Transphasic Torpedoes

[WhiteLion]

I noticed that almost no scifi series has countermeasures for phase transition weapons. All usually have shields that can stop attacks in their own phase. Do you think ships like the Daedalus of Stargate, the Galactica or a Star Destroyer could be destroyed by a transphasic torpedo fired at the ship's reactor or in the fuel tank?
Logically it should cross the ship and detonate, and if it detonated in the fuel tank or in the main reactor?

[NecronLord]

They've been discussed here in the past, and the question has always been if they do in fact include a 'Next Phase' style phase shifter which was never included on screen, if so it seems unlikely any except the Daedalus might have a counter against such a thing, and the Daedalus even then is dubious.

[WhiteLion]

ok I understand, thank you very much, but from what is known from canon material broadcast on the screen, do the ships I mentioned have countermeasures that can counteract phase transition weapons? Because as far as I have tried I have found nothing like that except in star trek.

[Eternal_Freedom]

It depends how easy it is to counteract. Galactica, for instance, probably can't - but she was stated to have big electric pulse generators that could help disable missiles (either warheads or guidance) - they were removed by the start of the series and were aboard Colonial One, and Lee used them to stop their civvie fleet being wiped out by Cylon nukes, so they may have been re-installed. It is possible that these pulse generators (and presumably the newer versions that would logically have been mounted on Pegasus) could interfere with whatever effect the fancy torpedo uses. Of course it'd then just detonate on the hull and the Big G couldn't handle that anyway.

It also depends on if phasing through objects before detonating is what the transphasic torpedoes are actually doing - it's been a while since I watched "Endgame" but I don't recall anyone saying that's how they worked, just that they could one-shot Borg cubes. "Transphasic" doesn't really tell us anything about how the weapon works, any more than "Photon torpedo" tells us straight away it's an antimatter-based weapon.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

The best description I've ever been able to find of how Transphasic torpedoes work is from the Destiny novels. It's described as creating a 'subspace compression pulse' that exists in 'an asymmetric superposition of phase states'.

And yes, I know this is technically non-canon, but I have literally nothing else to work with.

As best as I can translate, transphasic torpedoes cause damage by creating a shockwave in subspace; just as a conventional explosive creates a shockwave in air, or a burst of radiation in a vacuum. In that respect, it weaponizes what happened to Praxis, but on a much smaller scale. As for the rest of it, the best I can manage is that subspace, at least when disrupted, shifts and undulates on frequencies; similar to how ripples in water have a frequency, except that subspace can be disrupted on multiple frequencies at the same time and in the same space. This is what makes the transphasic torpedo so deadly, and the effects are twofold. One is that while a shield can stop a subspace shockwave on one frequency or phase state at any given time, the others would slip through and inflict damage. The other is that precisely which frequencies or phase states will appear, and in what configuration, is fundamentally impossible to predict; thus there is, theoretically, no way to completely defend against it.

So as Eternal_Freedom points out, the torpedo doesn't pass through the target - that's more like a Chroniton torpedo, which works by manipulating time. It detonates ahead of the target and hits it with a subspace effect.

So, how would such a weapon be counteracted? Well, aside from making the weapon detonate prematurely, it really depends on the relationship between the defensive technology and subspace. Star Trek shields have a subspace element to them; or at least are able to resist subspace phenomena in at least some cases. Whether other technologies can resist would, by implication, depend on them having some kind of subspace or trans-dimensional quality.

In the case of the Daedalus, this is only my opinion but I'm not seeing it. One universe that might interest is the anime Martian Successor Nadesico, in which the titular ship moves and defends itself by using Phase Transition technology; or at least that's the terminology they use.

[Eternal_Freedom]

So Transphasic torpedoes are subspace weapons? The ones that according to Insurrection are specifically banned by the Khitomer Accords? Well that makes Janeway's promotion to Admiral even more laughable.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

So Transphasic torpedoes are subspace weapons? The ones that according to Insurrection are specifically banned by the Khitomer Accords? Well that makes Janeway's promotion to Admiral even more laughable.

As far as I can tell, they are indeed, and they should be banned by the Khitomer Accords. If nothing else, it would explain why they don't appear again after the Destiny Trilogy.

[Eternal_Freedom]

That and they probably violate the Temporal Prime Directive. Speaking of, given the massive changes in the timeline, where the hell were the 31st century Time Cops?

[WhiteLion]

Despite violating the Khitomer agreements on subspace weapons, I believe that use has been allowed to avoid having human civilization extinguished under the threat of Borg.

[bilateralrope]

One is that while a shield can stop a subspace shockwave on one frequency or phase state at any given time, the others would slip through and inflict damage. The other is that precisely which frequencies or phase states will appear, and in what configuration, is fundamentally impossible to predict; thus there is, theoretically, no way to completely defend against it.

That's only true if shields are limited in the number of frequencies they can block at a time. If the shields can simultaneously block all frequencies (like the shields the Enterprise used to fly into a star to hide from Borg), then hitting them on multiple frequencies isn't going to help.

