[WH40K] Most important Primarchs in the Heresy?

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[WH40K] Most important Primarchs in the Heresy?

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Which of the Primarchs were most important in the Heresy - to the point that one of them turning/not turning would have fundamentally altered the outcome?

Notably: Let's consider cases where a different outcome was possible with some degree of probability. i.e no cases of "What if Malcador had decided to turn to chaos 1!1".
I weigh this also from the POV of multiple counterfactuals. Namely, impact should not be weighed just by saying "if only X had remained loyal", but also "If X had turned and Z had turned traitor, would the overall outcome have changed?"

Most "important":
Traitor Primarchs:
- Magnus
+ If Magnus had not destroyed the Imperial webway, then the Emperor would have Won (Capital W). Hands down.
+ Similarly, if his shards had all been recovered, and he had somehow returned to the Emperor's side, even without his legion, he could have replaced the Emps and Malcador on the Golden throne, both during the siege and in 40K - another major game changer.
He also essentially wanted to be loyal, right up until he was broken, and had most of his soul replaced by Tzeentch, as the Crimson King.

- Horus
+ It's called the Horus Heresy for a reason :).

- Fulgrim
+ Thanks to the Eldar's warnings, he had the opportunity to devastate Horus's fleet, and to warn the emperor in advance of Isstvan of the heresy and Horus's corruption. He could have effectively prevented Isstvan (III and IV), effectively kneecapping the entire Heresy.
+ Has the best record of any of the primarchs when it comes to actually killing a Primarch (Ferrus and Guilliman - the latter arguably being a major reason for 40K being the way it is).
+ Even after meeting Horus - he was given the "keyed" anathame - a second "heel turn" would have meant that he could have effectively guaranteed killing Horus in a duel, given the Kinebracht anathame blade that Horus gave him.
- Most of his legion were tainted by the time of Isstvan, but he was actively encouraging it shortly beforehand (e.g. the chemicals, and killing Lord commander Vespasian (equivalent rank to Eidolon, and whose forces were loyalists). So in terms of military power he'd not add as much as some, but before they went nuts, they had a very rigid command structure, so it's very possible he could have reversed much of the rot.


- Perturabo
+ One of the only non "crazy" Primarchs. Horus's effective, controlled military forces were effectively the Sons of Horus, the Dark Mechanicum, some traitor imperial guard & fleet elements, Alpha legion [small] and and the Iron Warriors. Everyone else was pursuing their own agenda by the time of the siege to varying degrees. Horus explicitly stated how much he relied on him (albeit, it might have also been affected by Pert's absurdly touchy ego).
+ Without Perturabo as the unstoppable force to overcome Dorn's "Immovable object", it's very doubtful that the traitor forces would have had the tactics to overcome the Imperial palaces defences effectively.
+ The overall record would seem to suggest that Pert is better than Dorn. He overcame the defences in the siege (it's much easier to defend at static position than to attack, GW numerical and historical illiteracy be damned), and he crushed Dorn in the Iron cage.
+ He was also essential to wrangling in Angron for the siege, with all his world eaters.
+ He also had the "uber" siege weapons from the Lion, which were said to be essential for cracking the palace.
Effectively, without him, Horus's conventional military efforts would have been crippled.
He was also shown to be extremely loyal in his personality, albeit bitter and peevish. The contradiction being him going on about how he would stay fanatically loyal, after having broken his oath before - but still, it's easy to see him continuing to fight on one side and not the other (which can be said for all Space marines overall).

Loyal Primarchs:
- Guilliman
+ Without the Ultramarines, Horus would have had a good chance of winning the siege, given the effect on morale (no coming reinforcements), and the numerical benefit of having roughly 2.5 entire legions.
However, it's very hard to see a scenario in which Guilliman would have turned. He lacked the ambition, or personality flaws. Even Imperium secundus wasn't an argument in favor of this. Still, the point stands.

- Dorn
+ Lead the defence of the palace and its fortifications.
+ One of the only unbroken legions (no Isstvan or purgings).
As with Bobby-G, it's hard to see a scenario of him being turned.


The Best of the Rest :
- Sanguinius:
Controversial, I know :). His defense of the palace & Ka'bandha is definitely in everyone's favorite moments. However, it's unclear how irreplacable he would have been.
Similarly, his great "Fate" of being killed by Horus, and leading the Emperor go into a Super Saiyan 2 blood rage seems replaceable. One can easily see the same outcome with any of the other primarchs instead of him, or indeed possibly a perpetual or Malcador.

