Questions Regarding the Imperium of Man...

[Big Orange]

I have a few NooB questions regarding the Imperium of Man, an "evil" empire that plays a central role in the interminably dark universe of Wahammer 40, 000:

1: How old is the Imperium of Man?

2: Where the humans masters of an even more powerful culture that preceded the Imperium of Man?

3: How far does the territory of the Imperium of Man stretch? How long can a ship cross it?

4: Is the Imperium's ultimate the goal the extermination of all non-humans?

5: How powerful are it's space fleets?

6: Why is the IoM's culture essentially medeval in nature and why is their technology, as highly advanced as it is in some areas, fatally stagnant?

7: How heavily guarded is the Imperium's homeworld, Terra?

[NecronLord]

I have a few NooB questions regarding the Imperium of Man, an "evil" empire that plays a central role in the interminably dark universe of Wahammer 40, 000:

1: How old is the Imperium of Man?

As of the year 40,999, close to 11,000 years old.

2: Where the humans masters of an even more powerful culture that preceded the Imperium of Man?

It seems Artificial Intelligences would be more correctly called its rulers. It's all mythologised, and hard to tell.

3: How far does the territory of the Imperium of Man stretch? How long can a ship cross it?

It spans most of the galaxy, some 70,000 or so light years. An Imperium Ship takes, if it's fast, about six months or more. Other races vary.

4: Is the Imperium's ultimate the goal the extermination of all non-humans?

Yes. It is the manifest destiny of humans to take control of the galaxy, in their dogma.

5: How powerful are it's space fleets?

Very, by most standards. Capable of rapidly depopulating an Earthlike planet with a single ship, when using their WMD.

6: Why is the IoM's culture essentially medeval in nature and why is their technology, as highly advanced as it is in some areas, fatally stagnant?

Slow communications, loose structure, ignorance and supersition.

7: How heavily guarded is the Imperium's homeworld, Terra?

Extraordinarily. It takes a very long time to even get near the planet, due to security searches.

[Lord Zentei]

3: How far does the territory of the Imperium of Man stretch? How long can a ship cross it?

It spans most of the galaxy, some 70,000 or so light years. An Imperium Ship takes, if it's fast, about six months or more. Other races vary.

Well, I got about a decade. Just over an order of magnitude difference between "fast" and "regular" seems reasonable, though.

5: How powerful are it's space fleets?

Very.

About 75 ships per sector fleet as I recall. Alas, the fluff on the size of the sectors seems to be a bit inconsistent.

[NecronLord]

Well, I got about a decade. Just over an order of magnitude difference between "fast" and "regular" seems reasonable, though.

AFAIK, it goes thus:

Couriers, Inquisitorial Ships: 6 months to a year.
Warships: ~1 year
Fast Civillian Transports 2-10 years.
Pilgrim ships: 10+ years.

[Lord Zentei]

Well, I got about a decade. Just over an order of magnitude difference between "fast" and "regular" seems reasonable, though.

AFAIK, it goes thus:

Couriers, Inquisitorial Ships: 6 months to a year.
Warships: ~1 year
Fast Civillian Transports 2-10 years.
Pilgrim ships: 10+ years.

Yeah, my figure was from p. 22 of the Necron Codex: "Three hundred and seven days I journeyed upon the currents of the Empyrean, although to my sisters on Terra almost six years had elapsed as I travelled the length of two thirds of the Emperor's domains".

That implies about 8000c and a time dilation factor of about 1:7 or so. Of course, this was described as a "pilgrimage", even if it was an Adepta Sororitas Canoness.

Incidentally, where are these other figures from?

[Big Orange]

It seems Artificial Intelligences would be more correctly called its rulers. It's all mythologised, and hard to tell.

Have you got any relatively solid info regarding this time period, NecronLord? Any links to related threads, please?

[NecronLord]

Yeah, my figure was from p. 22 of the Necron Codex: "Three hundred and seven days I journeyed upon the currents of the Empyrean, although to my sisters on Terra almost six years had elapsed as I travelled the length of two thirds of the Emperor's domains".

That implies about 8000c and a time dilation factor of about 1:7 or so. Of course, this was described as a "pilgrimage", even if it was an Adepta Sororitas Canoness.

