabastian Thor (who may have been a Sensei, or it seems to have been implied) took him down and he was assassinated (the Pope-guy) by the Custodes.

[fgalkin]

I take it from fgalkin's post that Space Marines are not cloned but created as in taking a normal human and then putting them through the process. Wouldn't it be easier to clone some of the finer examples of space marines? In the game DOW one of the cut scenes makes a big deal about not being able to recover a fallen brother's gene seed which is what made me think about cloning.

And 18 that is a wonderful description that solidifies the image in my head - They're Warrior Monks.

So then female space marines is non cannon then? What about these sisters of battle I've seen referenced to in some fluff - not Space Marines but what are they?

They can't clone the geneseed. In fact, if a Space Marine falls in battle, they must retrieve his body, or at least the geneseed organ for the chapter to be able to replace him.

Sisters of Battle are an army of the Ecclesiarchy, who are forbidden to have "men under arms" after the Age of Apostasy. They also work with the Ordo Hereticus. They get to use power armor and other high-tech goodies, but they get none of the implants.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Elheru Aran]

And 18 that is a wonderful description that solidifies the image in my head - They're Warrior Monks.

So then female space marines is non cannon then? What about these sisters of battle I've seen referenced to in some fluff - not Space Marines but what are they?

Warrior monks is how i always saw them, since they're described as individual religious brotherhoods, with monestary bases and such.

The Sisters are the elite soldiers of the Imperial Cult, taken from orphans and trained from birth. They do most of the fighting for the Imperial Cult. They're normal humans but extremely well trained and equipped, and they began long ago during the reign of blood, a period where this insane Pope-figure took over the Imperium and almost caused the destruction of the Imperium before a messiah-like dude named Sabastian Thor (who may have been a Sensei, or it seems to have been implied) took him down and he was assassinated (the Pope-guy) by the Custodes.

Slightly incorrect. Goge Vandire was assassinated by his own female guards when they heard of the Thorian counter-revolution. Since then, the Ecclesicharchy has been under strict supervision by the Inquisition to prevent any such atrocities from occurring again, hence the 'Thorian' denomination mentioned by Eisenhorn and the like.

Additionally: Sororitas do not have geneseed implants, but they do use power armour; it's simply of a different, later make than the Adeptus Astartes', and not as highly specialized.

It's been theorized that the geneseed, for whatever reason, is incompatible with the female physiology; this may be deliberate, it's never been said outright IIRC.

[Azazal]

A few questions on Space Marines I throw to the far more experienced in the WH40Kverse.

Space Marine procreation - do Space Marines fuck and more importantly do they reproduce? At first I assumed all Space Marines were men and then I started seeing fluff paintings and drawings of female space marines and that got me thinking. With all the surgical/psychological/genetic modifications of Space Marines did they get rid of the sex drive? Are Space Marines attracted to each other or the opposite sex in general? Is it against the rules for them to have romances? (a la Jedi Knights)

Nope, the process of becoming a marine leaves the marine sterile

If Space Marines do fuck do they have children with each other? I get the sense from some of the fluff I've read that the Space Marines are somehow cloned or artificially grown from these 'gene seeds'. If that's the case why then are some battles considered so catastrophic for the Space Marines chapters? For example the Battle of Macragge fluff claims that it took 200 years for the Ultramarines to replace their losses in that battle. Yet if they were cloned shouldn't it have taken only a few years (if they have accelerated growth tech) or at most 20-30? (no accelerated growth tech)

Gene seed, quick and dirty explanation. When a marine is created, different artifice organs are implanted into a recruit. 2 of the organs, called Progenoid Glands, collect DNA from those organs, these are what has become known as "gene seed". The Progenoids are then collect back from the marine, and then the gene seed cells are used to create a new set of organs. As such one marine can give rise to two future brothers.

More Here

And do Space Marines keep their numbers artificially low to avoid issues like the ones that plagued them with the Horus Heresy? It seems to me that as good as the Space Marines are why don't you clone their numbers up so that they rival the Imperial Guard?

