Battlestar Galactica vs Honor Harrington

[Srelex]

If the Galactica was to be placed against whatever's the best match in the HH universe for it, at the optimum range for itself, how would it fare? How would a Battlestar fare against HH weapons in general, and how would Vipers perform against HH fighters?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

If the Galactica was to be placed against whatever's the best match in the HH universe for it, at the optimum range for itself, how would it fare? How would a Battlestar fare against HH weapons in general, and how would Vipers perform against HH fighters?

Uh . . . have you even read any of the Honorverse novels? The premise of this thread is so singularly goddamned stupid that I must ask if you've actually read the source material in question.

But, because I'm feeling charitable, I'll give you the short answer: Really, really badly. The Honorverse throws around fucking gamma ray lasers, for fuck's sake. They shoot hundreds of multi-megaton missiles from tens of millions of kilometers away! Their shielding and propulsion systems are also such that to bring the Galactica into her effective range would be putting her well inside an Honorverse vessel's "impeller wedge."

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah. I think the answer is indeed "badly." I'm really not sure what the numbers are for Galactica, but I seem to recall that they're more in the "hard science fiction" range, with accelerations limited to roughly what humans can actually take, that sort of thing. Weber softened his science with a big dose of gravity manipulation technology for the Honor Harrington novels, which allows much higher accelerations and combat ranges.

Unless I'm badly mistaken about what things look like on the Galactica side of the line, that's going to be very hard for them to counter.

[Srelex]

If the Galactica was to be placed against whatever's the best match in the HH universe for it, at the optimum range for itself, how would it fare? How would a Battlestar fare against HH weapons in general, and how would Vipers perform against HH fighters?

Uh . . . have you even read any of the Honorverse novels? The premise of this thread is so singularly goddamned stupid that I must ask if you've actually read the source material in question.

But, because I'm feeling charitable, I'll give you the short answer: Really, really badly. The Honorverse throws around fucking gamma ray lasers, for fuck's sake. They shoot hundreds of multi-megaton missiles from tens of millions of kilometers away! Their shielding and propulsion systems are also such that to bring the Galactica into her effective range would be putting her well inside an Honorverse vessel's "impeller wedge."

I haven't, whic is why I'm asking.

[gizmojumpjet]

So, you started a thread to which you can't even contribute?

Good job, moron.

[Dahak]

Unless the Galactica does some ingenious tactical jumping and getting very, very lucky, I can't see them winning this. Even a measly destroyer can blast at them from well beyond Galacticas range with lasers and missiles. And I don't see Vipers getting through the PD range of a modern HH warship.
I don't want to know what the result would be against a modern SD(P)...

[Srelex]

So, you started a thread to which you can't even contribute?

Good job, moron.

I apologize for my dumbassrey; I guess I should have put more thought into it. I was merely curious.

[Serafina]

Yeah, but it is customary to at least know what you are frigging asking about.

For one, HH does not have any fighters. Their closest equivalent to fighters are modern LACs - having a crew of about 10 people, a lenght of 100+ meters and a tonnage of tens of thousands of tons.
But they are not used as fighters (they are more similar to wet-nave torpedoe boats), since they are only ~80% faster than the slowest warship (Superdreadnoughts).

(Actually, a Pinnace is propably closer (crew of 4, a mere ~250 tons), but those are not even used in battle - they are there for planetary assaults and custom duty).

The list goes on - for one, it is obvious that the Vipers would be totally useless against even a measily destroyer (which are deployed by the dozens in significant battles), since their anti-missile batteries would smash them before they are even remotely in range (they can pick of relativistic missiles at hundreds and thousands of kilometers).
Two, the Impeller wedge is so vast that any BG-ship would be crushed by thousands of Gs when it attempts to maneuver into effective range. Anyone who read even the first book would know that (since it is a small but significant plot point there).

The tremendous range and firepower advantage has already been pointed out - even if we take pre-war Havenite technology (or even pre-alliance Grayson tech which is very primitive), BG would get totally raped without even scratching any paint by a destroyer (the smallest inter-stelar warship there is) or even an LAC (which are warships in the same sense as an rowboat with dynamite).
Even IF they get into range without getting vaped by the impeller wedge, they will get blasted to bits by energy armament or just plain, old gigaton-range nukes.

Really, it's like asking how a modern-day navy would fare against 19th century Dreadnoughts (except, you know, worse - age of sail is propably more appropriate).