Incidentally, where are these other figures from?

They're just the impressions I got. To be fair, Sancturay 101 is, IIRC, out beyond the Gates of Varl, that's a long way off the main routes. Warp travel is faster if there are good charts and fair winds.

They're mostly the impression I've got from the stuff I've read. I remember lots of stuff about a pilgrimage taking up a good slice of a lifetime, so that's decades, elsewhere, (3E rulebook, IIRC) I've seen warships quoted at a year or so. The GKs, Black Ships, and presumably elite couriers of the Administratum, and AdMech, go 'fast' sometimes much faster than other ships so I've reduced it a bit there, in my estimates. And lots of Civvie ships are described as slow, though this may be as much due to stopovers and things they make as to drive speed.

[Imperial Overlord]

Rogue Trader has the one year=good time quote.

A pilgrimage implies stops at holy sites along the way, so that's going to slow down travel a lot. As a side note, I got an idea for a series of short stories or an rpg campaign based on a long pilgrimage.

[Lord Zentei]

They're just the impressions I got. To be fair, Sancturay 101 is, IIRC, out beyond the Gates of Varl, that's a long way off the main routes. Warp travel is faster if there are good charts and fair winds.

True enough.

Rogue Trader has the one year=good time quote.

A pilgrimage implies stops at holy sites along the way, so that's going to slow down travel a lot. As a side note, I got an idea for a series of short stories or an rpg campaign based on a long pilgrimage.

Of course. It's been too long since I reviewed that book; I need to get my hands on it again (damn, but it is of little use in an attic half an ocean away...)

[NecronLord]

Have you got any relatively solid info regarding this time period, NecronLord? Any links to related threads, please?

Third Edition Rulebook; Page 104, 277 (this is the big one).
First and Only, Dan Abnett; Has Iron Men, the war-droids of the Dark Age of Technology, in it, but only briefly.
Horus Rising, Dan Abnett; Informative on the founding of the Imperium, and pre-imperial human cultures.

Those should be enough to go on with, and no, I don't have any links I'm afraid. There's a Barrington J Baily (IIRC) short story with a human from that time ("It's called science, Jomi") in it too.

[NecronLord]

or an rpg campaign based on a long pilgrimage.

Gah. I send the next fanfic chapter (part one... *gibber*) off to be proofed, and am immediately reminded of the 41K bit that needs doing. ARGH

I'm gonna have to start flagellating myself to make myself write more...

[Lord Zentei]

A rundown:

The so called "Men of Gold" began the Golden Age, as they spread across Old Earth and impose Civilization upon anarchic Nature. The Emperor guided humanity from the shadows.

Later they were joined by the "Men of Stone", who were great artificers, though physically inferior to the Men of Gold and whose technologies expanded mankind to the stars. The Men of Gold, dependant on the technologies of the Men of Stone gradually wane and disapear. This occours at ca. AD 20000. The Golden Age ends.

The Men of Stone build the soulless Men of Iron, these work alongside mankind and serve it initially. This is the 5000 year long Dark Age of Technology, wherein many of the ancient marvels of technology the AdMech seek to recover were developed. In fact, the AdMech itself is founded during this period, apparently.

The Men of Iron eventually grow willful and become the enemies of mankind, beginning the Age of Strife. The Men of Iron are destroyed, but the empire of mankind breaks apart. The Age of Strife lasts 5000 years.

The Emperor takes direct control of the Earth, uniting its warring factions, and begins the Primarch project while the Earth is beset by warp storms. Though the Primarchs are scattered, the Space Marines remain, and with these, the Emperor begins the Great Crusade.

Horus betrays the Emperor, and instigates the Horus Heresy, ruining the Emperor's chances at creating a second Golden Age. Though Horus is destroyed, the Emperor is confined to the Golden Throne. The Age of the Imperium is begun, and thus far has lasted over 10000 years, going on 11000.

=========

I have absolutely no idea what the Men of Gold vs Men of Stone issue is all about.

[Big Orange]

Well the so-called "Men of Iron", "Men of Stone" and "Men of Gold" could be metaphorical names for the different AI castes that ruled humanity's galaxy spanning civilisation that predated the Imperium.