It depends on the chapter, like the Black Templars have thousands of marines, but they are spread through out the galaxy. Others, like the Flesh Tearers are always at war and are lucky to have a few hundred-battle brothers on hand. Recent discussion on just this subject

Do Space Marines have families? Or are they purely artificially created and enhanced beings?

Only saw a marine with a family once, in the DEATHWING short story, but that was a very special case. But in general, marines forego their family when they join their chapter. As for creation, they are picked form young boys, usually between the ages of 8 and 10, basically pre-puberty

Where do Space Marines fall in the hierarchy of the Imperium in terms of over all power? Do they have something to fear from the Inquisition? Are they somewhat independent but loyal? Are they actually like stormtroopers completely and totally obedient to orders that come from Terra?

They are independent, and answer only to the Emperor really. The big I has made trouble for chapters in the past, but or the most part they leave the marines alone.

Sorry for all the questions but you know how it is when you discover something new you really enjoy. Plus it counts as research towards some ideas I was having for a possible story.

No problem at all, always good to see more in the hobby

[SirNitram]

I take it from fgalkin's post that Space Marines are not cloned but created as in taking a normal human and then putting them through the process. Wouldn't it be easier to clone some of the finer examples of space marines? In the game DOW one of the cut scenes makes a big deal about not being able to recover a fallen brother's gene seed which is what made me think about cloning.

Cloning is evil, sinful, dangerous technology. The last major cloning effort, as I recall, was the 21st Founding.. Otherwise known as the Cursed Founding. Virtually all the Chapters created experienced some horrific mutation, culminating with the Legion of the Damned, who are partially insubstantial.

And 18 that is a wonderful description that solidifies the image in my head - They're Warrior Monks.

So then female space marines is non cannon then? What about these sisters of battle I've seen referenced to in some fluff - not Space Marines but what are they?

Sisters of Battle are the militant members of the Adepta Sororita, derived from a cult of warrior women called the Daughters of the Emperor. They serve the Ordo Hereticus; they find Witches and set them aflame.

They are akin to Space Marines in alot of ways in their army list, but are physically merely highly trained. Their power armour helps.. To a point. But they have supreme powers of Faith, and the God Emperor grants them power.

Also, the Sisters won't go into battle in an army with Space Marines, not even Grey Knights. I'm betting there's a drunken orgy somewhere in the past that resulted in this.

[Gil Hamilton]

From what fluff I've heard of, isn't it physically impossible for women to receive the geneseed? I understand it doesn't work on them, only on men, because either of technology deficiency (they don't know how to make it work, they've lost that technology) or just biology (women just can't be modified that way).

[Lord Revan]

The geneseed comment in DoW derives from how the Marines feel about their own lineage-- each Marine has a wee bit of their Primarch in themselves, and by extension, an tiny bit of the Emperor. Of course, all this makes the geneseed very sanctified and holy; and each Marine ship has an enormous, heavily defended central vault holding the geneseed of its Chapter.

also IIRC the geneseed repesent the future of the chapter as it's the only way new marines can be made.

[Elheru Aran]

I take it from fgalkin's post that Space Marines are not cloned but created as in taking a normal human and then putting them through the process. Wouldn't it be easier to clone some of the finer examples of space marines? In the game DOW one of the cut scenes makes a big deal about not being able to recover a fallen brother's gene seed which is what made me think about cloning.

Cloning is evil, sinful, dangerous technology. The last major cloning effort, as I recall, was the 21st Founding.. Otherwise known as the Cursed Founding. Virtually all the Chapters created experienced some horrific mutation, culminating with the Legion of the Damned, who are partially insubstantial.

What about the Adeptus Custodes, though? Or do they get exemption by the virtue of being the Emperor's own bodyguard?

[Elheru Aran]

From what fluff I've heard of, isn't it physically impossible for women to receive the geneseed? I understand it doesn't work on them, only on men, because either of technology deficiency (they don't know how to make it work, they've lost that technology) or just biology (women just can't be modified that way).

Never been said outright. But most ascribe it to the biology; however, I imagine if they had the tech they could do it. Not much point though, given that men have greater strength and endurance, which would be ideal for the Imperium's super-soldiers.