[Johndug]

Its my understanding that a ancient Harrington ship could just about own anything that has been depected on-screen with maybe the exception of the Empire

[Starglider]

Its my understanding that a ancient Harrington ship could just about own anything that has been depected on-screen with maybe the exception of the Empire

Honorverse ships don't have tactical FTL. Against Trek, it is at least a debate; even though the raw yields are very much in favor of HH, Trek has tactical FTL, FTL missiles, assorted special technologies and potentially numbers (vs the Dominion or AQ alliance say). Galactica's FTL is better than HH's, but it's only good for surprise attacks and retreats, it won't help in a straight-up fight.

Against the Empire, HH loses without any debate. The Empire has a massive advantage in yields, numbers, speed (STL and FTL) and special technologies.

[Mr Bean]

Lets take an example of a Harrington ship.

The Star Knight Class
The Star Knight Class is a heavy Cruiser, able to serve as the flagship of a small group of destroyers or on it's own as an independent command. It's also a 1900th PD so it's a class from the very start of the Honor Harrington books.

It has 12 missile tubes each of which can toss out a missile every two seconds mounted broadside with dozens of missiles on board. Each missile has a power flight envelope of six million kilometers and can attain a speed equal to .3 C on it's own, or .8 C if the ship it's traveling on is going fast enough to boost it. Each missile carries either a fifteen megaton megaton warhead with a "laser" mount so the nuke can be turned into six highly destructive one shot laser weapons or a forty megaton contact warhead designed to finishing off defenseless ships. The Star Knight carries over five hundred of these missiles and as noted can engage from millions of kilometers away and expect hits. With a standard accelerate of 480 G or emergency of 510 G the Star Knight can accelerate or decelerate to very high velocities much quicker than anything Galactica can put up. Now toss in wedges that make it immune. The sidewalls that make it impossible for all non beam based weapons at affect them and you have a serious issue. And that's not even getting into the laser's and grasers the Star Knight mounts of which it can fire three times in one standard second and score hits at anything under 300,000 kilometers 100% of the time with accuracy decreasing above that.

And that's just a heavy cruiser. Battlecrusiers mount twice the armorment(On average, some mount three times) the armorment of your standard heavy cruiser. Battleships mount half again that and all of their weaponry is pound for pound much more damaging (40 megaton laser warheads with 200 megaton battleship contact nukes and they still carry thousands of these missiles on board) then you get into Dreadnaught's and Superdreadnaught's which had to take an example 100 missile tubes and over eighty laser weapons each graser having the same power "as the entire broadside of a cruiser". The superdreadnaught's are built for toughness and take an incribile amount of punishment to go down. And you want to put em up against Galatica? Yeah...

Might as well throw a Star Destroyer at the old girl. At least she is sure to die on the first volley.

*Edit an Honorverse do have tactile FTL but face the serious limitation that they can't use it in system and when they reconfigure to jump they lose 90% of their shielding except directly ahead and behind.

[Dahak]

Honorverse ships don't have tactical FTL.

Which they so rarely use that the Picard Manoeuvre is actually a stunning tactical feat...

[Serafina]

Small correction:
Missiles are not affected by the normal speed limit of ships (.8c), which is due to radiation shielding failing after that point.
You do not really have to worry about that with missiles, so missiles can safely go above .9c (IIRC, missile speed of .95c are stated) if the ship travels at it's maximum speed.

Which, of course, makes nearly every PD utterly useless, since targeting/hitting something like that is next to impossible.
This is one of the reasons why mobile warships can be very dangerous to unsupported fortifications.

[Imperial Overlord]

This reminds me of the similarly one sided "Federation Cruiser vs. Arbites Strike Cruiser" thread.

[Vehrec]

To be honest, combat ranges in BSG are probably inside the wedge of an Honorverse ship. And what the hell kind of tactics do you use when any acceleration you make effects your enemy just as much as you? Does the captain panic? Would rolling the wedge clear it by destroying anything stupid enough to stand still while the wave of gravity rolls over you? Will the targeting computer let you fire on something so close in?

Really, its a mixed bag. Galactica can't really do anything, but the cruiser can shoot itself dry and expend all it's fuel trying to catch Galactica in a game of tag.

[Serafina]

Really, its a mixed bag. Galactica can't really do anything, but the cruiser can shoot itself dry and expend all it's fuel trying to catch Galactica in a game of tag.

That's only true if you have a dry "meet in deep space just to shoot each other without any reason"-situation.

