Star Wars VS. Starship Troopers.

[Subnormal]

I know the Empire has billions of star systems the Humans in ST only have one, but what about the Bugs what if the bugs could do one of those Astroid throwie thingys against say a death Star or empirial planet, or ISD. I mean imagine how Stormtroopers would fight against thousands of bugs compared to only hundreds of ewoks. It would be cool to see Empiral troops get toasted by Tanker bugs, and torn apart by Warrior bugs, and have their ships blown to peices by Plasma bugs. Heck it would be cool to see a few head and helmet less Stormtroopers from Hopper bugs. I say the empire doesn't have a chance...



Also I think ST needs a sequel.... Can I get a Hell yeah.

[Wicked Pilot]

I know the Empire has billions of star systems the Humans in ST only have one, but what about the Bugs what if the bugs could do one of those Astroid throwie thingys against say a death Star or empirial planet, or ISD.

The asteroid would be shot into thousands of peices by turbolasers

I mean imagine how Stormtroopers would fight against thousands of bugs compared to only hundreds of ewoks.

The bugs only seem to inhabit dry arid worlds. This is the stormtrooper's forte. The Battle of Geonosis would be a good indicator as to what would happen.

It would be cool to see Empiral troops get toasted by Tanker bugs, and torn apart by Warrior bugs, and have their ships blown to peices by Plasma bugs. Heck it would be cool to see a few head and helmet less Stormtroopers from Hopper bugs. I say the empire doesn't have a chance...

Those tanker bugs would be ineffective against Imperial armor. The AT-ATs would simply stomp on the warrior bugs like a human stomping on an ordinary cockroach.
This arguement is however irrevelant, without planetary shielding, bug infested planets would easily be turned into molted slag by orbiting fleets.

The bugs don't stand a chance

[Subnormal]

But you forgot to recognize the Plasma bugs which flung the blue crap into space, I don't know about you but I don't think imperial shields could of stopped flying flaming Plasma balls. I still believe the tanker bugs would be able to burn through imperial troop armor, as the troopers in the movie got their armor completely toasted off. I mean I don't think the Imp inside the armor would survive a direct hit as his armor would become an Oven making him boil. I think enough of those Hopper bugs would be able to take down and AT ST. I think a Plasma bug would drop an AT AT, or an ISD. I used to watch the CG TV series and they had a massive transport bug with wings and somekind of propulsion that could go from planet to planet as a landing craft. The bugs also in the CG series lived on all means of planets, water covered ones, tropical, desert, swamp. But the Humans had way better weaponry in the Series and they kicked a lot of ass. I wish I could buy that series on DVD that show kicked ass, but If it were real humans and CG bugs like the original movie and it would be played on Showtime or HBO that would kick way more ass.

[Wicked Pilot]

Your joking right?

But you forgot to recognize the Plasma bugs which flung the blue crap into space, I don't know about you but I don't think imperial shields could of stopped flying flaming Plasma balls.

Imperial Star Destroyers are much more powerful than those unshilded tin cans in the movie. They would effortlessly deflect the plasma, especially since only one side of the ship is exposed. In the unlikely event of a shield failure, the ISD would simply go to a higher orbit.

I still believe the tanker bugs would be able to burn through imperial troop armor, as the troopers in the movie got their armor completely toasted off.

Yeah, and because a 50 caliber slug can penetrate a kevlar vest, it must likewise be able to penetrate an Abrams tank.(don't answer that, I'm being sarcastic) This is however irrevelant, as Storm Troopers would most likely stay inside the walkers as they did on Hoth. They would only come out for mopping up actions, and would not engage the tanker bugs.

I mean I don't think the Imp inside the armor would survive a direct hit as his armor would become an Oven making him boil.

You have evidense of this? Calcs? Anything? Real life stunt men set themselves on fire for a living, do they ever die because of the heat?

I think enough of those Hopper bugs would be able to take down and AT ST.

Not before the AT-ATs mow them down at long range, and TIE Bombers nuke'm beyond that. The bugs have not shown a defense against air attacks.