Other sci-fi universes can defend themselves against them by either moving faster than the torpedo and getting out of the way or by shooting it down.

[WhiteLion]

As far as I know, the shields regulate different frequencies but of the same phase, the transphasic torpedo is in another phase of the matter, practically it is as if it were in a spatial dimension of its own, otherwise it would have been easy to adapt to transfasic torpedoes. Instead these weapons for the Borg are still a problem (and the Borg shields are the most advanced in the Trek universe), they can't completely adapt, someone passes the shields. The problem is that, as we have seen in the episodes of Voyager, a single torpedo is enough to destroy a Borg cube because it covers the ship where it is weakest by going through its defenses.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

One is that while a shield can stop a subspace shockwave on one frequency or phase state at any given time, the others would slip through and inflict damage. The other is that precisely which frequencies or phase states will appear, and in what configuration, is fundamentally impossible to predict; thus there is, theoretically, no way to completely defend against it.

That's only true if shields are limited in the number of frequencies they can block at a time. If the shields can simultaneously block all frequencies (like the shields the Enterprise used to fly into a star to hide from Borg), then hitting them on multiple frequencies isn't going to help.

Other sci-fi universes can defend themselves against them by either moving faster than the torpedo and getting out of the way or by shooting it down.

I suppose it depends what we mean by frequencies. I was referring to frequencies specifically in the context of subspace as opposed to energy or radiation in the physical universe; perhaps that's why they used the term 'phase states' instead.

That said you're right. The Borg do adapt eventually, which suggests that they can indeed defend against multiple subspace phase states at the same time, just as they can defend against multiple radiation frequencies at the same time. They seemingly just needed time to figure out which phase states were relevant, and it cost them cubes in the meantime.

As far as I know, the shields regulate different frequencies but of the same phase, the transphasic torpedo is in another phase of the matter, practically it is as if it were in a spatial dimension of its own, otherwise it would have been easy to adapt to transfasic torpedoes. Instead these weapons for the Borg are still a problem (and the Borg shields are the most advanced in the Trek universe), they can't completely adapt, someone passes the shields. The problem is that, as we have seen in the episodes of Voyager, a single torpedo is enough to destroy a Borg cube because it covers the ship where it is weakest by going through its defenses.

As I understand it, ST ships are highly dependent on shields and structural integrity fields to survive in battle. This is quite plausible, as metallurgy has its limits, and photon torpedoes can supposedly manage the equivalent of a sixty megaton nuke or thereabouts. In the case of Kirk's battle with Chang at Khitomer, we have a ship the size of a large aircraft carrier taking multiple hits from photon torpedoes, yet the visual damage effect is no worse than if the former took a hit from an artillery shell or anti-ship missile. Even if Chang's torpedoes could only manage 20 megatons (his ship being a BOP), a 20 megaton nuke punching into a carrier and detonating should have left nothing but radioactive debris. Clearly the shields and structural integrity fields/defence fields were absorbing the bulk of the energy between them. As a minor point, in Wrath of Khan defence fields are shown as being raised separately from shields.

When it comes to the Borg, my understanding is that the Borg are far better at energy manipulation than Starfleet. Specifically, they can work on a wider range of more narrowly defined frequencies. I got the notion from that one Voyager episode where they tried to use Borg transwarp tech, but failed because they couldn't manage the fine control of the energy flow (or something like that). This ultimately ties into their adaption, which as far as we can see simply involves changing shield/SI field frequencies to stop attacks slipping through.

The same principle could apply to subspace phase states; and it would be the simplest explanation as to how the Borg adapted in the Destiny series. Nevertheless, since transphasic torpedoes could take down cubes in a handful of hits at most, the Borg were relatively slow to adapt, as they were losing whole cubes before they could properly analyse what was happening to them. If they're having to experimentally block more and more phase states until all are blocked, and losing yet more cubes in the meantime, then the process will take longer.

[Formless]

As I understand it, ST ships are highly dependent on shields and structural integrity fields to survive in battle. This is quite plausible, as metallurgy has its limits, and photon torpedoes can supposedly manage the equivalent of a sixty megaton nuke or thereabouts. In the case of Kirk's battle with Chang at Khitomer, we have a ship the size of a large aircraft carrier taking multiple hits from photon torpedoes, yet the visual damage effect is no worse than if the former took a hit from an artillery shell or anti-ship missile. Even if Chang's torpedoes could only manage 20 megatons (his ship being a BOP), a 20 megaton nuke punching into a carrier and detonating should have left nothing but radioactive debris. Clearly the shields and structural integrity fields/defence fields were absorbing the bulk of the energy between them. As a minor point, in Wrath of Khan defence fields are shown as being raised separately from shields.