If one side has to defend/attack anything (a convoy, spacestation, planet, anything), then being virtually unassailable by the other side is the the advantage i would choose anytime.

[Nephtys]

HHvessels are all but immune to kinetic weaponry anyway. The way impeller wedge and gravity sidewall work make small masses at c-fractional velocities entirely pointless, because the object is deflected by a sudden (magical) force of thousands or millions of G, hundreds of kilometers away from the actual target. Given that any yahoo with a shuttle can make a c-fractional suicide run against a planet, but they can be stopped by a defense platform intercepting it, defense against projectile attack is all but impregnable. The only reasons missiles work in HHverse is either by being X-Ray laser standoff weapons, or having some magical 'sidewall penetrator' head, in the case of their nukes.

Even unshielded, HH medium warships are able to withstand megaton nuclear detonations within 1km. In one of the later books of the series (as they got progressively worse and mary-sue filled, but that's another story), an unarmored stock civilian yacht intercepted a nuclear missile with it's drive band, and survived.

However, BSG vessels aren't necessarily that slow. In the miniseries, Colonial One crosses their local star system in 7 hours, making a trip between two planets said to be across the system. That indicates some very high acceleration, given that FTL jumping was not involved in the transit. That at least indicates substantial power generation (or magic mass-reduction trick), assuming that Colonial One's acceleration is not out of the ordinary, being basically a space passenger plane and given the mass of Battlestars.

[FSTargetDrone]

However, BSG vessels aren't necessarily that slow. In the miniseries, Colonial One crosses their local star system in 7 hours, making a trip between two planets said to be across the system. That indicates some very high acceleration, given that FTL jumping was not involved in the transit. That at least indicates substantial power generation (or magic mass-reduction trick), assuming that Colonial One's acceleration is not out of the ordinary, being basically a space passenger plane and given the mass of Battlestars.

Yeah, all indications are that Colonial One is just a stock passenger liner. I don't think it had any kind of defenses at all at the outset, not even built-in defensive electronic gear. When it left Galactica for the return trip to Caprica it was carrying some gear taken from Galatica that Lee was able to use to foil a missile attack.

[Simon_Jester]

Lets take an example of a Harrington ship.

The Star Knight Class
The Star Knight Class is a heavy Cruiser, able to serve as the flagship of a small group of destroyers or on it's own as an independent command. It's also a 1900th PD so it's a class from the very start of the Honor Harrington books.

Since the definition of what qualifies as a "heavy cruiser" varies between settings, it's also worth stating that a Star Knight weighs in at about three hundred thousand tons, is about 500 meters long and 50-60 meters in diameter. Honorverse ships are roughly cylindrical, if that's an aid to visualization.

Honorverse ships don't have tactical FTL.

Which they so rarely use that the Picard Manoeuvre is actually a stunning tactical feat...

That's mostly because there are few situations where it's useful. It can't be used in the habitable belt of a star system at all, and ships in normal space can't communicate with ships in hyperspace. Plus the hyperspace jumps tend to take something like minutes to calculate.

So except for preplanned maneuvers with designated relay to alert the guys lurking in hyperspace, tactical use of FTL is generally more trouble than it's worth for them.

[Dahak]

Honorverse ships don't have tactical FTL.

Which they so rarely use that the Picard Manoeuvre is actually a stunning tactical feat...

That's mostly because there are few situations where it's useful. It can't be used in the habitable belt of a star system at all, and ships in normal space can't communicate with ships in hyperspace. Plus the hyperspace jumps tend to take something like minutes to calculate.

So except for preplanned maneuvers with designated relay to alert the guys lurking in hyperspace, tactical use of FTL is generally more trouble than it's worth for them.

"They" = Star Trek.
Star Trek may have the capability, but they rarely use it for reasons unknown...

[Starglider]

Honorverse ships don't have tactical FTL.

Which they so rarely use that the Picard Manoeuvre is actually a stunning tactical feat...

Star Trek ships use tactical FTL all the time. Fleet actions always seem to occur at impulse, but if you watch DS9 many, many episodes consist of ships chasing each other and often shooting at each other at warp speeds. The only remarkable thing about the Picard Manoeuvre is the extremely close range at which it was performed (it is irrelevant if the enemy is using FTL sensors anyway). 'Tactical' does not mean 'warp strafing', it means any use of FTL within the context of an engagement, as opposed to just getting to the relevant system.