I think a Plasma bug would drop an AT AT, or an ISD.

We've never seen a plasma bug attack ground forces. And they are no where near powerful enough to pose a threat to an ISD.

I used to watch the CG TV series...

I could be wrong, but I doubt anybody here cares about the TV series. The movie is canon, and if there where to be a sequel, the TV series would probably not be taken into account.

[Subnormal]

Wonderful thoughts and evidence.

[Pablo Sanchez]

This fellow is obviously trolling.

The First rule of Web Boarding is:
Don't feed the trolls!

The Second Rule of Web Boarding is:

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!

[Admiral Valdemar]

In the words of Cheradenine Zakalwe: you guys have no idea of fairplay, do you?

[Gil Hamilton]

Hold on, they've got lots of planets in Starship Troopers. I'll post a list in a few hours when I get home where I have the book.
Secondly, the Bugs don't use asteroids, they very clearly were stated to use bombardments from ships.

Stormtroopers versus Arachnid Warriors would be very bad for the Stormtroopers. I don't think they can stand up to thousands and thousands of intelligent, swift bastards that work perfectly in tandem and carry rayguns that can shoot straight through Mobile Infantry armor. Not to mention their ability to not die when you hit them. Like Rico said, you can blow off 4 of their legs and they topple over but continue to fight and even hitting their brain case will kill it, but it will continue shooting and moving in the same direction they were going. And that's against MI weapons. Not to knock Stormtroopers, but MIs totally outclass them and Arachnids are a match for them, what are Stormies going to do?

And no Starship Troopers doesn't need a sequel. Robert Heinlein is dead, so he can't write another, and no one else has the right to do it.

[Gil Hamilton]

Incidently, countdooku reeks of SBs John Blair.

[willburns84]

Hey, forget the bugs. Go with Mobile Infantry versus the Imperial Army. And I don't mean namby-pamby movie mobile infantry, I mean suits of heavy battle armor, heavy flamers, and nuclear tipped missiles on their shoulders (lots of 'em) - and enough armor to be able to take close range nuclear blasts (how close I cannot remember - it has been a while since I've read the novel).

"What is that, an AT-AT?" FWOOSH! BOOM! Sure, armor is tough, but I'm willing to guess not quite that tough. Well, I'm willing to hope it isn't that tough.

[Master of Ossus]

The Mobile infantry would not stand a chance. Their projectile weapons cannot penetrate stormtrooper armor, unless it manages to hit the rubber body glove between the gaps in the armor. The odds against this would allow the stormtroopers to stay in the fight for long periods of time, but the E-11s would shred the best armor that the Mobile Infantry has.

We don't exactly know how strong AT-AT armor is, but ISD's can withstand thermonuclear blasts to their hulls. AT-AT armor is probably made of similar material. In Isard's Revenge, it is stated that X-Wings can destroy AT-AT walkers with one proton torpedo each. A proton torpedo is more powerful than a nuclear warhead, and since the AT-AT's were moving in formation, it can be assumed that a proton torpedo fired into their formation, or detonated next to several of them, would not be sufficient to destroy the entire formation, and probably would not be enough to destroy one of them (or else they would have been able to destroy the walkers at a better ratio of torpedoes to walkers). This, to me, indicates that a nuclear blast would not destroy an AT-AT walker. Such a weapon would almost certainly be enough to overwhelm Stormtrooper armor, and could likely be used better by the MI's as an anti-infantry group weapon. Such weapons would likely be enough to destroy large groups of approaching Stormtroopers. They would not be enough to affect AT-ATs. I do not know enough about the heavy flamers, or about the Stormtrooper armor's thermal abilities to be able to determine if they could be used to defeat large groups of stormtroopers.

[willburns84]

You're right about the AT-AT armor actually withstanding the energy discharge of a nuclear weapon going off, but where are you getting the stats for stormie armor resisting kinetic energy weapons? Would there be a reason to even put that in their armor - they're going to be facing adversaries with energy weapons. Riot control? The stormies would sooner mow everyone down with their blasters rather than go toe to toe with them. I don't recall any of the movies showing stormies taking fire from any sort of projectile weapons and being able to judge how well their armor faired (and please no one mention Ewoks ).

