Babylon 5 - 20 Years Later

[Skylon]

So, yesterday marked the 20th Anniversary of the airing of Babylon 5's pilot - "The Gathering"

I remember loathing "The Gathering" and thinking it was clearly a DS9 rip-off (which had aired the previous month) - my opinions would vastly change as both shows evolved. Today, 20 years later, I feel like the show still is somewhat in the shadows of DS9, The X-Files from that time period, and that when praising nBSG nobody seemed to care to mention how B5 had broken Star Trek's mold of space-opera a decade before. Its remembered, IMHO it was good sci-fi, but the question I want to pose is, in the long-run, was it good television?

Did JMS fulfill the criteria he laid out for the series (as posted in this recent article on the show's development: http://io9.com/5985727/the-strange-secr ... -babylon-5)?

1) It would have to be good science fiction
2) It would have to be good television (rarely are scifi shows both)
3) It would have to take an adult approach to scifi and attempt to do for scifi television what Hill Street Blues did for cop shows
4) It would have to be affordable
5) It would have to look unlike anything ever seen before on TV
6) It would present not just individual stories but present those stories against a much broader canvas
(JMSNews 11/20/91)

[Havok]

I think it accomplished all but #3. That is what the X-Files did. I also don't remember taking it even remotely seriously.

[Thanas]

It is a great show that has aged very well. The CGI obviously has not, but the stories still hold a lot of power.

[Lord Revan]

It is a great show that has aged very well. The CGI obviously has not, but the stories still hold a lot of power.

I think the B5 CGI was "out of date" even when it was made to save cost, at least I remember reading something like that.

[Batman]

How, exactly, do you define 'adult approach'? 'More than space lasers and battle porn' seems a bit shallow and besides, B5 easily delivered on that. I don't remember Hill Street Blues other than the theme music was great so I can't say what it did for cop shows. So what was it that B5 would have needed to do to fulfill #3?
Personally, I watched B5 religiously when it first aired here, something I can't say for DS9. I have all the regular episodes of B5 on DVD. DS9-not so much (though them charging a fortune for Trek DVDs for a long time around here played a big part in that).
B5 started out as something DS9 needed a season and a half or thereabouts to turn into-a thoroughly interesting SciFi series.
And while I don't think the B5 CGI aged all that badly, I still play DOS games so that's probably just because I simply have really low standards.

[Enigma]

Loved B5, then and now. I wouldn't mind a reboot of the series but not necessarily sticking to the same stories.

[Argosh]

Wow, its been that long?
I caught my first episode in the middle of season 1.

[StarSword]

It is a great show that has aged very well. The CGI obviously has not, but the stories still hold a lot of power.

I think the B5 CGI was "out of date" even when it was made to save cost, at least I remember reading something like that.

Part of the problem is, all the files for the CGI got lost somehow between wrap and DVD. They wanted to re-render the CGI but would've had to reconstruct everything from the ground up.

[Skylon]

Part of the problem is, all the files for the CGI got lost somehow between wrap and DVD. They wanted to re-render the CGI but would've had to reconstruct everything from the ground up.

I wish this would happen. The problem with B5's effect was, while the show was shot in HD, all the CGI was shot in SD. Its bad enough during space battles, but the sudden drop in quality is really bad in any scene that combines live-action and CGI (PPG shots I am looking at you). Season 2 on DVD for some reason seemed to be affected particularly badly by this, especially the ISN-POV episode "And Now for a Word".

My own personal take is
1) It was good sci-fi. Finally a show pretended physics existed.
2) Mostly the stories made for good TV. Sometimes the acting left something to be desired. The production values sometimes screamed "cheap" so hard, that I feel it may have effected this, but the core stories were good TV.
3) Adult - yes. There were a couple kids (and they killed one in season 1's "Believers"), but no cute robots. It was more adult than a lot of sci-fi from the time. But humor wise - sometimes it was groan inducing. And it got worse as I think the writing chores wore on JMS (late season 4 and season 5 have some pretty eye-rolling attempts at humor).
4) Oh God. B5 screamed affordable. The sets, the CGI - so much so it may have almost hurt it in some ways. But the story was so big, it had to.
5) The CGI definitely was unlike anything seen, no matter how poorly it has dated. Some of the aliens too. It looked unique. It was a new, unique universe.
6) It definitely told stories in a broad canvas.

[Borgholio]

I miss B5...except the 5th season. It always seemed tacked on as an "afterthought". I understand why but still...

A reboot wouldn't be a bad idea if it had a bigger budget, provided they didn't shit all over the "epic multi-season plotline" style. Maybe a Sci-Fi miniseries a-la BSG?

[Stark]

If you're going to use different stories, why reboot it at all? Why not just make another epic space diplomacy tv show? (BTW others exist already, go watch them)

Is there an answer that isn't 'branding' and 'comfort food'?

