human wanking syndrome - another sci fi brain bug?

[mr friendly guy]

I have seen in various sci fi what I am starting to term the human wanking syndrome.

Essentially it goes along the lines of given time humans would become a super dooper powerful civilisation more powerful than the top dogs of that particular sci fi universe.

examples can be found in

1) Marvel comics (not exactly pure sci fi) - where humans are predicted to eventually 'evolve' into God like beings with the mental powers to dominate the whole universe

2) Star Trek - Q stating to Riker that given time humans may surpass the Q because of our drive to explore new things.

3) Doctor Who - novels showing that the Time Lords (Doctor Who's people who are one of the uber powers of the universe with an almost complete monopoly on time travel) predict that eventually humans will invent better time travel machines than them near the end of the universe

4) Babylon 5 - humans do 'evolve' into energy beings (however that one works) and supposedly takes over the role of Vorlons.

This brain bug ticks me off because it smacks of being based on an ego trip rather than 'realism' (in universe).

[Shinova]

There's plenty of works out there where Humanity is either destroyed or pretty much gone anyway. I suppose Wh40k can be one, in a way.

[mr friendly guy]

I am not saying that there are not any works where humans gets beaten, eg Xeelee books.

What I dislike about this brain bug is that it smacks of 'unrealistic' how humans despite starting off so far behind will catch up to uber sci fi powers, how these uber powers can somehow predict that, and to top it off, this stupidity now is no longer confined to Marvel comics.

[Stofsk]

B5 was good in that it showed humans being fairly low in the peking order of all the other alien races. They were basically on par with the Narn, and while some of the LoNAR were more powerful, they didn't have humanity's reckless drive to expand. B5 would have been good if that dreck episode, the Deconstruction of Falling Stars, was never made.

SW has humans at the top purely by numbers. They dominate the SW galaxy merely by being more numerous than any other species. They're not stronger, they're not tougher, nor do they evolve into 'higher beings' unless you count the Jedi, which have aliens in them.

[dworkin]

It's hardly universal. That a small amount of SF shows humanity 'evolving' god-like powers does not make it a trend of the genre.

For counter examples there's War of the Worlds, Red Dwarf, The Uplift series, The Master of Paxwax, Beserker series, Night's Dawn series, The Time Machine and Hothouse. In all these stories humans are not top dog by any stretch of the imagination. Add to that most of the SF which takes place in a setting where there are only humans in explored space.

In some stories humans have a 'manifest destiny'. But in a lot they dont.

[Shroom Man 777]

In my personal universe, there are many human nations in the known galaxy, coexisting with friendly and hostile alien powers. There are even human nations at odds with other human nations. One of them serves as the United States of America in the interstellar community, being perhaps the most powerful of all, but barely. The two other major human powers are also very powerful, but not as powerful as the USA of the future and are by no means superior to the other alien nations. Some of the alien nations are just about as strong as the top human nations, probably stronger than some, one of them is in a sort of Cold War against the USA of the future, this alien nation is USSRish. Oh, and there's the typical mysterious threatening alien race which can kick just about everyone's ass. Most of them have psions among them, and we don't find humans having more powerful psions than the others.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Es Arkajae is a real life fanatic of this order. Over at SB.com, he'd easily tell you of how humanity (with the backing of God) would topple any space faring species we came across if they exist. Either he was dropped one too many times as a baby, or he believes merging this sci-fi concept with religious lore will make it reality.

[mr friendly guy]

Es Arkajae is a real life fanatic of this order. Over at SB.com, he'd easily tell you of how humanity (with the backing of God) would topple any space faring species we came across if they exist. Either he was dropped one too many times as a baby, or he believes merging this sci-fi concept with religious lore will make it reality.

Since God gets beaten by iron chariots and displays a very poor grasp of science, I wonder how he figures that one out. But then he thinks a minor political party which doubles its number of seats in the recent Aussie election did poorly.

I guess he was dropped once too many as a kid.

[NecronLord]

3) Doctor Who - novels showing that the Time Lords (Doctor Who's people who are one of the uber powers of the universe with an almost complete monopoly on time travel) predict that eventually humans will invent better time travel machines than them near the end of the universe

While I've not read the novels in question, I'd like to point out that this was also true of the daleks, and look what the Time Lords did to them.