- Lorgar:
+ Second most numeric legion, and had a massive fleet.
+ Influential in corrupting the other legions with lodges and chaplains.
- If he had died and been "replaced" by the leadership of Kor Phaeron and Erebus, literally nothing in the Heresy would have changed (except for Angron not being turned into an overgrown Bloodthirster).
It might have been possible for him not to turn, if he had just smushed Erebus & Kor upon learning about their cults, and/or those two not revealing it to him if the Gods knew that would happen, so this isn't that unlikely a scenario.
In terms of military effects - the biggest thing he did was Calth and the shadow crusade = delaying Guilliman. (Not by enough, but also by just enough to be too late for the siege).

As for the rest: I would argue that while any of them turning or not turning would have had a clear benefit in terms of available forces, it would not have been enough to unilaterally change the outcome. Especially if we suppose a 1:1 exchange.
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Re: [WH40K] Most important Primarchs in the Heresy?

Post by madd0ct0r »

There was a wonderful long running fanfic that flipped all of them - the dornian heresy I think it was.

All those huge archetype epic hero's are very easy to twist either way.
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Re: [WH40K] Most important Primarchs in the Heresy?

Post by LadyTevar »

Personally, I think Fulgrim was the fulcrum that could have swung the battle. If he'd have listened to the warnings of the Eldar.
Unfortunately, I can't see any way he would have listened. :(
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Re: [WH40K] Most important Primarchs in the Heresy?

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

madd0ct0r wrote: 2020-02-11 12:21pm There was a wonderful long running fanfic that flipped all of them - the dornian heresy I think it was.

All those huge archetype epic hero's are very easy to twist either way.
One very long one (that even includes stuff in early 8th edition, with swapped roles of course) was "The Roboutian Heresy" where Gulliman is the one that falls and takes the normally-loyalist ones with him. Sanguinius kills Horus at the gates of the Imperial Palace, and Gulliman himself winds up in stasis on Macragge as per canon.

There was also one I read called "The Imperial Heresy" where Emps is the one who goes nuts and Horus et al try to stop him. Interesting reads, both of them.
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Re: [WH40K] Most important Primarchs in the Heresy?

Post by Imperial Overlord »

Lion El-Johnson

+Defeats the Nightlords and captures Kurze. Kurze's visions and rantings let him know the Emperor is still alive despite being totally out of communication with Terra.
+Convinces Sanguinus and Guilliman to abandon Imperium Secondus to instead push through the Ruinstorm and relieve Earth.
+Possesses the xenotech the enables travel through the Ruinstorm because secretly hoarding totally not forbidden tech that might give him an advantage is what he does.
+This allows the Blood Angels to reach Earth in time with Guilliman close enough behind to put heavy pressure on Horus's forces.
+Wrecks traitor homeworlds and key worlds, laying waste to their infrastructure and preventing them from effectively resisting the loyalist forces after the Siege of Terra.
+Knows that his choices will make others question his loyalty by not directly fighting Horus but does it anyway because he believies his honor and reputation are acceptable casualties.
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Re: [WH40K] Most important Primarchs in the Heresy?

Post by Cykeisme »

Just curious, how come Guilliman and the Ultramarines were still in transit when Sanguinius and the Blood Angels were on Terra to participate in the defense? Did the Blood Angels embark on the long journey to the Sol System earlier than the Ultramarines?
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Re: [WH40K] Most important Primarchs in the Heresy?

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Warp travel is never exactly a precise science, especially given the Ruinstorm (IIRC) that lay between Terra and Macragge. Maybe the Ultramarines and Gulliamn got held up. Or they left first and the Blood Angels got a lucky route and overtook them.

Or maybe Tzeentch was fucking about with his usual chicanery.
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Re: [WH40K] Most important Primarchs in the Heresy?

Post by Imperial Overlord »

After destroying the Ruinstorm, the Ultramarines and the Dark Angels engaged a rearguard force which allowed the Blood Angels to advance unhindered. The plan was the Blood Angels would be able to reach Terra in time to add to its defence (succeeded), the Ultramarines and gathered Imperial splinter forces were to harry Horus's forces and slow them (didn't work but did serve to put time pressure on the Siege of Terra), while the Dark Angels razed their homeworlds and key logistic centers(didn't distract or divide the thrust at Terra as hoped, but did destroy their power base and meant the failure at Terra left the traitors in a very weak position).
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