[Master of Ossus]

Stormtrooper armor is designed to protect the wearer against many things. In modern warfare, most casualties are actually caused by shrapnel instead of bullets. Even in a world dominated by energy weapons, it would probably still be important to be protected against shrapnel and debris and the like. Also remember that stormtroopers ARE to be used for riot control, occasionally, and they are often subjugating primitive peoples that may or may not have energy weapons (Noghri). I am getting my statistics for the KE resistance of stormtrooper armor from the book Lightsabers. In it, a person wearing a breast plate from a stormtrooper is hit with a thrown spear by a cyborg. The weapon dents the armor, but its integrity was not compromised significantly. That was a demonstration of the effectiveness of the armor, and the man who was hit continued wearing that suit of armor instead of acquiring another one (though others were available). This indicates an astonishing degree of KE resistance, though the black body glove does not offer such protection.

Incidentally, in the books the armor also protects stormtroopers from chemical and biological agents, radiation, temperature extremes, and even hard vacuum (for a period of time). It also does a BETTER job of protecting them from energy weapons, though the protection is far from complete.

[willburns84]

I'm familiar with the general information on the site, I'm aware of the NBC and general hostile environment capabilities of stormie armor But the book "Lightsaber"? Old book? New? I've never heard of this one before. Perhaps you mean Darksaber? ::

[Master of Ossus]

No, I mean Lightsabers. It's part of the Young Jedi Knights series, and was written by every SW fan's favorite author, Kevin J. Anderson!

[willburns84]

Ugh. Young Jedi Knights series. I won't touch that with a ten foot cattle prod.

[Typhonis 1]

Gil we are talking about the sucky Starship Troopers movie not the excellent book.

[Gil Hamilton]

Typhonis 1: That "movie" doesn't exist to me. There is only one Mobile Infantry in my mind and it's the powered suited, super fast, heavily armed variety that was created by Robert Heinlein as the army of the future. The goofy guys in bicycle armor who scream and run blindly into the fray don't deserve to bear the proud name.

Master of Ossus: I, and I suspect willburns84, were refering to the Mobile Infantry in the book. The variety that calls a mile "close range" and sends 50 MI into a sprawling city and sets most of it on fire in under a half hour. This city was big enough that they were shooting off peewee nukes ("less than two kilotons nominal yield, with a tamper and implosion squeeze to produce less-than-critical mass") and not hurting enough other.

On the topic of the Psuedo-Arachnids:
<priest voice>A Reading from the Book of Starship Troopers</priest voice>

Their soldiers can't. Their workers can't fight (and you can waste a lot of time and ammo shooting up workers who wouldn't say boo!) and their soldier caste can't surrender. But don't make the mistake of thinking that the Bugs are just stupid insects because they look the way they do and don't know how to surrender. Their warriors are smart, skilled, and aggressive - smarter than you are, by the only universal rule, if the Bug shoots first. You can burn off one leg, two legs, three legs, and he just keeps on coming; burn off four on one side and he topples over - but keeps on shooting. You have to spot the nerve case and get it... whereupon he will trot right past you, shooting at nothing, until her crashes into a wall or something.

Only about one in fifty is a Warrior - but he makes up for the other forty-nine. Their personal weapons aren't as heavy as ours but are lethal all the same - they've got a beam that will penetrate armor and slice flesh like cutting a hard-boiled egg, and they co-operate even better than we do... because the brain that is doing the heavy thinking for a "squad" isn't where you can reach it; it's down one of the holes.