Babylon five seemed to go that way, because of all the major races shown in the series, the humans were the least petty (see the Minbari, who have some major character flaws, never mind the Centauri). And, rather conducive to the Young Races advancing, the big boy First Ones were kind enough to leave. In the scale of a million years, a few hundred years this way or that isn't going to matter.

[Dahak]

Well, I guess it is only natural that some people would like to see humanity become something greater than now.
Equally normal that some more pessimistic people would like to see humanity fail

Recent example I read was the latest Xeelee book. It really seems tragic; wasting billions of lifes in one year, and your opponent just views you as irritant...

[18-Till-I-Die]

Well, I guess it is only natural that some people would like to see humanity become something greater than now.
Equally normal that some more pessimistic people would like to see humanity fail

Recent example I read was the latest Xeelee book. It really seems tragic; wasting billions of lifes in one year, and your opponent just views you as irritant...

Yeah, going off topic for a sec, could someone explain exactly what the Humans in the Xeelee novels sought to accomplish fighting the Xeelee? What did a little Xeelee boy nova Sol by blinking at it and we got pissed or what; i mean why waste so much on fighting an enemy obviously, demonstrably beyond even the most powerful capabilities of your weapons?

[Peregrin Toker]

Oh, and there's the typical mysterious threatening alien race which can kick just about everyone's ass.

Whom are you referring to? The Apexais? The Shapeshifters? The Galimi?

[Imperial Overlord]

In the Xeelee verse humanity is twice conquered by aliens, so it gets a little pathological about being top dog. So after becoming nasty and beating down most other species, that leaves the Xeelee and we all know how that goes.

[Dahak]

Well, I guess it is only natural that some people would like to see humanity become something greater than now.
Equally normal that some more pessimistic people would like to see humanity fail

Recent example I read was the latest Xeelee book. It really seems tragic; wasting billions of lifes in one year, and your opponent just views you as irritant...

Yeah, going off topic for a sec, could someone explain exactly what the Humans in the Xeelee novels sought to accomplish fighting the Xeelee? What did a little Xeelee boy nova Sol by blinking at it and we got pissed or what; i mean why waste so much on fighting an enemy obviously, demonstrably beyond even the most powerful capabilities of your weapons?

It was humanity's one big hybris: to think they are the dominant species and the Xeelee were depriving them of their due status.
For one, the humans just did not comprehend the full scale at which the Xeelee operate and how insignificant they were.
And over 20,000 years they have settled themselves into their little war quite nicely.

[Styphon]

Es Arkajae is a real life fanatic of this order. Over at SB.com, he'd easily tell you of how humanity (with the backing of God) would topple any space faring species we came across if they exist. Either he was dropped one too many times as a baby, or he believes merging this sci-fi concept with religious lore will make it reality.

and on that note, I'd just like to say that C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy should be required reading, by law, for all religious fanatics who also like sci-fi...

[Petrosjko]

It was the 'humans are the toughest, most sensitive and enlightened' attitude that drove me away from TNG. Every week, the Enterprise-D pulls up on some world and Picard, Riker or somebody explains how 'Yes, we used to excrete in the dark times of our history, but these days we're far beyond that.'

Unless of course it was a pacifistic culture or idyllic pastoral culture, in which case they suddenly became all ashamed of the fact that they had phasers and even used them once a season or so.

'Scuse me while I hurl.

That is what I liked about B5. I don't recall the name of the episode offhand, but the one with the sick alien kid, the warped alien religion, and Franklin. Instead of the sappy standard TNG ending, with the backwards aliens admitting that the human way was superior and throwing away their cultural beliefs, Franklin steps in it and unknowingly signs the kid's death warrant.

On The Deconstruction of Falling Stars, I think people extrapolate a little too much from that episode. The only thing we know for sure is that human beings evolved into some form of Vorlonesque life. We don't know what attitudes they carried with them, if they adopted the Vorlons stances, anything. Usage of Vorlon-style encounter suits can easily be explained by earlier dealings with the Vorlons, not to mention close contact with the more heavily Vorlon-influenced Minbari.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Another side of this same situation is you never see a series where humans are the villains either. Just once i'd love to see some aliens fighting the facist Terran Empire or something, just to mix things up.

I actually went that route with a story, Eons, where humans had evolved into 'hyperspatial life-forms' (read: Vorlons) and were all the more racist Nazi assholes for it. The premise was they swept through the galaxy every ten million years and killed any non-human life cause they couldnt stand the very existance of any non-human sentient beings, and the aliens were desperately fighting back.