[SirNitram]

From what fluff I've heard of, isn't it physically impossible for women to receive the geneseed? I understand it doesn't work on them, only on men, because either of technology deficiency (they don't know how to make it work, they've lost that technology) or just biology (women just can't be modified that way).

I don't beleive I've seen anything so concrete. It's just that no chapter has females in the actual Astartes ranks. In theory, if one of the 'Lost Primarchs' was female, that Legion and it's Chapters could have women. But that's a theory and naught more.

[SirNitram]

I take it from fgalkin's post that Space Marines are not cloned but created as in taking a normal human and then putting them through the process. Wouldn't it be easier to clone some of the finer examples of space marines? In the game DOW one of the cut scenes makes a big deal about not being able to recover a fallen brother's gene seed which is what made me think about cloning.

Cloning is evil, sinful, dangerous technology. The last major cloning effort, as I recall, was the 21st Founding.. Otherwise known as the Cursed Founding. Virtually all the Chapters created experienced some horrific mutation, culminating with the Legion of the Damned, who are partially insubstantial.

What about the Adeptus Custodes, though? Or do they get exemption by the virtue of being the Emperor's own bodyguard?

The Emperor had better tech to work with. Nowadays, we have the Mechanicus.

[Lord Revan]

From what fluff I've heard of, isn't it physically impossible for women to receive the geneseed? I understand it doesn't work on them, only on men, because either of technology deficiency (they don't know how to make it work, they've lost that technology) or just biology (women just can't be modified that way).

IIRC the imperium doesn't have the means to make completely new geneseed (without any old seed to work with), so making geneseed that could accept women is impossible even if it was biologically possible,

[Azazal]

From what fluff I've heard of, isn't it physically impossible for women to receive the geneseed? I understand it doesn't work on them, only on men, because either of technology deficiency (they don't know how to make it work, they've lost that technology) or just biology (women just can't be modified that way).

I don't beleive I've seen anything so concrete. It's just that no chapter has females in the actual Astartes ranks. In theory, if one of the 'Lost Primarchs' was female, that Legion and it's Chapters could have women. But that's a theory and naught more.

I'll have to dig it up, but back in late 1st ed, early 2nd ed, there is a line that says that the implants are tailored for the male human body and hormones, they would not grow or function in a female body.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

A few questions on Space Marines I throw to the far more experienced in the WH40Kverse.

Space Marine procreation - do Space Marines fuck and more importantly do they reproduce? At first I assumed all Space Marines were men and then I started seeing fluff paintings and drawings of female space marines and that got me thinking. With all the surgical/psychological/genetic modifications of Space Marines did they get rid of the sex drive? Are Space Marines attracted to each other or the opposite sex in general? Is it against the rules for them to have romances? (a la Jedi Knights)

Some Chapters may or may not fool around. It is loosely implied they are all impotent, and certainly sterile, but that's the sort of thing that's up to the player/reader, ultimately.

Female Marines are entirely fan creations with no basis in canon. Not only are the geneseed implants heavily dependent on male hormones, but the training and transformation process would have an even higher mortality rate with females than males, to the point of infeasibility (even if it did work, which it doesn't).

If Space Marines do fuck do they have children with each other? I get the sense from some of the fluff I've read that the Space Marines are somehow cloned or artifically grown from these 'gene seeds'. If that's the case why then are some battles considered so catestrophic for the Space Marines chapters? For example the Battle of Macragge fluff claims that it took 200 years for the Ultramarines to replace their losses in that battle. Yet if they were cloned shouldn't it have taken only a few years (if they have accelerated growth tech) or at most 20-30? (no accelerated growth tech)

See above. Marines are sterile and have no females anyways.

Geneseed is incredibly valuable. During the transformation process, two un-beneficiary organs (progenoid glands) are implanted in the young Marine, one in the chest and one in the throat. These organs mature over time and contain new geneseed material that is then used to create a new Space Marine. One organ can be removed safely a few decades after implantation; the other is (ideally) removed post-mortem. As the cause of death of a Marine is always some variation of 'violent explosion,' the apothecary(ies) present on the battlefield can't always get to the fallen in time. In a particularly devastating battle, the Marines could suffer 100% casualties and thus retrieve no geneseed at all, which is very devastating. To replace those losses they then have to crack open the vault of geneseed extracted from the first progenoid gland - think the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, only for Marines.