Those Bugs lay eggs. They could not only lay them, they hold them in reserve, hatch them as needed. If we killed a warrior - or a thousand, or ten thousand - his or their replacements were hatched and on duty almost before we could get back to base. You can imagine, if you like, some Bug supervisor of population flasking a phone to somewhere down inside and saying "Joe, warm up ten thousand warriors and have 'em ready by Wednesday... and tell the engineers to activate reserve incubators N, O, P, Q, and R; the demand is picking up.
I don't say they did exactly that, but those were the results. But don't make the mistake of thinking they are acting purely out of instinct, like termites or ants; their actions were as intelligent as our (stupid races don't build spaceships!) and were much better coordinated. It takes a minimum of a year to train a private to fight and to mesh his fighting with his mates; a Bug warrior is hatched able to do this.
Every time we killed a thousand Bugs at the cost of one M.I. it was a net victory for the Bugs.

I'll post more info on the Arachnids later, it's getting a bit late.

[IDMR]

Hold on, they've got lots of planets in Starship Troopers. I'll post a list in a few hours when I get home where I have the book.
Secondly, the Bugs don't use asteroids, they very clearly were stated to use bombardments from ships.

Stormtroopers versus Arachnid Warriors would be very bad for the Stormtroopers. I don't think they can stand up to thousands and thousands of intelligent, swift bastards that work perfectly in tandem and carry rayguns that can shoot straight through Mobile Infantry armor. Not to mention their ability to not die when you hit them. Like Rico said, you can blow off 4 of their legs and they topple over but continue to fight and even hitting their brain case will kill it, but it will continue shooting and moving in the same direction they were going. And that's against MI weapons. Not to knock Stormtroopers, but MIs totally outclass them and Arachnids are a match for them, what are Stormies going to do?

And no Starship Troopers doesn't need a sequel. Robert Heinlein is dead, so he can't write another, and no one else has the right to do it.

Gil, the fellow was clear thinking of the film bugs - look at his reference to Plasma bugs and tanker bugs which made no appearance in the book at all.

[Gil Hamilton]

Gil, the fellow was clear thinking of the film bugs - look at his reference to Plasma bugs and tanker bugs which made no appearance in the book at all.

I know, but I figured that discussing the real Starship Troopers rather than the non-canon, non-quality non-movie was much more interesting a debate.

[Master of Ossus]

Ugh. Young Jedi Knights series. I won't touch that with a ten foot cattle prod.

I know, but the incident still happened, even if we don't want the series to exist.

[IDMR]

Gil, the fellow was clear thinking of the film bugs - look at his reference to Plasma bugs and tanker bugs which made no appearance in the book at all.

I know, but I figured that discussing the real Starship Troopers rather than the non-canon, non-quality non-movie was much more interesting a debate.

[rabid warsie]Strawman! Strawman![/rabid warsie]

Anyway, even the Book MI would be defeated by sheer industrial capacity. On the ground they pose a great threat, and we don't know enough about their space ships to say how well they will fare against Imperial warships (Nova bombs are not really a good gauge - and if their travel time is any indication, strategic speed alone will doom them.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Stormtrooper armor is designed to protect the wearer against many things. In modern warfare, most casualties are actually caused by shrapnel instead of bullets. Even in a world dominated by energy weapons, it would probably still be important to be protected against shrapnel and debris and the like. Also remember that stormtroopers ARE to be used for riot control, occasionally, and they are often subjugating primitive peoples that may or may not have energy weapons (Noghri). I am getting my statistics for the KE resistance of stormtrooper armor from the book Lightsabers. In it, a person wearing a breast plate from a stormtrooper is hit with a thrown spear by a cyborg. The weapon dents the armor, but its integrity was not compromised significantly. That was a demonstration of the effectiveness of the armor, and the man who was hit continued wearing that suit of armor instead of acquiring another one (though others were available). This indicates an astonishing degree of KE resistance, though the black body glove does not offer such protection.

Incidentally, in the books the armor also protects stormtroopers from chemical and biological agents, radiation, temperature extremes, and even hard vacuum (for a period of time). It also does a BETTER job of protecting them from energy weapons, though the protection is far from complete.