Is there any fluff about Imperium era humans stumbling across DAoT era ships, AIs, robots and other equipment or structures?

And I heard that some human factions in the Dark Age of Technology could move entire solar systems. Did the pre-Imperium humans deal with the Eldar on peaceful terms as well?

And what alien races did the Imperium of Man manage to exterminate utterly (it's a dangerous galaxy kids)?

[NecronLord]

Iron Men are definately robots. That we know for sure, as they've shown a factory of them.

Alien races: Loads of them, it would seem. The races you have models for are the major powers.

[Big Orange]

Iron Men are definately robots. That we know for sure, as they've shown a factory of them.

Was this "factory" some STC that made evil robots that were tainted by Chaos (from what I heard from some fluff material in Wikipedia)?

Are these "Iron Men" similar to necrons, or are they advanced AI that drives sophisticated (but ancient) human technology?

Alien races: Loads of them, it would seem. The races you have models for are the major powers.

Is there any detailed fluff on that?

I've read in some codex book that some pre-Horus Heresy Space Marines helped the Imperium wipe out a sophisticated alien empire that organised it's members into castes according to how they were genetically engineered.

[technomage]

Sounds like some serious retconning has been going on. In the early editions of 40K (Space Marine by Ian Watson), humanity had spread across the galaxy during the Dark Age, but was disunited. A sovereign system here, an alliance there, a pocket empire somewhere else. It was the rise of psykers, and the attendant daemonic/Warp problems that inevitably ensue, that started the wars which destroyed the old civilization and began the Age of Strife, not the Men of Iron. Oh well, that's Games Workshop for you.

Warhammer 40K timeline

[Big Orange]

You could still fit the Men of Iron into the Dark Age of Technology; they may have been servants to the human psykers who could control technology as well as people.

[Imperial Overlord]

Sounds like some serious retconning has been going on. In the early editions of 40K (Space Marine by Ian Watson), humanity had spread across the galaxy during the Dark Age, but was disunited. A sovereign system here, an alliance there, a pocket empire somewhere else. It was the rise of psykers, and the attendant daemonic/Warp problems that inevitably ensue, that started the wars which destroyed the old civilization and began the Age of Strife, not the Men of Iron. Oh well, that's Games Workshop for you.

Warhammer 40K timeline

The timeline that Necronlord and Lord Zentai are describing is presented as more myth than history. It talks about Men of Gold, Men of Stone, and Men of Iron and to my knowledge no one considers it an accurate history but instead a source from which nuggets of information can be gleaned.

I don't know of any place where the cause of the Age of Strife is authoritatively mentioned. Mankind's psychic potential was increasing during it, which may have precipitated all sorts of unpleasantness in whatever Dark Age civilization(s) existed. We do know that there are multiple references to widespread A.I. versus human fighting during that period.

[Lord Zentei]

Well the so-called "Men of Iron", "Men of Stone" and "Men of Gold" could be metaphorical names for the different AI castes that ruled humanity's galaxy spanning civilisation that predated the Imperium.

Is there any fluff about Imperium era humans stumbling across DAoT era ships, AIs, robots and other equipment or structures?

And I heard that some human factions in the Dark Age of Technology could move entire solar systems. Did the pre-Imperium humans deal with the Eldar on peaceful terms as well?

And what alien races did the Imperium of Man manage to exterminate utterly (it's a dangerous galaxy kids)?

The Men of Iron were described as being "soulless", and they were definately robots. The others were described as the "men of the Gold Race" and the "men of the Stone Race" so that is actually suggestive of different kinds of human more than AIs, though it is certainly very vague.

As for races that have actually been destroyed, there was mention of some race or other in the Emperor's Children part of the Index Astartes, I can't remember what they were called. In any case, there were some who deemed them worthy of protectorate status, but Fulgrim would have none of that, since only Mankind was perfect. He then proceded to wipe them out; apparently they bred caste members who were optimized for particular roles in war and peace.

[Big Orange]

The Men of Iron were described as being "soulless", and they were definately robots. The others were described as the "men of the Gold Race" and the "men of the Stone Race" so that is actually suggestive of different kinds of human more than AIs, though it is certainly very vague.