Uh, not exactly a good analogy there. Nukes in space behave radically differently from nukes in atmosphere. In fact, all explosives behave differently in space than in atmosphere. In Earth's atmosphere, all the gamma rays from the fusion weapon get absorbed, turned into heat, and then into kinetic energy in the form of a blast wave. A 20 megaton nuke at point blank would vaporize an aircraft carrier because its directly in the fireball, and at a distance the blast wave would capsize the ship (x-rays would of course also radiation kill the crew). But in space there is no medium to absorb the gamma rays, no atmosphere to create a blast wave (which is why all explosives are effected, incidentally). To the human eye, the only thing distinguishing a nuke from a conventional explosive is the brightness of the initial explosion and the fact the casing would be vaporized rather than fragmented. A nuke would look like an unbelievably bright flash of light, and most of that light would be in spectra we can't even see, like x-rays. At point blank range, a ship would be destroyed not because its in the fireball because there is no fireball. Instead, its hull would warp from thermal shock as it absorbed a massive amount of energy from light itself, and the innards would be irradiated with gamma rays. At a greater distance, the ship would most likely be radiation killed rather than taking any structural damage at all. Square-cubed law has to be taken into account, after all. That is assuming that the bomb creates negligible shrapnel, and its likely bomb engineers would start looking into casaba howitzer technology, turning the blast into a lance of superheated plasma or firing off a shotgun blast of hypervelocity projectiles that tear targets asunder.

So Trek's torpedoes don't appear to be any more powerful than conventional missiles because they are exploding in space, and the people making the movies didn't want to blind the audience by depicting the true brightness of a multi-megaton explosion. The shields meanwhile are perfectly suited for taking explosions of this kind, because most of the energy they are absorbing is almost entirely electromagnetic. No one in Trek seems to bother with shaped charge technology for some reason. Their bombs just release energy omnidirectionally. The Plasma torpedoes the Romulans used in TOS may be an exception, but its hard to say based on the visuals.

Admittedly there may be a reason for that, and its the fact they aren't using fusion weapons. An antimatter bomb like they use in Trek would be fundamentally similar, except that there is the production of subatomic particles to account for assuming proton-antiproton annihilation; the name "photon torpedo" comes from the fact that electron-positron annihilation does produce pure electromagnetic radiation, and scientists just assumed proton-antiproton annihilation would do the same. Now we know better. Proton-antiproton annihilation releases gamma rays, neutrinos (which represent an inefficiency), electrons and positrons (which can interact and annihilate), and a bunch of other particles which decay into gamma rays after traveling a specific distance first. Basically everything but the neutrinos eventually turn into gamma rays, but not necessarily at the source of the blast. This may be important in Trek, since their shields are reportedly very good at absorbing and re-emitting electromagnetic energy safely. They may have settled on using antimatter because those subatomic particles are better at bypassing shields, necessitating the bubble-like dimensions of Trek shields (as opposed to hull-hugging shields that we know are possible) as well as a secondary layer of "defense fields" to stop the crew from being radiation killed. This may have also been determined to be better than Casaba Howitzer technology, since they can get away with using high enough yields that blasts from long distance are still very dangerous. We know that Starfleet has to dial down the yield of torpedoes in close combat, as frequently discussed in TNG, because the highest yields are so powerful even a Galaxy class Starship has to worry about crippling or destroying itself with its own torpedoes. Therefore, most of the time we see torpedoes being launched in Trek, they aren't carrying 60-64 megaton warheads. Quantum torpedoes may have represented a way of more safely delivering high yield energies rather than an increase in yield per-say. Although it could be that Starfleet cracked the secret to making sub-nuclear bombs and that's the warhead in a Quantum torpedo, but the range issue would still be there (especially because Quantum torpedoes appear to have a lower range than Photon torpedoes).

As for Transphasic torpedoes, there is no real cannonical information to go on to explain what makes them so powerful. The discussion of beta canon is interesting and all, but at the end of the day its pure technobabble. We don't really know how dependent Borg cubes truly are on structural integrity fields like Starfleet ships are. Their technology is different and as shown in Voyager not always compatible, so any beta-canon that assumes Borg technology shares the same weaknesses as Federation technology is suspect in my opinion.

[WhiteLion]

I agree, as there is not much canonical material on transphasic torpedoes it is not possible to say much. But based on the canonical material of the TV series we can say that the Borg (which are one of the most powerful races on the war plane) are not able to adapt completely, in fact when a complete rescue of torpedoes is launched, at least one hits and destroys the cube. This can lead us to think that not even the Borg can cover all the phase frequencies, which says a lot about the question, we also remember that the transphasic torpedo constantly changes the frequency and in a random way, so it is impossible to predict but only try to cover as many phase frequencies as possible, but on a complete save this is impossible. This is why I understand that it is an almost absolute weapon, not for destructive power but because it is almost impossible to avoid.
As a superior weapon in trek effectiveness, only the chronotronic torpedo comes to mind, which instead of having a variable phase field is immersed in a different temporal flow, is practically in another time, to block it would need a ship with temporal shields that he manages to synchronize on the same frequency as the chronotronic torpedo, but even here we go on the subject of the transphasic torpedo, continually varying the frequency in a random way it is very unlikely to guess it, and the price you pay in case of error is the destruction of the ship.