And do Space Marines keep their numbers artficially low to avoid issues like the ones that plagued them with the Horus Heresy? It seems to me that as good as the Space Marines are why don't you clone their numbers up so that they rival the Imperial Guard?

Partially. Most Chapters adhere to the Codex Astartes, which proscribes a 1000-Marine limit per Chapter. This isn't strictly enforced as exact numbers can very easily fluctuate between 900 to 1100 perfectly naturally. Some non-Codex Chapters like the Black Templar are rumored to have in excess of 3000 Marines.

But losses are inevitable and sometimes extreme, and new recruits are difficult to induct. The best, brightest, strongest, toughest, and most willful young boys (6-12 years old, generally) are recruited from whatever the Chapter's recruiting grounds might be (a planet, a system, several systems, sometimes more), probably attaining a dozen at most with each batch. They are then screened by the Apothecaries, Chaplains, and Librarians for physical purity (genetically and physiogically), spiritual purity, and mental purity/psychic talent, respectively. Success rate here varies, but a 50% dropout rate at this point would not be uncommon. Unsuitables are either killed indirectly (trauma), directly (summary execution), or exiled.

Then they are shipped off to the Fortress-Monastery or alternative HQ and training begins. It's a grueling affair and in the first few years a few more recruits will probably die from exposure. The geneseed implantation will also start, and some recruits' immune systems may reject the implants. Needless to stay, that makes them useless to the Marines and these unsuitables are typically made into Chapter serfs, who attend many day-to-day affairs too menial to warrant a Marine's attention.

As a neophyte hits his late teens most of the training and implantation will be done, save for the final Black Carapace allowing him to wear power armor. A few more have probably died by this point or otherwise rejected. The results of this are the Scouts, and are now Marines, for the most part. As they await their Black Carapace, they form the reconaissance and covert ops elements of a Chapter in battle, and this is their "trial by fire." Obviously many die in this role.

All told, a Chapter is lucky to get two or three full-blown Marines out of any given batch.

Do Space Marines have families? Or are they purely artifically created and enhanced beings?

SOP is to remove an aspirant from his family permanently. Any further contact is forbidden. The Chapter is his family now. Otherwise see above.

Where do Space Marines fall in the hierarchy of the Imperium in terms of over all power? Do they have something to fear from the Inquisition? Are they somewaht independent but loyal? Are they actually like stormtroopers completely and totally obedient to orders that come from Terra?

Sorry for all the questions but you know how it is when you discover something new you really enjoy. Plus it counts as reserach towards some ideas I was having for a possible story.

Chapters are generally independent political bodies in their own right. Some may hold sway with their local governments, and some (like the Ultramarines) even hold direct control over large swathes of galactic territory.

The Inquisition is a muddy business. Technically the Inquisitor has the power to requisition any and all resources in the name of the Immortal God-Emperor of Mankind, but in practice, they ask Marines for help, not order. It is a pretty strong request however, and most Marines will accept, but ultimately a Chapter Master has the final say in where his Marines do and do not go.

Finally, Marines are loyal in the following order, most to least (in general):

Chapter Master
Primarch (largely moot as they're all out of the picture)
Emperor

Everyone else has to ask the Marines to do something, and very nicely at that.

Hope that helps, and always glad to answer more questions.

[18-Till-I-Die]

The Custodes werent clones though, they were proto-Marines so they were probably just guys he plucked up and turned into uber mench.

Primarchs appear to be implied one of two ways--human babies infused with the Emperor's own gene-seed, or clones of the Emperor's own bloodline.

If the latter, they're most likely not unlike the Sensei as they're the Emperor's own sons, literally. But that is taking the Emperor calling the Primarchs his sons literally, it could be figurative, and they were just normal infants generically modified by the Emperor.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Also, Abbadon is supposedly, some say, the clone son of Horus and we all know how much Abby sucks donkey poodoo. So cloning is...less than good, it seems.

At best, it produces incompetent Chaos Lords with fancy swords, at worst you get the Cursed Founding.