What did the Men of Iron actually look like? Are there any pictures or even models of the Men of Iron (that GW don't make anymore)?

As for races that have actually been destroyed, there was mention of some race or other in the Emperor's Children part of the Index Astartes, I can't remember what they were called. In any case, there were some who deemed them worthy of protectorate status, but Fulgrim would have none of that, since only Mankind was perfect. He then proceded to wipe them out; apparently they bred caste members who were optimized for particular roles in war and peace.

Like I said:

"I've read in some codex book that some pre-Horus Heresy Space Marines helped the Imperium wipe out a sophisticated alien empire that organised it's members into castes according to how they were genetically engineered."

This nameless race that was squashed by the Imperium sound creepily similar to the Tau (they had a rigid caste system like the Tau) only unlike the Tau they were not spared by the Imperium and exterminated.

It would make good WH40K fluff, writing out the story of some random, peaceful and blameless alien cultures that gets mercilessly eradicated by the might of the Imperium.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

I would argue that the Age of Strife can rather easily be said to be caused by the Fall of the Eldar and Slaanesh's pre-birth thrashings, which caused massive Warp storms throughout the galaxy, in turn causing Warp travel to be utterly impossible (and later it would still be exceedingly difficult of course, requiring the Astronomicon), which in turn caused human civilization to implode as all interstellar relations were cut off abruptly. All ca. 25000, 26000, somewhere around there.

It was at this point the Emperor realized he needed to take a direct hand in guiding Humanity, as Chaos was simply growing too powerful and Humanity too human to be trusted with themselves. The rest of course is history: The Emperor reunites Terra with the first proto-Space Marines, works on Primarchs, blah blah blah, Slaanesh born, Eldar all but annihilated, Great Crusade, all that jazz.

[Elheru Aran]

Just a quick note-- Iron Men are not related to the Necrons, as they are robots. Necrons are Necrontyr souls in metal bodies... and originated several million years before the first caveman crawled out of the trees

[Lord Zentei]

Just a quick note-- Iron Men are not related to the Necrons, as they are robots. Necrons are Necrontyr souls in metal bodies... and originated several million years before the first caveman crawled out of the trees

Necrontyr minds in robot bodies. There are indications that they are soulless.

There was a terrible, terrible moment when I thought that the Men of Iron would indeed be the Necrons, and that was when I read "First and Only" which came before the Necron fluff, iirc. In it, the Men of Iron are described as being skeletal robotic warriors. Thankfully, that turned out not to be.

[Lord Zentei]

The Men of Iron were described as being "soulless", and they were definately robots. The others were described as the "men of the Gold Race" and the "men of the Stone Race" so that is actually suggestive of different kinds of human more than AIs, though it is certainly very vague.

What did the Men of Iron actually look like? Are there any pictures or even models of the Men of Iron (that GW don't make anymore)?

The Men of Iron are not nor have they ever been to my best knowledge part of any 40K game. Though there were in fact robots in Rogue Trader, that does not mean "Men of Iron" as they were meant to have become willful. As for what they have been represented to look like, read the spoilerized text in my previous post.

"I've read in some codex book that some pre-Horus Heresy Space Marines helped the Imperium wipe out a sophisticated alien empire that organised it's members into castes according to how they were genetically engineered."

This nameless race that was squashed by the Imperium sound creepily similar to the Tau (they had a rigid caste system like the Tau) only unlike the Tau they were not spared by the Imperium and exterminated.

It would make good WH40K fluff, writing out the story of some random, peaceful and blameless alien cultures that gets mercilessly eradicated by the might of the Imperium.

They were not the Tau; their variance in morphology was much greater; for instance, there were fast attack warriors that were bred to be as fast overland as bikes, etc. Moreover, they were destroyed 11000 years ago, whereas the Tau develped their civilization within the past two or three thousand years.

[nick012000]

Just a quick note-- Iron Men are not related to the Necrons, as they are robots. Necrons are Necrontyr souls in metal bodies... and originated several million years before the first caveman crawled out of the trees

More than that. Their war with the Old Ones cooincided wit h the extiction of the dinosaurs. I doubt that was cooincidental.