The protection against vacuum conditions through the simple addition of a life support backpack like that worn by Imperial fighter pilots would appear to be actual canon. In the special edition of SW:ANH, as the Millenium Falcon is being pulled into one of the docking bays of the Death Star, two stormtroopers can be seen standing by a pair of turbolaser turrets. The troopers are wearing backpack units that look suspiciously like armored life support packs, especially as the packs appear to be hardshell units made of the same material as the stormtrooper armor. The only logical conclusion appears to be that the troopers are in fact standing outside, relying on their armor and life support packs. There appears no other possible justification for wearing such a backpack while on a friendly battle station filled with military supplies and a million or so fellow troops.

Speculation follows:
Considering the size of something like the Death Star, or even an ISD, it appears likely that while the vessels are not underway those areas that could conceivably be used by covert infiltrators or saboteurs are subject to regular deck patrols. After all, the convoluted structures (what Curtis Saxton and others have termed cortex) common to those portions of ISDs not covered by armor plating would offer plenty of hiding places and points of access for a sufficiently stealthy saboteur while the ISD is sitting in orbit somewhere.

[Master of Ossus]

I guess you're right about their ability to survive in vacuum being canon. That's interesting.

[Subnormal]

I think you overestimate the power of imperial stormtrooper armor. You say the bullets wouldn't be able to penetrate imperial armor instead they would bounce right off them. I would like to bring evidence that supports my views that the bullets and other kenitic weapons would cause severe amounts of damage to an imperial stormtrooper. My first peice of evidence is the Death Star explosion in ANH. Now you say that a stormtrooper can withstand explosions, the vacuum of space, extreme heat, and kenitic weapons, but did you ever wonder why NONE of them are alive and floating away into space, as the Deathstar was swarming with them, wouldn't the armor not protect them from such an explosion as you have stated. Another canon view is of Empirials in ROTJ where as you can audibly hear Stormtroopers screaming in agony, when ewoks hit them with stones and arrows, thus meaning that kenitic weapons would cause serious internal inguries. The movie Starship Troopers shows the MI using machine guns which appear to be above .30 caliber which in real like can penitrate 3/4" thick steel, now the stormtroopers use a high brid Plastisteel which uses the flexibility of plastic with the strength of steel, the imperial armor would practicly be worthless to kenitic weapons, as internal injuries are ten times more vital, and harder to treat.

Now you also state that an ISD would use it's Turbolasers to blast a flying astroid to bits before it could hit it, now this may be true if it were a small astroid as the ones the SDs destroyed in Empire, but as you can see right after the shot where Han and Leia are making out and 3po interupts them, a massive Astroid hits the bridge, completely destroying the whole thing. And the next scene you see the Holos of imperial officers one appears to flail and protect his face and then his holo disappears. And also Admiral Peit states to Vader that "if they sustained half the damage we have they must of been destroyed" this meaning the ISD fleet sustained heavy damage caused by flying matter, which can fly threw their shields. Now the astroid that was sent to earth by the arachnids in Starship Troopers was able to kill 90 million people, and that is after it went through the atmosphere. Now I can understand if an entire Starfleet was to open fire on an astroid this big but one ISD would be destoyed or heavily damaged. The movie Starship troopers doesn't show how many or how big the astroids the arachnids could throw at any place or how long they take to get there. I do believe you are right about the speed differences, and the lack of planetary shields, but an entire ISD starfleet couldn't destoy one planet if they tried as han stated in ANH, and as the bugs live deep deep underground an imperial bombardment would be useless. And the bugs could easily just lay and incubate the bugs that they needed most, according to their situation. I believe warriors are still effective against stormtroopers, but if they don't work tankers could easily be instituted. I am not to sure of what an ISD shield can take and what it can't take, but I still believe the ISD needs to get really close to the planets surface or use some kind of dropship to place walkers on the surface, this could open them to possible bombardment by Plasma bugs at close range. Now I don't believe Plasma would just be deflected by ISD shields, Plasma is super heated and according to its color it is very very hot, I believe this hot matterial could easily pass through the ISD shields, as the ISD shields appear to be able to stop only Energy weapons, multiple amounts of evidence to this in the films. The bug plasma may also work like the Ion cannon did in Empire, as Plasma is an intensely ionized gas.

Id figure I would try to show that I am a little more educated and the argument isn't so lopsided toward the Imperials kicking ass.