[Darksider]

I miss B5...except the 5th season. It always seemed tacked on as an "afterthought". I understand why but still...

Only the latter half of the fifth season was supposed to be about the formation of the ISA. The first half was supposed to conclude the war with earth and wrap up everything left over from the main arc, with only the last few episodes showing the formation of the better future that was born out of the Babylon project and the shadow war.

Then they had to wrap up the Earth Civil War plot in season 4 due what they thought was impending cancellation, and didn't have enough ISA stories to fill out an entire season, so they had to do really crappy filler plots like Byron to pad it out.

[Borgholio]

Some of the storylines, such as the Minbari War and the Shadow are are so important to B5 that you can't leave them out. Kinda like if the BSG miniseries didn't have that minor detail about the colonies being wiped out by the Cylons...

[Darksider]

(BTW others exist already, go watch them)

Which other shows are you talking about? I'm honestly curious because I don't recall seeing other shows out there that were similar to B5.

[Stark]

So... why not tell a different story? Why do you just want to see something you've already seen with better graphics? nBSG changed heaps of BSG, and really only used the licence as a brand-loyalty sap to bring in an initial audience.

[Borgholio]

I'm not saying they should tell the exact same story, but key elements should remain. Yeah they changed a shit-ton between BSG and nBSG...skinjobs for one. But the core story was the same.

[Stark]

Yeah, the core story of 'drive around in space cause the farm burned down'. If that's your metric for 'the same', its pretty meaningless. I mean the farm burned down in Macross too. :V

[Vendetta]

To be fair they didn't burn the farm down in the original Macross until after they'd finished driving around in space, and then the last third of the series is about them putting up a new farm.

After that they drive around in space because it's cool.

[Highlord Laan]

Twenty years ago? Goddamit. Now I feel old.

[Vendetta]

Then they had to wrap up the Earth Civil War plot in season 4 due what they thought was impending cancellation, and didn't have enough ISA stories to fill out an entire season, so they had to do really crappy filler plots like Byron to pad it out.

The Byron plot was always going to be there, it was just going to be shorter. Expanding the Byron plot didn't work because it didn't really involve any of the core characters (especially since Ivanova was gone, the most rabidly anti psi-corps character), and Byron himself was an insufferably smug bellend, so no-one got invested in his conflict.

[Darksider]

Hm. If Claudia Christian hadn't left the series, maybe the Byron arc would have at least been tolerable, with her interactions giving the viewers a reason to actually give a shit. Was she the one who was originally supposed to fall for Byron, or was that always Lyta's plotline?

[Skylon]

Hm. If Claudia Christian hadn't left the series, maybe the Byron arc would have at least been tolerable, with her interactions giving the viewers a reason to actually give a shit. Was she the one who was originally supposed to fall for Byron, or was that always Lyta's plotline?

Ivanova. I've always been iffy on this because I hated Byron so damn much, I didn't want to think of Ivanova connected in any way to him. But, maybe it would have been okay.

[jollyreaper]

B5 was amazing for the time, especially when contrasted with the usual Trek cliches. And even now it really holds up. The production values can suffer in some places but not nearly as bad as Doctor Who. And it was certainly more ambitious than it had any right being. As I recall, it was one of the first shows to attempt to be a novel for television, no reset button, each episode has consequences.

I do think some of the innovation might not be appreciated as much for those who didn't grow up with what came before. When your televised scifi was limited to Trek, original BSG and Buck Rogers, B5 was a whole new universe in every way. And even with bumpy forehead aliens and soft science confessions, the emotional and political conflicts felt more authentic than in prior televised scifi.

The thing that I find surprising is how broad the appeal is. I thought it was more of a nerdy, niche show. I remember after Passing Through Gethseneme aired there were usenet posts from convents where the sisters praised how well the story was handled.

I think the most satisfying thing about rewatching B5 is that it still feels good. I've rewatched some TNG episodes I loved and man, they don't hold up as well.

[jollyreaper]

Loved B5, then and now. I wouldn't mind a reboot of the series but not necessarily sticking to the same stories.

A literal reboot is a terrible idea: just have to emphasize that. You are suggesting figurative reboot? Same universe and themes with different characters or new universe and characters? Firefly could be described as "what if there were a Star Wars prequel with Han and Chewie on the Falcon?" But by the time the Firefly verse is laid out, such a comparison is laughably limited.

I think the B5 universe is done and should be left to a well-earned rest. But I could totally go for another show with a big universe to explore, intelligent space opera done right.

[Vendetta]

As I recall, it was one of the first shows to attempt to be a novel for television, no reset button, each episode has consequences.

American live action television. Medium to long format narrative had been the norm in, for instance, TV anime since forever (at least 1974 or so, with Space Battleship Yamato, possibly the original drive around in space because the farm burned down show).