But in real sci-fi they never even try that really. The humans are always so uptight, even the ones on B5, i feel guilty for watching. I see these rediculously upstanding folks like Sheridan and Picard and i feel like 'Gee...i suck. I belong in prison or something'.

One time i want to see a guy like Hitler just wipe out an alien race. And he isnt misunderstood, or a rogue human, he's the human leader but he's just a racist Nazi asshole. Whats wrong with a bumpy-headed Klingon her once in a while.

[Petrosjko]

Another side of this same situation is you never see a series where humans are the villains either. Just once i'd love to see some aliens fighting the facist Terran Empire or something, just to mix things up.

Two game examples come to mind. 40K of course, where the Imperium is xenophobic, fascist, cranky, and generally disagreeable. Furthermore, rather than having the human race be dominant by virtue of all the usual human-wanking of sci fi, it largely boils down to the fact that they were actively led by possibly the strongest single psyker in the galaxy and his engineered minions. Now they hold on by virtue of overwhelming numbers and sheer ruthlessness more than anything.

Renegade Legion, where the dominant human power in the galaxy is the Terran Overlord Government, modeled heavily on the worst excesses of the Roman Empire. Expansionistic, racist, sexist, you name it. It does have the human wanking element, though, as an enslaved human race by virtue of persistance and craftiness overthrew its oppressors and rose to become dominant.

[Lord Revan]

This one thing I hate in Scifi that Humans have to strongest, most moral, ect...

while B5 has it's share of Human wank, it's nice that they flawed and when they pick a fight with the second worst badass in the galaxy they get their asses royally kicked and just bearly survive because the enemy stops shooting for some reason.

[Melkor]

In the B5 universe I"m pretty sure all species evolve to the point where they no longer need physical bodies if they survive long enough. The Vorlons are that way, Lorien is that way, humans eventually become that way, and in the shitty B5 movie (not the more recent shitty one) that will not be named an alien in the form of Doctor Franklin explains that his race was undergoing that change and calls it evolving.

[Xon]

Recent example I read was the latest Xeelee book. It really seems tragic; wasting billions of lifes in one year, and your opponent just views you as irritant...

10 billion lives lost per year, for the best part of 20000 years. Have to say onething about them, they are persisatant

Yeah, going off topic for a sec, could someone explain exactly what the Humans in the Xeelee novels sought to accomplish fighting the Xeelee? What did a little Xeelee boy nova Sol by blinking at it and we got pissed or what; i mean why waste so much on fighting an enemy obviously, demonstrably beyond even the most powerful capabilities of your weapons?

Basicly, Xeelee-verse humans got beated up for their lunch money one to many times and they snapped.

[Mayabird]

In A Fire Upon the Deep (a novel by Vernor Vinge) humans are a very insignificant race in the galaxy who are made nearly extinct in a single massive attack. Sure, humans could "ascend" to become gods of a sort, but so can all the rest of the sentient species, and humans haven't while many, many others have. But heck, this universe has applied theology classes; it's bound to be a little weird.

[FOG3]

Another side of this same situation is you never see a series where humans are the villains either. Just once i'd love to see some aliens fighting the facist Terran Empire or something, just to mix things up.

Manga/Anime: Crest of the Stars/Banner of the Stars, "fascist" leading human faction="United Mankind." "Good Guys"= Abh Empire composed of a genetically engineered, race known as the Abh who are the Kin of the Stars. It's actually quite entertaining.

[Dalton]

This brain bug ticks me off because it smacks of being based on an ego trip rather than 'realism' (in universe).

On a related note I've noticed that in these same series humanity is portrayed as a sort of underdog that goes from a piddly backwater non-entity to a major player thanks to the intervention of some outside force and, usually, our own ingenuity. This happened in Babylon 5 with help from the Centauri, in Star Trek with help from the Vulcans and in Stargate SG-1, with the enslavement of the Goa'uld and the help of the Asgard. It seems like an attempt to make humans seem more important than they really are in the grand scheme of things.

Then you have your Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, where humans are really portrayed as backwater idjits, the looneys of the galaxy, whose planet gets in the way of civil construction projects.

[Enforcer Talen]

earthlings, anyway. humans from tau ceti and wherever seem to be doing fine.