HH battles occur at long ranges, sometimes extending over significant portions of a solar system. This is ample opportunity for Trek ships to zip about at hundreds of c, choosing optimal tactical positions, while the HH ships lumber around at sublight speeds. In particular HH missile spam will be rendered useless by the fact that FTL ships can just warp out of range of the missiles. There's still the one to two order of magnitude firepower disparity, but I highly doubt HH point defence will be able to engage photon torpedoes as while they may have FTL sensors they have no experience with FTL missiles.

[Terralthra]

Honorverse ships don't have tactical FTL.

Which they so rarely use that the Picard Manoeuvre is actually a stunning tactical feat...

Star Trek ships use tactical FTL all the time. Fleet actions always seem to occur at impulse, but if you watch DS9 many, many episodes consist of ships chasing each other and often shooting at each other at warp speeds. The only remarkable thing about the Picard Manoeuvre is the extremely close range at which it was performed (it is irrelevant if the enemy is using FTL sensors anyway). 'Tactical' does not mean 'warp strafing', it means any use of FTL within the context of an engagement, as opposed to just getting to the relevant system.

HH battles occur at long ranges, sometimes extending over significant portions of a solar system. This is ample opportunity for Trek ships to zip about at hundreds of c, choosing optimal tactical positions, while the HH ships lumber around at sublight speeds. In particular HH missile spam will be rendered useless by the fact that FTL ships can just warp out of range of the missiles. There's still the one to two order of magnitude firepower disparity, but I highly doubt HH point defence will be able to engage photon torpedoes as while they may have FTL sensors they have no experience with FTL missiles.

Photon torpedoes are FTL? Since when?

[Simon_Jester]

HH battles occur at long ranges, sometimes extending over significant portions of a solar system. This is ample opportunity for Trek ships to zip about at hundreds of c, choosing optimal tactical positions, while the HH ships lumber around at sublight speeds. In particular HH missile spam will be rendered useless by the fact that FTL ships can just warp out of range of the missiles. There's still the one to two order of magnitude firepower disparity, but I highly doubt HH point defence will be able to engage photon torpedoes as while they may have FTL sensors they have no experience with FTL missiles.

What's really going to screw them is that they're used to being able to detect enemy missiles and ships by looking for the massive gravity distortions created by the drives used in their setting. That's a highly specific sort of sensor, and their only FTL sensor available, but Star Trek ships and weapons aren't likely to trigger it.

The Trekkers will run into trouble if they try to close to their typical combat ranges, though, because that's inside the Honorverse ships' energy range, and they have big energy weapons. But conversely, they'll do extremely well if they can warp in front of or behind the Honorverse ships and hit them with guided torpedoes from extreme range. They can practically ignore the missile storms; it's (in a great inversion of what typical Honorverse combat looks like) the beam weapons that are the real threat.

[Mr Bean]

You run into twp serious issues there. Honorverse beam weapons are equivalent to Star Trek ships on the low end ships. On high end ships they are superior. There are dozens of such weapons designed to cover all aspects of ship not covered by the ships own wedge. And they are designed to fire at targets flying around at .9c and score hits. Their refire rates are measured in the half a second mark. Each graser by what we've seen of Star Trek shielding is probably as effective it no more on the lighter ships than Star Trek phasers and disruptor.

And the second issue, that's not how Star Trek ships fight. It always comes down to it, in all canon Star Trek fights we seen. They are close range affairs, even if they can fight at long range. Harrington short range fights are 400,000 kilometer affairs or ten earth lengths away. Have we seen anything similar from Star Trek? No? Yeah... tatical FTL does not come into it unless they are using it to run away. If they close anywhere within the C/second limit they are going to run into energy weapons as strong or much stronger than Stark Trek weapons. Now add in the fact that such weapons fire twice a second not once every five seconds. Meaning any ship that closes that 400,000km limit is in for hits that will shred it. And don't even get me started on thinking you can use missile weapons against the Harrington verse ships. These ships on the low end are used to dealing with volumes of fire of dozens of missiles a time. Even a thirty two missile wave was stopped cold by a Star Knight's defenses. The heavier ships can deal with missile waves of several hundred. And if we are talking late stage Harrington ships with the Pod Designs, your talking tens of thousands of missiles it's expected to be able to deal with.

[Samuel]

I thought the Picard Maneuver was rare because it relies on an opponent not having FTL sensors and most of the foes the Federation fights have FTL sensors.